Do your steers make the cut?

[Lucky]

Would a commercial cattleman want a herd of 1700-1800 pound mama cows with 2700 pound bulls trying to breed them. Boy I bet a cow that big could eat a whole bale of hay all by herself!!
There's a place for both type of operations I guess. I wonder what type of cattleman are buying bulls from Breeders like Branded are they commercial operators or hobby farmers? I don't know how many times I've been at the sale and a registered bull comes through the ring then when sold the buyer says throw those papers away. If I was keeping hrifers I would pay more attention to EPDs for sure.

 

[True Grit Farms]

************* is doing what he needs to do to sell bulls. I've looked at 300+ bulls for sale this week and every one has been fat. The fact is you can't hardly sell a bull in the southeast if he's not over conditioned. A cow trader and some commercial guy's will buy thin cows, but the majority of folks want to buy fat cows.
I was just thinking about the southeast having notoriously poor management practices, and lack of production in the feedlots. I'm wondering if some of those quality issues arise because of our cow and bull choices? Seems like most everywhere else in the country besides the east prefer a smaller frame cow.

 

[Silver]

I think you're right about fat bulls, and I think it's everywhere. I prefer to buy bulls as calves in the fall that haven't seen creep feed and where I can look at the cow family and his contemporaries. Then I leave the bull with the breeder and pick him up after semen testing in the spring. Some breeders prefer that because that way they don't have to worry about the new owner pouring the feed to the bull over winter then complaining about condition, feet, etc. during the ensuing breeding season. Kind of win win.
Up here in the arctic circle cows tend to be larger than what a lot of folks claim to like. But the way I see it is if they are profitable they are likely the right size. But there is always room for improvement, if your standing still you're being passed.

 

[Lucky_P]

Haven't read through this entire thread yet, but will throw this in:
We had no idea what the endproduct of our program was like - though we've spent the last 10 years or so selecting for high ribeye, high marbling, and tenderness, in addition to above-average WW epds for whatever sire breed we've been using at a given time - whether Angus, Shorthorn, Simmental, or Braunvieh. We're not really big enough to produce a load of calves at one time; not gonna background and try to retain ownership on 20 steers in split Spring/Fall calving seasons.

5 years or so back, after using several (solid red) Shorthorn sires for a few years with the intent of making some SH-cross cows to come back over with black Simmental sires, we were recruited by a noted Shorthorn breeder to do a progeny-test breeding trial, using their hot new sire prospect, and a proven Shorthorn sire they'd also bred, which we'd been using previously(he had high Genestar scores for quality grade and tenderness). Cows here were mostly 3/4Angus-1/4Simmental; the Shorthorn breeder is noted for performance genetics... not fluff and showring stuff.
They bought back the 10 or so steers out of the Spring calf crop, backgrounded them with their own Shorthorn steers, and entered them in a steer feedout/carcass trial... 150 steers in all, mostly Shorthorn-sired, but there were a couple of groups of straight Angus and SimAngus steers in the mix.
All our steers finished in the top 50%, most were in the top 20 animals overall, and one of our calves, a Waukaru Orion 2047 out of a brown/whitefaced 3/4AN-1/4SM cow was the top steer overall: graded choice, with highest WDA, highest ADG, highest HCW, highest REA/cwt, highest % retail product, and overall most profitable. It was gratifying to see that we are producing a good quality product... but sad to know that we'll likely never get paid what these calves are really worth... too much opportunity for buyers at the local salebarns to dock the snot out of them for 'off' color - like red or brown.

 

[CattleMan1920]

my opinion. If it ain't broke...you know the rest.

I am not telling you to change your program, I asked what was so wrong with your decades old herd that you changed it...….

I am busy enough to not need the extra burden of AI and ET, IMO, they are both extra expenditures for the end product. A bull supplier using other's genetics doesn't say much for their own herd unless they are just starting out.

If a bull is athletic enough and not overweight, he should be able to breed a cow of any size. I doubt your bull would weigh 2200 if he was in actual working condition. We have sold cull bulls weighing a ton many times. Would rather they stopped growing at 17 or 1800, they last longer that way in this rough country..

Nothing was wrong with it. Disclosure, we were never a large scale producer selling 500 bulls a year. What we were, however, was a registered herd for a long time, and we worked closely with a producer that is large and has been in business since 1952. We were never bringing in substandard genetics.

About 4-5 years ago we decided to go all in on AI and instead of just AI'ng a few a year, we decided to AI as many as possible each breeding season. One of the first things I realized was that if the nutrition was not top notch, I may be wasting my time on the AI. The heifers were easy to settle, but the older cows were not as easy. The goal was to have registered Angus cattle that performed well for our environment but to get higher weaning weights and carcass traits through better genetics. Since operations like SAV, Baldridge, Hoover, and Connealy have a deeper genetic advantage than we do, we chose AI, I should not have to explain that one. I realized pretty quickly that if I fed our existing cows very well, that they could raise a much better calf, than if I just left them out to live a "survival of the fittest" lifestyle that those AI calves would probably not develop out to their full potential. Our cattle never starved, but I can say that our mineral program, and hay left room for improvement. We have improved by leaps and bounds in the past 4 years.

There has been a lot of discussion that the best cattle are cattle that can take a beating, with minimal inputs. Humans can endure a great deal as well, it probably wouldn't hurt people to fast 2-4 days a week, but could you do that and perform your duties on the farm? Probably not. I feel this has become a topic that is a lost cause. I'm not telling anyone how to raise their cattle, I'm only saying that feeding a low-quality program is not going to create high-performance cattle.

Nothing you guys can tell me will change my mind on the progress I have seen with my own two eyes, which has been very significant.

True Grit was spot on when he mentioned "fat bulls" The bulls I see at sales are bigger than what we offer from a fat viewpoint. We don't let them turn into butterballs. Here is one that was sold in the fall of 2018, he was probably the chunkiest of the group, the rest we had were a tad bit more athletic.



This bull was had high DMI score, CED, BW, well above average CEM and Milk, along with $EN and Marb. He went to work on about 30 head as a 17 month old. So far the owner said he is performing well, and he settled all his females during their breeding window. When he was semen tested, he scored high. The vet gives them a 1-4 with 4 being the best. He was a 4.

This bull is out of our 2500 pound Stone Gate bull, so he is not a "fancy" AI bull, his dam is about 1775 pounds and is 11 years old.

If this is one of the "fat" tub of lards you are talking about that will not work in "real world" situations. I don't know what to say, because "real world" feedback says that he is doing just fine, and they are NOT giving him any grain at all. He was affordable for the producer, he has a good residual if he wants to resell him in a couple of years, and he practically pays for himself if the owner uses him for two years, steers everything, and retains his daughters, which by the way will have some good maternal traits passed on by this bull.

If he had weighed 1000 pounds instead of how he looks in the picture, I doubt the producer would have given him the time of day.

 

[76 Bar]

A given Branded would be shocked reading Beckton's catalog.

 

[CattleMan1920]

A given Branded would be shocked reading Beckton's catalog.

Very little can shock me these days, I guess it's a sign of getting old.

 

[gcreekrch]

I am not telling you to change your program, I asked what was so wrong with your decades old herd that you changed it...….

I am busy enough to not need the extra burden of AI and ET, IMO, they are both extra expenditures for the end product. A bull supplier using other's genetics doesn't say much for their own herd unless they are just starting out.

If a bull is athletic enough and not overweight, he should be able to breed a cow of any size. I doubt your bull would weigh 2200 if he was in actual working condition. We have sold cull bulls weighing a ton many times. Would rather they stopped growing at 17 or 1800, they last longer that way in this rough country..

Nothing was wrong with it. Disclosure, we were never a large scale producer selling 500 bulls a year. What we were, however, was a registered herd for a long time, and we worked closely with a producer that is large and has been in business since 1952. We were never bringing in substandard genetics.

About 4-5 years ago we decided to go all in on AI and instead of just AI'ng a few a year, we decided to AI as many as possible each breeding season. One of the first things I realized was that if the nutrition was not top notch, I may be wasting my time on the AI. The heifers were easy to settle, but the older cows were not as easy. The goal was to have registered Angus cattle that performed well for our environment but to get higher weaning weights and carcass traits through better genetics. Since operations like SAV, Baldridge, Hoover, and Connealy have a deeper genetic advantage than we do, we chose AI, I should not have to explain that one. I realized pretty quickly that if I fed our existing cows very well, that they could raise a much better calf, than if I just left them out to live a "survival of the fittest" lifestyle that those AI calves would probably not develop out to their full potential. Our cattle never starved, but I can say that our mineral program, and hay left room for improvement. We have improved by leaps and bounds in the past 4 years.

There has been a lot of discussion that the best cattle are cattle that can take a beating, with minimal inputs. Humans can endure a great deal as well, it probably wouldn't hurt people to fast 2-4 days a week, but could you do that and perform your duties on the farm? Probably not. I feel this has become a topic that is a lost cause. I'm not telling anyone how to raise their cattle, I'm only saying that feeding a low-quality program is not going to create high-performance cattle.

Nothing you guys can tell me will change my mind on the progress I have seen with my own two eyes, which has been very significant.

True Grit was spot on when he mentioned "fat bulls" The bulls I see at sales are bigger than what we offer from a fat viewpoint. We don't let them turn into butterballs. Here is one that was sold in the fall of 2018, he was probably the chunkiest of the group, the rest we had were a tad bit more athletic.



This bull was had high DMI score, CED, BW, well above average CEM and Milk, along with $EN and Marb. He went to work on about 30 head as a 17 month old. So far the owner said he is performing well, and he settled all his females during their breeding window. When he was semen tested, he scored high. The vet gives them a 1-4 with 4 being the best. He was a 4.

This bull is out of our 2500 pound Stone Gate bull, so he is not a "fancy" AI bull, his dam is about 1775 pounds and is 11 years old.

If this is one of the "fat" tub of lards you are talking about that will not work in "real world" situations. I don't know what to say, because "real world" feedback says that he is doing just fine, and they are NOT giving him any grain at all. He was affordable for the producer, he has a good residual if he wants to resell him in a couple of years, and he practically pays for himself if the owner uses him for two years, steers everything, and retains his daughters, which by the way will have some good maternal traits passed on by this bull.

If he had weighed 1000 pounds instead of how he looks in the picture, I doubt the producer would have given him the time of day.

That bull has been developed very well and is not overfat. Was the photo taken on delivery day or after he had been working a couple weeks? Either way, he is in good condition.

I am reading between the lines with this post and am hearing you say that using AI did no good until your feed inputs went up. That is fine with the progeny that go to the feedlot for us commercial guys but not ok for keeping replacements in most cases. Cattle that need extra feed to produce will generally weed themselves out early in their productive life just as you found out.

Back to chores...….

 

[Bright Raven]

************* is doing what he needs to do to sell bulls. I've looked at 300+ bulls for sale this week and every one has been fat. The fact is you can't hardly sell a bull in the southeast if he's not over conditioned. A cow trader and some commercial guy's will buy thin cows, but the majority of folks want to buy fat cows.
I was just thinking about the southeast having notoriously poor management practices, and lack of production in the feedlots. I'm wondering if some of those quality issues arise because of our cow and bull choices? Seems like most everywhere else in the country besides the east prefer a smaller frame cow.

I don't think it is isolated to the southeast. I go to sales in Missouri. In all the high profile sales, the bulls especially carry some extra condition. I also get all the Simmental Sale announcements via email. The bulls in the catalogs from Montana, Kansas, Dakotas, Illinois, etc, doesn't matter where they are presented in the catalog the same everywhere.

IMO, management practices are the prime reason for poor performance in the southeast.

 

[True Grit Farms]

************* is doing what he needs to do to sell bulls. I've looked at 300+ bulls for sale this week and every one has been fat. The fact is you can't hardly sell a bull in the southeast if he's not over conditioned. A cow trader and some commercial guy's will buy thin cows, but the majority of folks want to buy fat cows.
I was just thinking about the southeast having notoriously poor management practices, and lack of production in the feedlots. I'm wondering if some of those quality issues arise because of our cow and bull choices? Seems like most everywhere else in the country besides the east prefer a smaller frame cow.

I don't think it is isolated to the southeast. I go to sales in Missouri. In all the high profile sales, the bulls especially carry some extra condition. I also get all the Simmental Sale announcements via email. The bulls in the catalogs from Montana, Kansas, Dakotas, Illinois, etc, doesn't matter where they are presented in the catalog the same everywhere.

IMO, management practices are the prime reason for poor performance in the southeast.

None, like I mean zero of the ranches I toured in Montana had overly large or obese cattle. I went to the well respected Midland Bull Test where they test over 1100 bulls a year from more than 30 states, and none of the bulls were overly fat. I know exactly what I saw, asked a bunch of why questions, and started altering - culling my herd once I got back home. Those cows in Montana must hustle to survive, some places it's a couple of miles between water holes, and 20 acres per AU. Every cow had a couple of jobs besides trying to survive, and that was to raise a calf and breed back in a 60 day window.
Common sense tells me our cattle choices might have something to do with our management practices.

 

[Dave]

None, like I mean zero of the ranches I toured in Montana had overly large or obese cattle. I went to the well respected Midland Bull Test where they test over 1100 bulls a year from more than 30 states, and none of the bulls were overly fat. I know exactly what I saw, asked a bunch of why questions, and started altering - culling my herd once I got back home. Those cows in Montana must hustle to survive, some places it's a couple of miles between water holes, and 20 acres per AU. Every cow had a couple of jobs besides trying to survive, and that was to raise a calf and breed back in a 60 day window.
Common sense tells me our cattle choices might have something to do with our management practices.
[/quote]

This is the point I have tried to make. So for a real world example I pulled out the maps of the BLM allotment that is out my back gate. Based on the section lines on the map it is 4 miles east to west. And 3 miles north to south at the widest point. The total acreage is a hair under 5,000 acres. There are a total of 8 water holes (developed springs) in the entire area. Drawing a line from east to west the elevation starts at 3,000 feet, it goes up to 4,700, back down to 3,200, up again to 5,300, down again 3,300, and finally back up to 4,800 feet. That is 4,300 feet of rise in elevation and 3,500 feet of downhill to travel 4 miles. A big fat cow will find a water hole if she is lucky and stay right there. And of course the grass always gets grazed out first by the water holes. Cattle that aren't able to seriously travel will weed themselves out quickly.

 

[CattleMan1920]

That's interesting, but I have a question. Why if you were in, say, Kentucky, would you try to emulate the methods of raising cattle as if you were in Arizona or West Texas? Our farm has so much water everywhere, that a cow can walk 20 feet and have something to drink. We use waterers just as back up if things dry up in the summer, which even then, there is still natural sources, just not as clean as I would like, hence the waterers.

I've spoken to Western producers that seriously think I'm lying to them when I say that I can run 2 cow/calf pairs per acre during spring/summer/fall. Maybe more if I really wanted to push it and we had rain. Think about that, a 100 acre farm, if rotationally grazed using electric, could handle nearly 200 head in the summer. If I wanted to crowd things up in the summer, I could keep 4 pairs per acre. How many acres would you need to run 4 pairs in Montana or Colorado? 150-200? I seed our fields with ladino and red clover, along with orchard grass, and timothy. Use a chain harrow to get that manure worked in and when the rain comes on hard in the spring and our fields look like a "Chia Pet" As I said on an earlier post, we have a Woods batwing mower that is used 4-5 times a year on the pastures just to keep them from going wild, the cattle can't keep them mowed down. The downside of this environment is the endless amount of mud that we deal with in the winter, I don't know about the cattle, which seem to deal with it pretty well, but I can barely walk through it, and it tires me out after an hour or so in mud over my ankles, not to mention that even a 4x4 Gator can sometimes get hung up out here. Forget cowboy boots, the only thing cattle producers wear here are rubber boots, knee high at that.

Our cows will eat that clover and grass non-stop until they look like they are about to burst. In fact our cows are almost always bigger in the summer than the winter.

If I were out west, I can absolutely guarantee you that I would be running a different operation. I know our cows would not look the same. But that's not the case.

Take a look at this cow from 44 Farms. Is she fat? Does she not have worth? She sold, I think for $500k.

I would take her in a nano second, and would be thrilled to have her embyros. Her calves would thrive on our operation. Would they thrive in a desert type setting? Probably not.

 

[mwj]

If the west does not figure into the Kentucky equation, why are you using those ''big'' western genetics in your breeding program?

 

[CattleMan1920]

If the west does not figure into the Kentucky equation, why are you using those ''big'' western genetics in your breeding program?

Because I want to improve $B while still keeping a high level of efficiency on our grass. It can be done because I have done it and have the results to show for it.

Too many of the cattle that you see in KY are well adapted for grass, are efficient, and calving ease, but they lack growth and high carcass traits. I'm blending the two together and it's working. That's why.

I'm just pointing out that we don't have scarce resources here like they do out west. We basically have an all you can eat buffet for 3 months of the year.

 

[mwj]

If you are selling to your neighbors that is a valid point. What you are doing is reaching out to a much larger group on this board so you will not have there support. Are you planing on your cattle only being sold in your area? :???:

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you are selling to your neighbors that is a valid point. What you are doing is reaching out to a much larger group on this board so you will not have there support. Are you planing on your cattle only being sold in your area? :???:

I'm not planning on selling to operations out West, unless they want my product. Not everything out here is 2000 pounds. For example, we have a very nice Miss Burgess cow, about 1600 pounds that puts off an excellent calf every time. We range between 1600-2000 pounds on our cows, with the majority between 1750-1900.

I do plan on ramping up a steer operation over the next 3 years, after considering some things that have been said on this board, believe it or not! and will be using our own sires to produce them along with registered dams that I have tested and know the carcass epds. High marb, high $QG, $YG, $B dams.

The bulls we have would work well for a commercial cattleman in KY, but convincing them to use a terminal bull to create steers has so far been a long, slow process.

 

[Dave]

That's interesting, but I have a question. Why if you were in, say, Kentucky, would you try to emulate the methods of raising cattle as if you were in Arizona or West Texas? Our farm has so much water everywhere, that a cow can walk 20 feet and have something to drink. We use waterers just as back up if things dry up in the summer, which even then, there is still natural sources, just not as clean as I would like, hence the waterers.

I've spoken to Western producers that seriously think I'm lying to them when I say that I can run 2 cow/calf pairs per acre during spring/summer/fall. Maybe more if I really wanted to push it and we had rain. Think about that, a 100 acre farm, if rotationally grazed using electric, could handle nearly 200 head in the summer. If I wanted to crowd things up in the summer, I could keep 4 pairs per acre. How many acres would you need to run 4 pairs in Montana or Colorado? 150-200? I seed our fields with ladino and red clover, along with orchard grass, and timothy. Use a chain harrow to get that manure worked in and when the rain comes on hard in the spring and our fields look like a "Chia Pet" As I said on an earlier post, we have a Woods batwing mower that is used 4-5 times a year on the pastures just to keep them from going wild, the cattle can't keep them mowed down. The downside of this environment is the endless amount of mud that we deal with in the winter, I don't know about the cattle, which seem to deal with it pretty well, but I can barely walk through it, and it tires me out after an hour or so in mud over my ankles, not to mention that even a 4x4 Gator can sometimes get hung up out here. Forget cowboy boots, the only thing cattle producers wear here are rubber boots, knee high at that.

Our cows will eat that clover and grass non-stop until they look like they are about to burst. In fact our cows are almost always bigger in the summer than the winter.

If I were out west, I can absolutely guarantee you that I would be running a different operation. I know our cows would not look the same. But that's not the case.

Take a look at this cow from 44 Farms. Is she fat? Does she not have worth? She sold, I think for $500k.

I would take her in a nano second, and would be thrilled to have her embyros. Her calves would thrive on our operation. Would they thrive in a desert type setting? Probably not.

Up until about 15 months ago I lived in Western Washington. We can compare notes on lush green grass and mud. It was a 80 inch annual rainfall area. I had 140 acres of rented pasture there which had 7 duck blinds on it. I never turned out until mid May and even then I thought I should have water buffalo instead of cows. I have literally had cows grazing in a 60 acre pasture with 6 to 12 inches of standing water on 55 acres of it The man I mentioned in an earlier post who I bought my bulls from lives right on the coast. At high tide you can stand in his pasture and throw a rock into salt water. The North Pacific, any further west and you are swimming. He probably gets 100 inches + of rainfall. He is the one who has 400 cows and only keeps 24 bulls a year. The rest go to the feedlot where I retains ownership. They have been retaining ownership for decades. His pastures are flat, he has water every where, and grows grass in the summer that you can only dream about. He shoots for a 1,250 pound cow. Of course some are over that and some under. His steers average over 700 pounds coming off the cows. The only thing that gets grain is the sale bulls and replacement heifers. They get 4 pounds a day while in dry lot (mud lot) during the winter.
These 1,150 pound cows here in the mountain dessert would probably weigh more if they lived in that environment. But they bring in lots of 550-650 calves every fall. If one were to bring in a 400 pounder a couple years in a row she would get a free trip one way to town. Cows certainly can't get grain in the summer because they often go a month or two without seeing a person.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

So what makes that 44 farms cow worth 500k?
For that price I would think her bag would be in better shape, and we would be able to see her feet.

But sim, it's Angus!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Now Queenie you know better than to ask a question like that! Go on back to feeding the pigs and stay out of this high roller cow conversation!!

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Forgive me, for I have sinned.

Show pigs are pretty high roller these days.