Does Calf Size Matter?
- Thread starter MikeC
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Tod Dague
Well-known member
My cover bull for the heifers BW was 91 lb, but I wouldn't buy a unproven bull with a 118 lb BW even for the cows.
MikeC
Well-known member
At first glance I can somewhat understand some's hesitation in using the heavier bull.
But there are circumstances when he would be just as worthy as the other two.
I see scenarios close to this during the sale season. Some of the old timers only look at the "actual" BW of a bull and judge him solely on this basis. By not taking a look at management styles, season of delivery, etc., they sometimes talk them selves out of what might be a bull better suited for him.
All things being equal, I would probably not use him either, but some things are not as they appear to be.
But there are circumstances when he would be just as worthy as the other two.
I see scenarios close to this during the sale season. Some of the old timers only look at the "actual" BW of a bull and judge him solely on this basis. By not taking a look at management styles, season of delivery, etc., they sometimes talk them selves out of what might be a bull better suited for him.
All things being equal, I would probably not use him either, but some things are not as they appear to be.
manaftergodsheart413":1141sufd said:
The killer for him is that his contemporaries were 74 and 83 lbs (very acceptable weights) so this is NOT a herd that so throws the grain at them that the normal calf is 100++ lbs. IF you ratioed the three..."normal" is 92. He would be +26 in his 3 calf contemporary group. Weaning weights, phenotype, etc are all another issue. The issue here is: WILL he kill a cow every now and then? It takes an awful lot of extra weaning weight at 85 cents a lb too pay for one or two dead $900 commercial cows (and $500 commercial calf) or registered $1500 cow (and $500 commercial calf). Maybe he won't but why take those kind of chances?
I would not use him, but my cows/heifers are not large animals...
I think it is curious that northern farmers would consider it, while most southern farmers are opposed. Is this a regional thing? Or is it the environment that warrants the difference?
Michele
I think it is curious that northern farmers would consider it, while most southern farmers are opposed. Is this a regional thing? Or is it the environment that warrants the difference?
Michele
manaftergodsheart413
Well-known member
i don't think it would hurt a mature cow if the calf was born a 100 pounds some of that has to do with the cow also if if his dam was a good size cow she will naturally have a bigger calf than a smaller cow I think the bull would be fine to use on mature cows
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Let's really "cut to the chase!" If a producer has 45 cows and one bull, he has the time and incentive to watch each individual member of his herd on a daily basis, be -completely aware of each cow's needs, characteristics, and idiosyncracies. The Bull's also! The breeder can be careful and particular with each individual cow when breeding time comes, monitoring the feed and care that each cow receives, and when parturition time arrives - keep his eye on her and intervene IF it becomes obvious that she is having trouble calving. - - - - - - 45 Cow Business!
One the other side of the coin, if he has a herd that is TEN times larger than the 45 cow herd - 450 cows - (or 20 times larger than 45 cows - 900 cows) and a proportionally larger Bull Battery (10 - 20 Bulls) he has a considerably larger set of responsibilities than with the smaller herd, and, as such, is obligated to employ a different set of management tecnhics in order to achieve the same degree of success as he would have with the smaller herd. Everything is in proportion to the effort expended. More facilities required, more time required, and more employees from which to withhold taxes and manage. The problems are in direct proportion to the size of the herd, and the profit is in direct proportion to the sincerity, honesty, genuineness and good faith of his employees.
Voilla' - I would not use any bull whose bw EPD is above 100, even if I had only ONE cow. ( . . . and AI'd her). I would be attempting to keep my average cow herd weight at +/- 1250 Pounds if I were retaining heifers as replacements.
To each his own!
DOC HARRIS
One the other side of the coin, if he has a herd that is TEN times larger than the 45 cow herd - 450 cows - (or 20 times larger than 45 cows - 900 cows) and a proportionally larger Bull Battery (10 - 20 Bulls) he has a considerably larger set of responsibilities than with the smaller herd, and, as such, is obligated to employ a different set of management tecnhics in order to achieve the same degree of success as he would have with the smaller herd. Everything is in proportion to the effort expended. More facilities required, more time required, and more employees from which to withhold taxes and manage. The problems are in direct proportion to the size of the herd, and the profit is in direct proportion to the sincerity, honesty, genuineness and good faith of his employees.
Voilla' - I would not use any bull whose bw EPD is above 100, even if I had only ONE cow. ( . . . and AI'd her). I would be attempting to keep my average cow herd weight at +/- 1250 Pounds if I were retaining heifers as replacements.
To each his own!
DOC HARRIS
I think the key is to stay away from extremes in all aspects of livestock breeding, the same goes for BW.
From my experience the really small calves never catch up and the really big ones are hard starters. I still think any registered heifer should be able to have a calf of up to 10lbs heavier than breed average unassisted. That doesn't mean we have to challenge them for having the biggest possible calf as first calvers.
From my experience the really small calves never catch up and the really big ones are hard starters. I still think any registered heifer should be able to have a calf of up to 10lbs heavier than breed average unassisted. That doesn't mean we have to challenge them for having the biggest possible calf as first calvers.
DOC HARRIS":19mni98n said:
Actually Doc we disagree here. While I think both could be doing something better with their time than pulling calves, I think the big dog with the 450 cows and the fulltime help probably can take more chances. Pulling a calf is not a big hassle if you got two cowboys who can put a rope on the cow real fast and assist you in the pull. A little guy with 45 cows, PROBABLY has a full time job he has to be at. He has an hour right at dawn too check cows and do anything he has too do and he has ~an hour before dusk too find any problems and he generally has too do it ALL alone. I think that is part of the reason why these Angus calving ease specialists are so popular. I got my Genex catalog and they have got Angus bulls in there with birth weight EPDs of -.7, -1, -1.1, -1.4, -1.6, and -2.6 (Oak Hollow 779 of 1318 1118). 3 of their 7 Hereford sires are in the top 4% of their breed for low birthweight and 3 of their Simmies are in the tops 2%. People try too make up for their lack of facilities, time, labor, mgmt, etc by breeding their cattle (especially heifers) to the highest calving ease sires they can find.
Flush brothers?
Watch them mature. If the big calf ends up being quite a bit heavier for WW and YW, then a good deal of his high BW is probably genetic.
If they group together pretty closely, then maybe it isn't so much genetics.
I forgot, or it wasn't said. Are the cows who carried the embryos similar in genetics?
Badlands
Watch them mature. If the big calf ends up being quite a bit heavier for WW and YW, then a good deal of his high BW is probably genetic.
If they group together pretty closely, then maybe it isn't so much genetics.
I forgot, or it wasn't said. Are the cows who carried the embryos similar in genetics?
Badlands
I've enjoied the thread. They are my cows. All flush brothers , now a total of 4.
1 from a heifer weighing about 1100 : 74lb calf
1 from a L model 1300 lb cow : 83
1 from a G model 1400 lb cow : 83
1 from a F model 1600-1700 lb cow : 118
The big cow always has big calves. I was with her when she calved. She had a water bag out for about 30 minutes till she layed down and it broke. 8 minutes later she was up licking it off. I personally probably wouldn't buy a 118 lb calf but I might use this one if I don't get him sold. I would probably attribute at least some of the added BW to the recip cow. I don't know how much but I for the life of me can't believe a full brother would sire calves much (way much) heavier than the other brothers. All of them were born unassisted. They are all from a sire and dam mating with BW epd's that are in the upper end of the heifer bull range. They were all managed the same. The recip cows are all a different breed than the calves but are the same breed.All of the calves are a few days early so far. The stock the embryos are out of are probably a little less than 6 frame . Their sire will weigh about a ton. The dam probably weighs 1600 or so. She's a pretty heavy made little cow. She might not weigh that , maybe 1500. I've never weighed her.
1 from a heifer weighing about 1100 : 74lb calf
1 from a L model 1300 lb cow : 83
1 from a G model 1400 lb cow : 83
1 from a F model 1600-1700 lb cow : 118
The big cow always has big calves. I was with her when she calved. She had a water bag out for about 30 minutes till she layed down and it broke. 8 minutes later she was up licking it off. I personally probably wouldn't buy a 118 lb calf but I might use this one if I don't get him sold. I would probably attribute at least some of the added BW to the recip cow. I don't know how much but I for the life of me can't believe a full brother would sire calves much (way much) heavier than the other brothers. All of them were born unassisted. They are all from a sire and dam mating with BW epd's that are in the upper end of the heifer bull range. They were all managed the same. The recip cows are all a different breed than the calves but are the same breed.All of the calves are a few days early so far. The stock the embryos are out of are probably a little less than 6 frame . Their sire will weigh about a ton. The dam probably weighs 1600 or so. She's a pretty heavy made little cow. She might not weigh that , maybe 1500. I've never weighed her.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Brandomn2 - I don't disagree entirely with you if we are only considering the Human Element in the equation - however I am analysing the problem from the COW'S physical condition, and future. Pulling calves is one of the most unpleasant duties I ever did, and that was before they had the pullers that they have now! Nickel Plated chains and a halter and four guys who wanted to get the calves out and didn't give squat doodley about the cow OR calf!Brandonm2":rflab0t6 said:
But - all signs fail in wet weather!
DOC HARRIS
The reason I wanted Mike to post this is after reading the big calf thread, I felt like some of you fellas need a little experience. Calves weigh heavy or light for several reasons. It's not always the bulls fault, or management, or cold weather, etc., etc. Edit: that sounds like I have it figured out , I don't . My point is just because a bull sires a heavy calf, the breeder doesn't absolutely need to be hung at dusk. It's a genetic game with lots of possibilities . When you add environmental factors into the equasion, the possibilities are endless. Sometimes you get a heavy one.
Why? Aren't you one of those that tout epd's all the time. His epd's are exactly equal to his brothers. I assure you, if I sell him, the new owner will know all the information I just gave you. I don't see any more of a moral obligation to cut him than I do the 74 pounder who (could) cost the man I sell him to thousands of dollars of lost preformance over the life of the bull.Brandonm2":1uruh0od said:
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
ollie?":1f0ee0ie said:
Well heck, thats just a little bitty calf for a 1700 lb cow. If my 14 weights can't deliver 100 - 110 lbs unassisted, they leave here in a hurry. I'd expect a 1700 lb cow to easily pop out 130 lbs of healthy bouncing calf, and if she didn't/couldn't, she'd be down the road.
My first heifer of the year calved today. 800 lb heifer dropped a 100 lb calf all on her own, turned around and started mothering immediately. Calf was up and going about 5 minutes later. It was -12C today, and its ears never even got cold.
As Doc says, different strokes for different folks, but those small calves freeze to death up here too quick for my liking. And its a fallacy that big calves are slow. Its hard births that make them slow.
Rod
