Does Calf Size Matter?

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Now, I don't agree, as BW can be used to limit mature cow weight. If you select as recommended in the above quote, you will increase mature cow weight.

If, by mature cow weight, you mean frame size, I've never bought into this. I've been using 100lb+ BW bulls for several years, and my herd frame size hasn't increased at all. When I was using larger framed, low BW Simm and Maine sires on the same cows I have today, my frame sizes were jumping upwards.

Now if you mean actual cow weights, I'm not seeing a problem. If you're increasing cow weight, while leaving frame size alone, that means you're increasing the volume of those cows. Except in hot climates, this is a very good thing. There are far too many pencil gutted animals roaming around these days.

Rod

 

[Brandonm2]

Mississippi State University

7. How can I get cows to have low-birthweight calves?
The objective for any producer should be to have as large a calf as possible born to the cow without complications.

I have tremendous respect for my friends at Mississippi State; but I completely reject that statement. If a breeder can not supply me with bulls which will consistently give me a calf crop with average birth weights in the 80s AND weaning weights in the high 500s....I will find a new breeder.

 

[Brandonm2]

Or is it ignorant like Brandonm says to use a bull that weighs over or under (X)? What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far. How well are epd's predicting the difference between the bw of these calves,which should be none? BTW frankie, he's the only bull I have any interest in so far, a friend I sell some bulls to said not to cut him, he might like to use him (after hearing the whole story.) :lol: Brandon, I'll give you my friends number so you can tell him how unethical it would be for me to take his money and let him have the calf with his manhood in tact. He's kind of a nieve fella that runs about 600 cows.

I never said it was unethical too not cut the bull. I just said that I would NOT buy the bull or advise anyone else too buy the bull. Not every calf in even the best herds SHOULD be used as a bull and the ethical breeder does have some selection criteria; but if you sold him, GREAT....more power too you. Now next year when the guy has a cow that dies delivering a moose of a calf out there......hopefully the guy will remember that you told him what the birth weight was before the purchase.....and not just dawg you and your herd all over town for years.....like they like to do around here.

 

[ollie?]

Or is it ignorant like Brandonm says to use a bull that weighs over or under (X)? What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far. How well are epd's predicting the difference between the bw of these calves,which should be none? BTW frankie, he's the only bull I have any interest in so far, a friend I sell some bulls to said not to cut him, he might like to use him (after hearing the whole story.) :lol: Brandon, I'll give you my friends number so you can tell him how unethical it would be for me to take his money and let him have the calf with his manhood in tact. He's kind of a nieve fella that runs about 600 cows.

I never said it was unethical too not cut the bull. I just said that I would NOT buy the bull or advise anyone else too buy the bull. Not every calf in even the best herds SHOULD be used as a bull and the ethical breeder does have some selection criteria; but if you sold him, GREAT....more power too you. Now next year when the guy has a cow that dies delivering a moose of a calf out there......hopefully the guy will remember that you told him what the birth weight was before the purchase.....and not just dawg you and your herd all over town for years.....like they like to do around here.

The man I am talking about is a really good friend and if he had a wreck, he would know that it was a mistake that we made and go on. He knows 2 generations of stock on the bulls side and has been familiar with or seen for himself somewhere between 50 and 100 calves from the sire. He knows the dam, her progeny , shortcomings and good traits as well. Breeding cattle and buying bulls requires more than lineal thinking . You have to take every decision inside the circumstances surrounding him. As far as selling every bull, I agree with you. I usually cut almost all of them. This year will be no different. This bull won't be sold as a breeder unless he's an exceptional individual. Neither will his brothers. This same friend wanted me to save a particular bull (which was a full brother to another bull he bought the year before) but I cut him. He was too light muscled to do anyone any good.

 

[ollie?]

What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far.

There is no way EPD's can make allowances for outside influences such as an "Unrelated Surrogate Dam". Way too many variables. That's why they PE the EPD's instead of calculating them.

Remember the name:

ESTIMATED PROGENY DIFFERENCE

Mike could the range have been even greater on unrelated natural dams?The sire's epd's alone wouldn't make a set of calves more predictable than the sire and dam in a surrogate mother would they?

 

[Frankie]

To my knowledge , my breed assn. gives epd's on ET calves but they are the epd average of the sire and dam initially and unaffected by the actual weight of the calf unless the recips are registered cows of the same breed. Isn't yours the same?

As far as I know, Angus ET calves don't have any EPDs unless the recip is a registered Angus cow with her own EPDs. Then they get Interim (I) EPDs.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth frankie. Is it ignorant to discount the bull because of his BW when it's the dams fault? Or is it ignorant like Brandonm says to use a bull that weighs over or under (X)? What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far. How well are epd's predicting the difference between the bw of these calves,which should be none? BTW frankie, he's the only bull I have any interest in so far, a friend I sell some bulls to said not to cut him, he might like to use him (after hearing the whole story.)

Are you trying to pick a fight? Why am I talking out both sides of my mouth? I don't care what you do with him. I've seen Angus bulls with 100+ birth weights. They took a hit at sale time. But I said if he's a good bull someone will want him, but maybe discount him compared to his brothers, if they're all selling together. Is the BW his dam's fault or the recip's fault or his sire's fault. That's where the rub comes in.

EPDs are the same because they're based only on pedigree. If/when weights are reported on calves sired by these bulls, their EPDs might well change.

 

[ollie?]

If/when weights are reported on calves sired by these bulls, their EPDs might well change.

If they go into a registered herd and data is reported, of course their epd's will change. That's never been in question. The question is can you tell from their weights today which bull will sire the lightest calves?

 

[Frankie]

If/when weights are reported on calves sired by these bulls, their EPDs might well change.

If they go into a registered herd and data is reported, of course their epd's will change. That's never been in question. The question is can you tell from their weights today which bull will sire the lightest calves?

No. Since all three bulls have the same EPDs, one should EXPECT them to sire similar calves. But we don't always get what we EXPECT. We all know there are outliers within breeds. And potential buyers will make their own decision about what sorts of actual BWs they're willing to live with or without.

 

[ollie?]

If/when weights are reported on calves sired by these bulls, their EPDs might well change.

If they go into a registered herd and data is reported, of course their epd's will change. That's never been in question. The question is can you tell from their weights today which bull will sire the lightest calves?

No.

They you personally see no genetic value difference at this point? They should be worth the same money?

 

[MikeC]

What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far.

There is no way EPD's can make allowances for outside influences such as an "Unrelated Surrogate Dam". Way too many variables. That's why they PE the EPD's instead of calculating them.

Remember the name:

ESTIMATED PROGENY DIFFERENCE

Mike could the range have been even greater on unrelated natural dams?The sire's epd's alone wouldn't make a set of calves more predictable than the sire and dam in a surrogate mother would they?

Your 3 bull calves have the same genetic similarities that 3 full brothers have.

They have a 44 lb BW difference only because of the surrogate dams' difference to each other. They would be much closer in BW had they been born of the same cow under similar environmental conditions.

This is why the EPD's won't reflect the actual BW's of the calves.

Had they been born to registered cows with EPD's... then the actual BW's of the calves would be calculated into a BW EPD instead of a "Pedigree Estimate".(PE)

 

[Frankie]

If/when weights are reported on calves sired by these bulls, their EPDs might well change.

If they go into a registered herd and data is reported, of course their epd's will change. That's never been in question. The question is can you tell from their weights today which bull will sire the lightest calves?

No.

They you personally see no genetic value difference at this point? They should be worth the same money?

As they stand today, with the EPDs they have, their known genetics, no, I see no difference. But I'm not buying a bull today. ;-)

 

[manaftergodsheart413]

I agree with the previous the statement.But my grandfather and I and some of our close friends raised beefmaster and they had small calves at birth and always weaned at 600 pounds or more.So I don't really agree with the part when it said the calf with the higher birth weight would wean heavier than those that have a lower birth weight

Not doubting you or your grandfather.....but did you ever weigh any of those calves?

Most of the better commercial guys I know (mainly the ones who wean over 600 lb. calves) have never weighed a baby calf and a lot of them I see are bigger than my purebred Chars that weigh 80-90.

I do know this from weighing baby calves for several years....it's hard to guess their weight with any accuracy.

I understand where your coming from and everything and no we didn't weigh at birth but in my eyes you cant say the one that weighs the most at birth will wean the heaviest or be the heaviest as a yearling simply because there are so many different things to take into account whenever the calf is in the womb of the cow I feel their is only 1 valid assumption to make from a calves birth weight and to me that is that if his sire throws a big calf consistently year round no matter the conditions or size of the cow the his male offspring will more than likely inherit that trait from their sire because there are some bulls that have very low birth weights and their offspring excel as yearlings for instance lasater and casey beefmaster their calves average 65-70 pounds at birth and quite a few wean well over 600 -700 pounds I have got files on a casey bull that weaned at 900 pounds with no feed strictly on the range and nothing else oh yeah with some hay and that only when snow covers the ground

 

[manaftergodsheart413]

What I find interesting is the epd's are the same yet the calves have a 44lb bw range so far.

There is no way EPD's can make allowances for outside influences such as an "Unrelated Surrogate Dam". Way too many variables. That's why they PE the EPD's instead of calculating them.

Remember the name:

I agree with that I think epd's are some what over rated or misused

ESTIMATED PROGENY DIFFERENCE

 

[KNERSIE]

I think there is still a point missed in this whole discussion. Just as three full brothers aren't exactly the same although they share the same parents will full sibs ET calves not be exactly the same. And they will not neccesarily sire the same birthweights.

Genes are passed on randomly by each parent and it could well be that in this bull's case two recessive genes(or how ever many control BW) were passed on that caused this big birthweight. And this bull might well pass it on to some of his progeny too.

I am not denying the role the recip dam played in her share of the added birthweight, but I don't think she's the only one too blame.

 

[vs_cattle]

size matters larger the calf the more probs you gonna have like a dead calf, dead momma cow, time pulling out calves

 

[S.R.R.]

I have got files on a casey bull that weaned at 900 pounds with no feed strictly on the range and nothing else oh yeah with some hay and that only when snow covers the ground

Wow sounds like one heck of a bull. What did he wt. as a two year old?

 

[manaftergodsheart413]

I think there is still a point missed in this whole discussion. Just as three full brothers aren't exactly the same although they share the same parents will full sibs ET calves not be exactly the same. And they will not neccesarily sire the same birthweights.

Genes are passed on randomly by each parent and it could well be that in this bull's case two recessive genes(or how ever many control BW) were passed on that caused this big birthweight. And this bull might well pass it on to some of his progeny too.

I am not denying the role the recip dam played in her share of the added birthweight, but I don't think she's the only one too blame.

I think that its safe to say when it comes to throwing big calves on a consistent bases the bull is the one to blame the cow will have something to do with it also but that just depends on her weight

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

One of the geneticists at Cornell said people should not use BW to determine whether a bull should be castrated, they should use Calving Ease EPD's.
We automatically cut anything over 105#. I told him, sure "I" know some of these heavy weight bull calves would be just fine on a commercial herd. BUT, if I "talked" someone into buying a heavy BW bull, and he had ONE calving difficulty - it would be MY reputation - down the drain.
In your case, Ollie, you have a known buyer that is knowlegeable and any future problems won't ruin your reputation.
Or, if put in a sale & BW's are listed - buyer beware.
If I was looking at an AI bull with that kind of BW, I would not use a young unproven bull. I definately would want to see his CE EPD's with some ACCURACY behind him.
The modern bulls today can give you CE with growth - called "spread" bulls. There are lots of them - in all breeds.
And I agree with Rod - just because the cow weighs more, doesn't neccesarily mean she is too large framed. I love 6 frame 1600# cows They are awesome with tons of volume - volume/capacity is the name of the game for easy keeping cows.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I think there is still a point missed in this whole discussion. Just as three full brothers aren't exactly the same although they share the same parents will full sibs ET calves not be exactly the same. And they will not neccesarily sire the same birthweights.

Genes are passed on randomly by each parent and it could well be that in this bull's case two recessive genes(or how ever many control BW) were passed on that caused this big birthweight. And this bull might well pass it on to some of his progeny too.

I am not denying the role the recip dam played in her share of the added birthweight, but I don't think she's the only one too blame.

I think that its safe to say when it comes to throwing big calves on a consistent bases the bull is the one to blame

• something the cow will have to do with it also but that just depends on her weight

negatory.. cows weight has nothing to do with the calf size . genetic makeup of the cow does.. a big calf is a big calf. no matter the body condition of the cow at calving time. unless she is just emanciated. im betting my cows would decrease the birthweight of ollie's bull

 

[MikeC]

Cows usually have a calf that will weigh around 6-7% of her bodyweight on average according to how her nutrition was managed.

Ollie's big calf was under that figure. Normal.