EPD Questions

[ollie]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

Ollie:

You are one of the few people I have heard of who shun the use of EPDs and yet embrace modern science by using ultrasound technology. I would like to hear more about your selection program.

My selection process is knowing what your breeding for , your goal. Using objective data to find the candidate for your breeding program with a pedigree that backs up the data . Visually apraising the bull to screen for genetic faults. It is certainly not the only way but it is what I prefer. Relative to your statement ; ultrasound fits my method but epd's don't.

 

[Campground Cattle]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

Ollie:

You are one of the few people I have heard of who shun the use of EPDs and yet embrace modern science by using ultrasound technology. I would like to hear more about your selection program.

My selection process is knowing what your breeding for , your goal. Using objective data to find the candidate for your breeding program with a pedigree that backs up the data . Visually apraising the bull to screen for genetic faults. It is certainly not the only way but it is what I prefer. Relative to your statement ; ultrasound fits my method but epd's don't.

Ollie I tend to agree with you after the AHA stole my epd's. I am not sure I reap any benefit out of running registered cattle anymore other than they are good. I have thought this over long and hard I can see no reason for anyone starting out or staying with Registered Herefords that is a small operation. As you can tell I am very disapointed with the AHA, no thats a lie I'm p.issed. Visual and my records are all I have.

 

[Michelle Pankonien]

For the person who made the comment that you can compare animals of the same breed from different herds, you are full of poo

Yes within a breed there are many simmilarities, but there are huge differences as well

Animals that are raised by different methods, ie. forage v grain development, this is a huge factor that needs to be considered when you look at over all performance, you also need to be able to take age into consideration, the fact that 18 month old bulls are sahedding their disiduous teeth plays a factor in their ability to eat and maintain their body condition, A bull fed out on high concentrates will also fall apart when turned out on cows on forage if not adjusted to a farage based diet

Yep EPD's will give you an idea of average performance expected from an animal based on his initial performance and the predictable performance produced from their parrents and other relatives

 

[dun]

For the person who made the comment that you can compare animals of the same breed from different herds, you are full of poo

Yes within a breed there are many simmilarities, but there are huge differences as well

Animals that are raised by different methods, ie. forage v grain development, this is a huge factor that needs to be considered when you look at over all performance, you also need to be able to take age into consideration, the fact that 18 month old bulls are sahedding their disiduous teeth plays a factor in their ability to eat and maintain their body condition, A bull fed out on high concentrates will also fall apart when turned out on cows on forage if not adjusted to a farage based diet

Yep EPD's will give you an idea of average performance expected from an animal based on his initial performance and the predictable performance produced from their parrents and other relatives

A neigbor went to FL last year and bought a really good bull, looked great. When he got him up here on fescue we pretty much fell apart. After his second breeding season he's finally adapting and is starting to look pretty good again. But his calves from the local cows are really good. He was no hot house flower that had been pampered, just not adapted to this forage base. And believe it or not, his calves have fallen right into the type of spread that you would expect from his EPDs. If you would have seen him after a couple of months up here you would have wanted to shoot him and not admit that anyone actaully was willing to pay money for him.

dun

 

[Frankie]

Michelle said:

"For the person who made the comment that you can compare animals of the same breed from different herds, you are full of poo"

I'm the person who said that and I'm not full of poo. You are not knowledgable about EPDs. If you're raising seedstock, you should be embarrased to post something like this.

"Yes within a breed there are many simmilarities, but there are huge differences as well"

Agree. And EPDs are the best tool to indentify the animals that will work for an individual breeder.

"Animals that are raised by different methods, ie. forage v grain development, this is a huge factor that needs to be considered when you look at over all performance,"

But that has nothing to do with EPDs. Ever hear the term "contemporary group?" When performance data is reported to the AHIR (Angus Herd Improvement Records), calves are grouped into a contemporary group. They are within 90 days of each other and managed the same.

"you also need to be able to take age into consideration, the fact that 18 month old bulls are sahedding their disiduous teeth plays a factor in their ability to eat and maintain their body condition"

Weaning data on a contemporary group is adjusted to a common endpoint (205) days. Yearling weights are adjusted to 365 days. Frankly, I don't care how an 18 month old bull performs and don't know of any breed association that collects data on 18 month old bulls. My goal is to produce bulls that will sire calves that will be dead long before they're 18 months old!

"A bull fed out on high concentrates will also fall apart when turned out on cows on forage if not adjusted to a farage based diet"

So what if he falls apart? His genetics don't change. As Dun pointed out in his post, his looks have very little to do with his ability to produce good (or sorry) calves.

"Yep EPD's will give you an idea of average performance expected from an animal based on his initial performance and the predictable performance produced from their parrents and other relatives"

No, EPDs don't tell you anything about "average performance." Your entire post shows you are totally missing the point of EPDs. EPDs take performance data on thousands of young animals, run it through a complicted math program which includes heritability estimates, and gives you the EXPECTED genetic worth of that animal. If you breed bull A with a WW of 40 to your cows, you would EXPECT those calves to weigh 40 more pounds at weaning than if you bred those same cows to bull B with a WW EPD of 0. That's what EPDs do. It has nothing to do with how those two bulls were managed or how old they are. It has to do with their genetic potential, based on performance data from thousands of relatives.

 

[PATB]

EPD's are just another selection tool to be used in selecting animals. If you are using AI, EPD's allow you compare bulls of the same breed. When selecting AI sires I always look at the breeder, parents of the bull and there EPD's and all other data I can get my hands on. On average EPD's have predicted the average of there offspring compared to other bulls. Occaisionally you get an animal where the mother nature threw a curve ball, good or bad.

 

[txag]

For the person who made the comment that you can compare animals of the same breed from different herds, you are full of poo

Yes within a breed there are many simmilarities, but there are huge differences as well

Animals that are raised by different methods, ie. forage v grain development, this is a huge factor that needs to be considered when you look at over all performance, you also need to be able to take age into consideration, the fact that 18 month old bulls are sahedding their disiduous teeth plays a factor in their ability to eat and maintain their body condition, A bull fed out on high concentrates will also fall apart when turned out on cows on forage if not adjusted to a farage based diet

Yep EPD's will give you an idea of average performance expected from an animal based on his initial performance and the predictable performance produced from their parrents and other relatives

Michelle,

Frankie's correct on this issue....not full of poo.

epd's can be used to compare animals of the same breed in different herds.....more so than visual appraisal. epd calculations take into account management (when you send in records, you indicate whether the animals were creeped or fed) as well as area of the country.

18 month old bulls losing teeth has nothing to do with epd's. epd's are an estimate of how his progeny should perform based on his individual data as well as all the data on any ancestors and relatives.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Unless your a member of the AHA they stink at best, my epds were stolen. No small time operation should even look at reg Herefords until the AHA recants madintory TPR to get your epds. I had epds when I went to raising reg Herefords I can no longer get them unless I particapate in a costly program that is not practical for the small cattleman. The AHA can put TPR where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[txag]

Unless your a member of the AHA they stink at best, my epds were stolen. No small time operation should even look at reg Herefords until the AHA recants madintory TPR to get your epds. I had epds when I went to raising reg Herefords I can no longer get them unless I particapate in a costly program that is not practical for the small cattleman. The AHA can put TPR where the sun doesn't shine.

i'm not going to defend the AHA on TPR. it is not one of the best things they've done. i will defend epd's and if you wish to use them or to offer them to your customers, then you have to bite the bullet & participate in TPR. even if you choose not to participate, you can still use epd's on any bulls you purchase from breeders who do participate.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Unless your a member of the AHA they stink at best, my epds were stolen. No small time operation should even look at reg Herefords until the AHA recants madintory TPR to get your epds. I had epds when I went to raising reg Herefords I can no longer get them unless I particapate in a costly program that is not practical for the small cattleman. The AHA can put TPR where the sun doesn't shine.

i'm not going to defend the AHA on TPR. it is not one of the best things they've done. i will defend epd's and if you wish to use them or to offer them to your customers, then you have to bite the bullet & participate in TPR. even if you choose not to participate, you can still use epd's on any bulls you purchase from breeders who do participate.

Txag you and I are in a little different boat it might be cost effective for larger operations that have a spring and fall calving seasons. I can't afford to do that I run my bull with the girls year round. I can't afford to switch back and forth. The AHA did not consider the little guy and there a lot of us. In going to TPRt he AHA was just follwoing Angus. Your right about biting the bullet they really messed up a niche market for me. Thats the reason British Whites are slowly moving in. The AHA was totally wrong in the way TPR was forced on us, the big boys were just trying to make it harder on the little guy. I love Herefords I hate the AHA please tell me what service do I recieve for my dues (which are the same as yours) and reg fees other than a piece of paper with a Bull S.hit name on it.

 

[txag]

Campground,

i've already said i won't defend AHA on TPR. i know where you're coming from. before TPR i had some old show heifers & their offspring registered in my name. it wasn't many and i was paying the same $100 activation fee/year as the ranch was with many more head. i then transferred everything in my name to the ranch name to save myself the activation fee.

as for what the AHA does for you? advertising and promotion......exactly what a breed association should do for its members. there are lots of good ads out there w/pics of hereford bulls. some of them on black cows showing baldy calves. CHB has made some great strides in increasing the demand for hereford beef and i think will continue to do so.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Campground,

i've already said i won't defend AHA on TPR. i know where you're coming from. before TPR i had some old show heifers & their offspring registered in my name. it wasn't many and i was paying the same $100 activation fee/year as the ranch was with many more head. i then transferred everything in my name to the ranch name to save myself the activation fee.

as for what the AHA does for you? advertising and promotion......exactly what a breed association should do for its members. there are lots of good ads out there w/pics of hereford bulls. some of them on black cows showing baldy calves. CHB has made some great strides in increasing the demand for hereford beef and i think will continue to do so.

Your right on CHB, epd's and TPR is just a subject that gets me hotter than a two dollar pistol.

 

[PATB]

What is TPR? Is that like the red angus that have total herd reporting?

 

[Campground Cattle]

What is TPR? Is that like the red angus that have total herd reporting?

This is kinda of long didn't post it all

Effective January 1, 2001, AHA has chosen to implement a Whole Herd TPRTM Reporting system for breeders choosing to maintain performance registry records. Whole Herd TPRTM Reporting is a system of registration and performance tracking whereby every participating breeder updates his/her cowherd inventory annually and is charged for performance data on a per cow basis as opposed to a per calf basis. The system is positively endorsed by the Beef Improvement Federation, a North American umbrella organization of beef breed associations, beef producers, researchers and the academic community. With this system, AHA will be able to measure economically relevant beef production traits such as fertility, longevity and reproductive efficiency. Furthermore, the greater volume of data reported from each herd for measured growth and carcass traits will enhance the accuracy of Hereford EPD's.

Participation in Whole Herd TPRTM is voluntary and breeders may choose to maintain pedigree records without recording performance information if they wish. With this option, known as Pedigree Registry, breeders will not see EPD's or other performance information printed on their registry certificates nor will it otherwise be available after December 31, 2001. Breeders participating in the pedigree registry option will no longer receive herd inventories and will be required to use the eight digit registry number rather than a herd ID to register an animal.

HOW TO PARTICIPATE IN WHOLE HERD TPRTM

1. Performance breeders of record as of December 1, 2000 received a copy of their current herd inventory as of that date with instructions for continuing with the new program. New participants should request a current dam inventory for their account from AHA.

2. Complete the form for all cows and breeding age heifers (as well as herd sires if you choose the option of a sire inventory) expected to be represented by a calf during the next 12 months.

3. For each animal inventoried, provide the herd ID number, registration number, name and date calved.

4. Designate each female as either fall or spring calving.

5. Mail the completed inventory form to the AHA. Retain a copy for your records. Your account will be billed $5 per female per year or $2.50 for first calf heifers.

 

[PATB]

Thank you for the explaination. TPR is similiar to the red angus whole herd reporting but with a cheaper fee structure.

I like the idea of whole herd reporting but not as implemented by the AHA. I agree with you that a 2 season calving choice does not fit everyones needs.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Thank you for the explaination. TPR is similiar to the red angus whole herd reporting but with a cheaper fee structure.

I like the idea of whole herd reporting but not as implemented by the AHA. I agree with you that a 2 season calving choice does not fit everyones needs.

The thing that chaped my butt is one day I get a letter you have to raise your cattle this way to get your epds. I shopped all through the South for some great bloodlines and epds payed thousands for cows for the foundation herd . I tried TPR with my operation I was constantly pening cattle to meet their reporting schedule. The only way I could see to get all the data in and be cost effective was lie. I couldn't go there so I was forced to become a pedigree breeder. It really chaps me that I pay the same dues as the TPR breeders but I can not have epds on calves anymore. I still own cows that have epds but their calves don't qualify.
Sorry for getting on my soapbox about the AHA. They wont even discuss some changes to help the smaller operations.

 

[txag]

It really chaps me that I pay the same dues as the TPR breeders but I can not have epds on calves anymore

you pay the same dues but you don't have to pay the $5/cow or $2.50/heifer herd inventory. we're paying the $5/cow on most of the cows running w/brangus bulls as well on the off-chance that we may want to put them back with a hereford bull which we did on one group this year.

as for year-round calving....no, that probably wouldn't work w/TPR but you also don't need 2 calving seasons. we only have a spring calving season & it works out fine.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Txag your right about the five dollars and 250. You and the other Hereford breeders are being held hostage by the AHA, before 2001 we were able to get our epds without paying ransom. But if the Hereford breeders would stand up to the AHA and refuse to participate in TPR maybe they would be more willing to listen and develop a more workable program for all.

Nuff said

 

[txag]

Txag your right about the five dollars and 250. You and the other Hereford breeders are being held hostage by the AHA, before 2001 we were able to get our epds without paying ransom. But if the Hereford breeders would stand up to the AHA and refuse to participate in TPR maybe they would be more willing to listen and develop a more workable program for all.

Nuff said

if we only sold bulls and females to commercial cattleman, we might have considered not participating. because we sell to other registered breeders, epd's are an important part of our marketing & breeding program. right or wrong, trying to sell an animal in a production or consignment sale without epd's can cost you some valuable dollars.

keep in mind....i'm still not defending TPR.......just stating how it came about. if i remember right, the decision to go to TPR was made by the board of directors. just like some of the laws passed by our elected officials, we may not agree with them, but we did elect them & we live with their decisions. it wasn't just a decision made by the folks in Kansas City, but by the directors who hopefully took in a majority of the breeders' opinions. yes, the big breeders probably had more input & emphasis but it's always that way. any time we vote, the votes are weighted by the number of calves you register (kind of like the electoral college).

 

[dun]

(kind of like the electoral college).

Did algore invent TPR too?

dun