EPD Questions

[ollie]

Seems to me you have to defend Krebs. He was registering dead ones. Just because he got caught dosn't mean he was the only one. Why don't you address the ratio cows in most herds

 

[Frankie]

Seems to me you have to defend Krebs. He was registering dead ones. Just because he got caught dosn't mean he was the only one. Why don't you address the ratio cows in most herds

Krebs is perfectly able to defend himself. I don't doubt there are cheaters out there. But the AAA does their best to make cheating unprofitable. What ratio cows???

You apparently don't uderstand how EPS are meant to work. You apparently don't want to know how they work. You just want to pick at the AAA. That's what losers do, pick on the winners.

 

[ollie]

[ losers] It would seem to me if you have the moral high ground you say you do that you wouldn't stoop to name calling but would divulge the overwhelming facts of your case. I have angus cows and am not picking at the AAA but attacking the merits if epd's . The epd breeding happens in all breeds . Even in this thread recomendations have been made as to what type of epd this man should use without even knowing the goals or targets of his breeding program. There is a new class of stockman that thinks epds will be sufficient to build a program around . In that respect especially I think epd's do more harm than good. When you have virtually everyone else on your side don't be aragont and petty.

 

[certherfbeef]

It would seem to me if you have the moral high ground you say you do that you wouldn't stoop to name calling but would divulge the overwhelming facts of your case.

Ollie, it seems to me that Frankie has done everything is his power to help you understand the use of EPD's as he sees them. But your constant pushing and shoveing of the issue has pushed him over the edge. He has done an excellent job of explaining and seems that you refuse to HEAR it. You may listen but you do not hear. Every one is entitled to an opinion, that is what makes this country great. But a person can only handle so much. Frankie has been more than patient with you.

 

[la4angus]

Even in this thread recomendations have been made as to what type of epd this man should use without even knowing the goals or targets of his breeding program. There is a new class of stockman that thinks epds will be sufficient to build a program around . In that respect especially I think epd's do more harm than good. When you have virtually everyone else on your side don't be aragont and petty.

This is the reason that people should make an effort to understand epd's and learn how to use them.
No one EPD is right for all herds or even all individuals in a herd.

 

[txag]

ollie, i agree w/certherfbeef. while i intentionally stayed out of this thread, you and i have "discussed" epd's previously as well and i think frankie's been more patient than i would have been.

i would guess there is much more cheating and lieing on actual weights and changing birth dates than there is on epd's. at least w/epd's you have the honest breeders sending in data and info which eventually will override any manipulation you feel occurs in "closed herds" or with "ratio dams".

 

[Frankie]

[ losers] It would seem to me if you have the moral high ground you say you do that you wouldn't stoop to name calling but would divulge the overwhelming facts of your case. I have angus cows and am not picking at the AAA but attacking the merits if epd's . The epd breeding happens in all breeds . Even in this thread recomendations have been made as to what type of epd this man should use without even knowing the goals or targets of his breeding program. There is a new class of stockman that thinks epds will be sufficient to build a program around . In that respect especially I think epd's do more harm than good. When you have virtually everyone else on your side don't be aragont and petty.

Where have I claimed to have "the moral high ground"? You try to put words in my mouth that I didn't say, just as you suggest EPDs can be used for things they're not designed to be used for (prediciting what a calf will weigh.) I came on this thread to possibly help someone understand EPDs. From previous threads, I believe you don't WANT to understand EPDs. I've never claimed EPDs are magic; neither does the AAA. They are an additional tool for the commercial cattleman. Years ago we went to the first bull sale of some friends. Since we weren't looking for a bull, we took a seat in the stands early. A couple of men in overalls came and set down near us with their catalogs marked with their bull choices. One of them turned to my friend and asked if he knew what "those numbers" meant. He explained about comparing one bull to another by using EPDs. You could see these guy's eyes light up when they grasped this new tool available for them to evaluate bulls. They looked their selections over and said, we better go look again. I didn't see them again, so I don't know if they got a bull bought or not, but at least they had a working knowledge of EPDs after that few minute discussion. I don't believe there are many cattlemen who breed by EPDs alone. Frankly, I don't see how they can stay in business if they ignore other important traits like fertility and soundness that Angus EPDs don't identify.

Please forgive me if I've come across as "arrogant and petty."

 

[ollie]

It is always nice to have that one good friend to tell you when your wrong. It seems in this case I have three.
Frankie , you know from previous discussions that I am not looking for an education but rather a discussion to format my opinion that epd's are a comparison tool not a selection tool , an opinion of which I am still convinced.
For being too pushy and shovey I ask your forgiveness and in the future I will frame my discussion in a more forthright and positive format.
Ollie

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

I've heard of guys who once they've got their bull calves selected that they are going to keep for sale, throw them in with dairy cows to maximize the milk they get and creep feed the heck out of them to get their weaning weight up. As a cow-calf guy, that along with birth weight and frame score, is the EPD I pay closest attention to, so that concerns me a bit. But I guess part of it is knowing the producer you are dealing with. Incidentally, I was reading the other day that the average seedstock producer has been in the business less than 7 years. Interesting, eh?

 

[dun]

comparison tool not a selection tool

You don't make selections based on comparisons?

dun

 

[la4angus]

Once again I will have to say that the performance of one animal will not make one iota of difference in the EPD. The EPD's are made up of a compilation of hundreds or even thousands of animals related to the individual animal that the EPD's are calculated for

I've heard of guys who once they've got their bull calves selected that they are going to keep for sale, throw them in with dairy cows to maximize the milk they get and creep feed the heck out of them to get their weaning weight up. ?

 

[ollie]

comparison tool not a selection tool

You don't make selections based on comparisons?

dun

i know what a good one is without anything else compared if that is what you mean.
If I were choosing between to similiar animals I would maybe use epd's as an additional tool to help pick. I still think dun that like kind breeds like kind. I do not think that like numbers produce like kind.While like weaning weight epds may if the accuracy is high enough produce like weaning weight , there can be alot of difference in the quality of two 500 pound calves

 

[dun]

comparison tool not a selection tool

You don't make selections based on comparisons?

dun

i know what a good one is without anything else compared if that is what you mean.
If I were choosing between to similiar animals I would maybe use epd's as an additional tool to help pick. I still think dun that like kind breeds like kind. I do not think that like numbers produce like kind.While like weaning weight epds may if the accuracy is high enough produce like weaning weight , there can be alot of difference in the quality of two 500 pound calves

I must not have as educated an eye. I can't tell by looking how a bulls calves will marble or how well his daughters will calve or milk. I guess I just need another 40 years in the business so I can catch on to those skills.

dun

 

[ollie]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

 

[dun]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

That's the point, EPDs are a tool. Trying to build a house with only a screwdriver and hammer would be a real challenge. Judging what cattle can do for you without using all the tools available makes it pretty much a crapshoot.
We have one particular cow out of a very high milking cow, everybody that sees the younger one just go nuts about what a great looking cow she is. Built identical to her mother, appears to have as much milk and yet her calves, no matter who she's bred to turn out to be little dainty slow growers that wean light. Once they hit 15-16 months they grow like crazy, but I'm not going to keep them that long. She is headed down the road when we do the fall workup, going to the slaughter pen. I've had a couple of people ask about buying her for their herds because they think she'll really add something. She'll add something alright. Disappointment, anger and one less customer to sell stock to.

dun

 

[ollie]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

That's the point, EPDs are a tool. Trying to build a house with only a screwdriver and hammer would be a real challenge. Judging what cattle can do for you without using all the tools available makes it pretty much a crapshoot.
We have one particular cow out of a very high milking cow, everybody that sees the younger one just go nuts about what a great looking cow she is. Built identical to her mother, appears to have as much milk and yet her calves, no matter who she's bred to turn out to be little dainty slow growers that wean light. Once they hit 15-16 months they grow like crazy, but I'm not going to keep them that long. She is headed down the road when we do the fall workup, going to the slaughter pen. I've had a couple of people ask about buying her for their herds because they think she'll really add something. She'll add something alright. Disappointment, anger and one less customer to sell stock to.

dun

How are her epd's as compared to her mother/

 

[dun]

How are her epd's as compared to her mother/

Commercial cows. But the old cows other daughters by known bulls with good EPDs for milk, growth and calving are more then pulling their weight. Her sons grade high choice. Just about what would be expected from an average cow bred to bulls with the numbers that will compliment her.

dun

 

[beef]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

Ollie:

You are one of the few people I have heard of who shun the use of EPDs and yet embrace modern science by using ultrasound technology. I would like to hear more about your selection program.

 

[dun]

I've never been able to tell how well they will marble and neither can you by epd's that is why I use modern technology called ultrasound data. I can look at their mothers when it comes to milk . If it is a logistic problem with looking at their mother and I don't know anyone who has his daughters then I guess epd would be all you could use.

Ollie:

You are one of the few people I have heard of who shun the use of EPDs and yet embrace modern science by using ultrasound technology. I would like to hear more about your selection program.

I'm afraid we may have lost ollie

dun

 

[la4angus]

I'm afraid we may have lost ollie dun

I seriously doubt that.