Does more pounds per acre make up for being docked at the sale barn for small frame size?

[Travlr]

I practice rotational grazing but not to the extent I would like yet but I'm getting there. Every time someone who practices continuous grazing sees my pastures they always say "you need more cows, you've got alot of grass". Guy who limed my pasture commented the other day how much grass I have and how good it is even though we have been in a drought, I told him it is contributed to the rotational grazing. But then he procedes to ask if it's really worth the trouble? Yeah it is, not really alot of trouble and I have good grass when others don't. That always amazes me that people can see the results and brag about how good my grass is but can't buy into rotational grazing. The proof is in the pudding, my grass survives drought because it has deep roots and the rain I receive infiltrates into the soil at a higher rate instead of running off.

And let's not forget that rotational grazing can allow for cutting enough hay to winter the livestock.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We didn't this year because of the spring drought we had. But, normally, we have to hay 10-15 acres of our 75 because the spring grass gets ahead of us.

 

[Brute 23]

The problem I see with negativity toward rotating is they are still over stocked so they don't see the results.

 

[Travlr]

Trouble?? We open a gate and call the cows. They have learned to follow us thru fields to get to another one or just up a lane way.

Yup, once the cows know the routine there is no effort other than opening a gate and yelling. They come like a bunch of drunk teenagers to a fresh keg.

Rotational grazing is only trouble at first figuring out how to get WATER to all locations. We don't. We have 1 water souce. Cattle come to the water - laneways all to the different paddocks.

We set ours up the same way. One water source in a place where they can be contained for changing pastures and to make it easy for catching them so they can be managed as necessary.

We don't do "intensive" rotation - we rotate every 2-5 days, depending on the paddock and the grass source. "I" think the number ONE rule is - don't let them graze over 7 days in any one spot.
We just moved them to a 30 acre hay field for 3rd cutting. Wasn't much there, but they will get several weeks out of it - maybe close to a month.

Huh? Not sure how "number one rule is - don't let them graze in any one spot." works with, "they will get several weeks out of it... "

This is one place I disagree with in the rotational grazing area. I let my cattle graze the pasture down. If they aren't eating all of it down, they are leaving the stuff that isn't as good to propagate and spread. If they eat it all down, then the better forage has a better chance to flourish. And I plant self seeding grasses as much as possible. The cows work the seed into the soil. I probably averaged three or more weeks per pasture. Of course it's important to not leave the cows so long that they are eating dirt. Not good for the grass... or the cows. But again, if the cows aren't eating down the weeds they are being rotated too soon.

 

[Silver]

But again, if the cows aren't eating down the weeds they are being rotated too soon.

I don't feel that way. When possible I like to leave the grass 4" tall or so when I move the cows out. I feel it leaves the grasses and legumes the best chance to regrow and compete with weeds while keeping the roots healthy.

Edit: drought years like this caused this theory to get thrown out the window.

 

[Travlr]

I don't feel that way. When possible I like to leave the grass 4" tall or so when I move the cows out. I feel it leaves the grasses and legumes the best chance to regrow and compete with weeds while keeping the roots healthy.

Edit: drought years like this caused this theory to get thrown out the window.

Well maybe we are closer to the same opinion than we might expect. By the time the grass is down to 4 inches the cows have been eating the weeds down. I'll stand by my results. My last ranch I brought the pastures back from being used for crops, and they were in pretty bad shape. In three years my stocking rate went up 50% and I was getting more hay.

 

[Silver]

Well maybe we are closer to the same opinion than we might expect. By the time the grass is down to 4 inches the cows have been eating the weeds down. I'll stand by my results. My last ranch I brought the pastures back from being used for crops, and they were in pretty bad shape. In three years my stocking rate went up 50% and I was getting more hay.

Your weeds must be more appealing to cows than our weeds lol

 

[chaded]

Your weeds must be more appealing to cows than our weeds lol

No they are just super cows. Triple muscle, most efficient but milk like a Holstein, eat weeds, no maintenance and wean 1000 pound calves in 6 months.

 

[bird dog]

My cows have to cross a gravel road three time to make the circuit. They learn quick. Baby calves take some effort and you have to be careful not to leave any behind. The neighbors love to watch them cross the road.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I should add that they are only getting pieces of the 30 acres. Still with the 2-5 days program.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Rotational grazing and water are my problem. Slowly but surely I'm working on plowing in summer use water lines so I can divide pastures up easier. But having 500 acres of ground spread over 12 miles with limited wells makes for a challenging project.

Then this time of year are bets are off as things freeze up having grass and thawed water in close proximity aren't always possible.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I stick with never let them graze same piece of pasture longer than 7 days.
My cattle are given a small enough area that they clean it up before I move them. How big an area depends on time of year. When we first turn out on grass, they are given the whole paddock and it will only last 1 day. Next time thru, it is split in half and each half will last 2 days. 3rd time might not graze, may wait and cut hay off that paddock.
I totally agree with them cleaning up.....but, in 2 to 5 days.
1 day grazing is only first time out early spring. If I wait until it will last 3 days, all my fields get ahead of the cattle early spring.

 

[wbvs58]

The big thing with rotational grazing is to use your eyes. I don't have the lush pastures that Jeanne has but they don't do too bad just the same. Last year I had two bull calves that weaned over 400kg (930 &902 lbs) just on grass and mothers milk to cows that maintain their working condition well and are very reliable breeders and quite a few not too far behind so my grass does not do too bad however my soil is very fragile sandy soil and hooves will rapidly pulverize the grass and roots if things are allowed to get too short so just like Jeanne my time on each paddock varies from 1 day at the moment to usually a maximum of 4 days once the growing season and rain has well and truly kicked in. I have a 650 acre scrub block that the cows will be kicked into in the next few days to give me the time interval before they start the rotation again if we don't get the forecast rain over the next few days.
I have learnt with my poor soil I have to have options to dump the cows into (scrub block) rather than flogging a dead horse. Having somewhere to put the cows in tough times is really good for my enjoyment of my hobby rather than being anxious about things. I can supplement them with canola meal or the like every 2nd day to help utilize the poorer quality feed. Most years I only use the scrub block for the dry cows over autumn and early winter but it is nice knowing it is there if needed.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ken, you are right saying you need to use your eyes. After years rotating my paddocks, I have a good feel for what to expect.
Sometimes they get the whole paddock. Sometimes same paddock is split 4 ways, but you need to move cattle based on what the field looks like.

 

[Warren Allison]

Thank you, @simme and @wbvs58 for your answers. I am understanding it a lot better now. I still l have a question or two about a couple of scenarios, but I have already taken my nightly THC gummy...my back has killed me today... and I might not be able to organize my thoughts precisely., so I will wait til tomorrow morning to ask! Right now, gonna sign off and listen to a couple of recordings a band has sent me to xceate some arrangements for them to take with them to the studio. Now this is something I can do better under the influence of THC!

Ok, so if you have say, reg Angus cows, and want to breed them to reg Simm bull, just for example, and want to report the bull's data for EPDs, you'd need to join ASA. Or, say you had a herd of reg Simms and bred them to an Angus bull you'd need to join AAA to report that bull's. Makes sense for those who do this to create their own reg Simmangus's. But, if I own a commercial herd of cows....say they are our Kudzu Corrintes..... and we used Reg Angus or Simm semen. Why would we want to join these associations to report this EPD data? Say we did use a reg Simm, and did join ASA, and reported this data. Would there be anything notated anywhere on what kind of cows these calves came from? In this case, it would sure show some low BWs, but the weaning weights are gonna be 500-550 lbs at 205 days. This could hurt that bull's numbers? Are bull owners notified if someone does this, and are asked if they want this data in their bull's EPD?

 

[GoWyo]

Ok, so if you have say, reg Angus cows, and want to breed them to reg Simm bull, just for example, and want to report the bull's data for EPDs, you'd need to join ASA. Or, say you had a herd of reg Simms and bred them to an Angus bull you'd need to join AAA to report that bull's. Makes sense for those who do this to create their own reg Simmangus's. But, if I own a commercial herd of cows....say they are our Kudzu Corrintes..... and we used Reg Angus or Simm semen. Why would we want to join these associations to report this EPD data? Say we did use a reg Simm, and did join ASA, and reported this data. Would there be anything notated anywhere on what kind of cows these calves came from? In this case, it would sure show some low BWs, but the weaning weights are gonna be 500-550 lbs at 205 days. This could hurt that bull's numbers? Are bull owners notified if someone does this, and are asked if they want this data in their bull's EPD?

If you bred all the kudzu cows to the same bull it would not affect his EPD numbers. However, if you used two registered simm bulls, say 1 on half the cows and the other bull on the other half the cows, then you would have a contemporary group to report and that data could be used in the algorithms. This is how I understand it anyway.

 

[simme]

Ok, so if you have say, reg Angus cows, and want to breed them to reg Simm bull, just for example, and want to report the bull's data for EPDs, you'd need to join ASA. Or, say you had a herd of reg Simms and bred them to an Angus bull you'd need to join AAA to report that bull's. Makes sense for those who do this to create their own reg Simmangus's. But, if I own a commercial herd of cows....say they are our Kudzu Corrintes..... and we used Reg Angus or Simm semen. Why would we want to join these associations to report this EPD data? Say we did use a reg Simm, and did join ASA, and reported this data. Would there be anything notated anywhere on what kind of cows these calves came from? In this case, it would sure show some low BWs, but the weaning weights are gonna be 500-550 lbs at 205 days. This could hurt that bull's numbers? Are bull owners notified if someone does this, and are asked if they want this data in their bull's EPD?

AAA only does epd's for registered black angus bred to registered black angus. ASA does epd's for cattle in their database regardless of breed. ASA has programs for cattle that have zero simmental blood up to fullblood. Some angus breeders also are members of ASA because they raise and register simangus cattle as well. Data submitted to ASA for calves from angus bulls or angus calves can affect ASA epd's, but that data and those epd's have ZERO effect on the epd's and data in the AAA database. Kudzu cows bred to a simmental bull - works like this. Join ASA, submit calf weaning weights, calf birth dates, dam info including age, ID/name and breed composition (like 4 year old 1/2 corrientee, 1/4 LH, 1/4 jersey, kudzu cow bessie 872). ASA will "register" the calves in the database, assign registration numbers, using as much info as you submit. What is that worth? Not much in that case imo. But if a person was convinced that they had some cattle that were special and wanted to breed up from that starting point, or develop a group with that breed composition (why?), they could get data processed into pedigrees and epd's. Maybe another example - go back 30 years. Someone crosses some good angus and simmental cattle, sees merit in those cattle and wonder if they can get pedigrees and epd's. AAA had no interest. ASA said sure, we can do that. Which association made the best choice? Maybe both as both are successful, but ASA expanded their market and influence with their decision.

ASA data on those kudzu cows would show breed composition and that figures into the data model. The weaning weight or birth weights as an absolute value don't matter in epd's. It is the difference in weights between different sire groups in the same herd that affects epd's.

An extreme example. Bull A and Bull B are used in the same herd. Calves sired by bull A weaned at 350 pounds. Calves sired by bull B wean at 400 pounds. Are those good bulls with those weaning weights? No idea, but bull B sires calves 50# heavier than bull A. That herd is grazing rocks and dirt. At another place, Bull A sires calves that wean at 650# and bull b sires calves that wean at 700#. They are on great forage and creep. Is that guy using better bulls? Do those calves get better genetics from their sires. They are the same sires as the first herd. So, no concern about hurting the epd's of a super bull by breeding to little kudzu cows. The data model don't work that way. And if all the kudzu cows are bred to the same bull, the bull's epd's won't change at all due to the weaning weights. Because there is not another sire to compare to. All the differences are attributed to the cows.

Are bull owner's notified? Like call them up and tell them that the numbers don't look good and do they want the numbers made public or swept under the rug? Not in the ASA system. It is data driven, not politics driven or fear of the truth driven. We do want the truth don't we? If someone pays $500k for a superbull, don't they still want the most accurate epd's and dna enhanced epd's regardless of whether the numbers or good or bad? Do what is best for all members and the industry?

And I see that GoWyo has already posted essentially the same conclusion.

 

[Little Joe]

I try not to leave them on a paddock more than 7 days and hope to get to 3-4 by making smaller paddocks. Smaller paddocks will make them eat the weeds better. Leaving them longer than 7 days from my experience does not increase the amount of weeds they eat, it just makes them severely overgraze the good grass. I'd like to rotate daily but don't have the time to move the poly wire that often but might eventually do that by buying several reels and setting up a weeks worth of rotations in one evening. Moving the cows themselves is definitely no problem, they come running to new grass just like they would a bucket of feed. Only issue I have is the way my place is shaped, I might have to go through several paddocks to get back to a corral and once they hit new grass they won't even follow a bucket of feed. It is rare that I would need them in the corral unplanned so the good far outweighs the bad.

 

[Warren Allison]

AAA only does epd's for registered black angus bred to registered black angus. ASA does epd's for cattle in their database regardless of breed. ASA has programs for cattle that have zero simmental blood up to fullblood. Some angus breeders also are members of ASA because they raise and register simangus cattle as well. Data submitted to ASA for calves from angus bulls or angus calves can affect ASA epd's, but that data and those epd's have ZERO effect on the epd's and data in the AAA database. Kudzu cows bred to a simmental bull - works like this. Join ASA, submit calf weaning weights, calf birth dates, dam info including age, ID/name and breed composition (like 4 year old 1/2 corrientee, 1/4 LH, 1/4 jersey, kudzu cow bessie 872). ASA will "register" the calves in the database, assign registration numbers, using as much info as you submit. What is that worth? Not much in that case imo. But if a person was convinced that they had some cattle that were special and wanted to breed up from that starting point, or develop a group with that breed composition (why?), they could get data processed into pedigrees and epd's. Maybe another example - go back 30 years. Someone crosses some good angus and simmental cattle, sees merit in those cattle and wonder if they can get pedigrees and epd's. AAA had no interest. ASA said sure, we can do that. Which association made the best choice? Maybe both as both are successful, but ASA expanded their market and influence with their decision.

ASA data on those kudzu cows would show breed composition and that figures into the data model. The weaning weight or birth weights as an absolute value don't matter in epd's. It is the difference in weights between different sire groups in the same herd that affects epd's.

An extreme example. Bull A and Bull B are used in the same herd. Calves sired by bull A weaned at 350 pounds. Calves sired by bull B wean at 400 pounds. Are those good bulls with those weaning weights? No idea, but bull B sires calves 50# heavier than bull A. That herd is grazing rocks and dirt. At another place, Bull A sires calves that wean at 650# and bull b sires calves that wean at 700#. They are on great forage and creep. Is that guy using better bulls? Do those calves get better genetics from their sires. They are the same sires as the first herd. So, no concern about hurting the epd's of a super bull by breeding to little kudzu cows. The data model don't work that way. And if all the kudzu cows are bred to the same bull, the bull's epd's won't change at all due to the weaning weights. Because there is not another sire to compare to. All the differences are attributed to the cows.

Are bull owner's notified? Like call them up and tell them that the numbers don't look good and do they want the numbers made public or swept under the rug? Not in the ASA system. It is data driven, not politics driven or fear of the truth driven. We do want the truth don't we? If someone pays $500k for a superbull, don't they still want the most accurate epd's and dna enhanced epd's regardless of whether the numbers or good or bad? Do what is best for all members and the industry?

And I see that GoWyo has already posted essentially the same conclusion.

Thanks for this explanation, @simme . You, too, @GoWyo I understand it now. For anyone who owns commercial cattle, it makes no sense and does not benefit them, to join an association and report EPD data for the bull's owner. No, if you are a sim breeder, and have Simm bulls, and you have a side project going on, crossing them with , say, Charolias or Brangus or something, or just some crossed up commercial cows, it may behoove you to report that data. But, like in our case, we kept 100-120 Corriente cows on the p[ace. We'd put in 5 or 6 bulls with them....enough to try to have them all calve in February. All of them were Scott's brother's Brangus or Ultrablack bulls....all registered...but we'd have no way of knowing which bull sired which calf. This has been an interesting thread. Thanks!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I "believe" the American Simmental Assn is the only breed association that offers this service.