Do your steers make the cut?

[gcreekrch]

Manage for females and the steers will look after themselves.

Amen.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/seedst...Rq3rnUIIVOSCLjbWRaLuMV4TMZhKkKgB4xKT9MrfmPA0Y
https://www.beefmagazine.com/seedst...Rq3rnUIIVOSCLjbWRaLuMV4TMZhKkKgB4xKT9MrfmPA0Yhttps://www.beefmagazine.com/blog/burke-teichert-s-top-5-tips-bull-selection[/url]

A former manager of a ranch north and east of here managed a herd of 1000 cows for performance long enough that the new manager is sourcing females from other herds until the ranch herd is maternal again. All done with Horned Hereford and both Angus cattle.

 

[Lucky]

Gcreek, sounds like you have a good herd and have worked to make it that way. 90% of the successful ranchers I know have a herd like you describe. It would be nice to be able to follow calves through the salebarn and feeyard but not sure how that would work in my area, best we can do now is run them as yearlings and weigh them every couple months. Some of the best bulls I've seen are home raised out of good mother cows, I have one now I bought from a neighbor. The mans been running cows for nearly 60 yrs figured I could take his word on the bull.

 

[cbcr]

I'm just a little commercial guy, but I have to say I'm a little mystified as to why AI is necessarily so much better than natural service. After all, that straw came from someones bull. There are plenty of top notch bulls out there being bred by folks that know what they are doing whose semen will never be in a catalog but will be every bit as good or better than what comes in a straw. Dad did the AI thing years ago, and also bought high dollar bulls and kept a registered herd to sell bulls from and for his own use. In the end he realized that what he was producing himself was at least as good as what he was paying top dollar for so gave up on it. I know I'm talking commercial cattle here, but from what I've seen commercial cattle have the opportunity to be far better performers than their registered counterparts.

I would have to agree with this. It seems that all the bull studs want to get genetics from the same few breeders, big breeders at that. They won't even give the time of day to the small breeder, but they sure want their business when it comes to selling semen.

I wonder what the inbreeding is on the Angus breed? With all of the bull studs chasing the same genetics it could end up like the Holstein dairy breed. Saw that the inbreeding of the youg genomic Holstein bulls is around 11 - 16%.

How many bulls that are from small breeders could producer better offspring that many of the AI bulls?

 

[cbcr]

CAB is a marketing program. Every breed has animals that qualify to be sold as CAB beef. Holstein, Hereford, Charolais, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Shorthorn, etc.

While the cuts meet the CAB requirements, I would have to wonder about the ground beef. If you look up beef recalls, there were brands that said nothing about being CAB, but CAB ground beef was included. Here is a link to just one recall https://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2018/09/cargill_ground_beef_recall.html It says that the meat being recalled was sold under various brand names.

If CAB beef is supposed to be a superior product, what does this say about it?

 

[mwj]

CAB is a marketing program. Every breed has animals that qualify to be sold as CAB beef. Holstein, Hereford, Charolais, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Shorthorn, etc.

While the cuts meet the CAB requirements, I would have to wonder about the ground beef. If you look up beef recalls, there were brands that said nothing about being CAB, but CAB ground beef was included. Here is a link to just one recall https://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2018/09/cargill_ground_beef_recall.html It says that the meat being recalled was sold under various brand names.

If CAB beef is supposed to be a superior product, what does this say about it?

Recalls are usually based on ''process'' not ''product''. If they were processed in the same plant on the same day it is subject to recall. If you look at the testing procedure in the plants, it will show you why these recalls are for huge amounts of product.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm just a little commercial guy, but I have to say I'm a little mystified as to why AI is necessarily so much better than natural service. After all, that straw came from someones bull. There are plenty of top notch bulls out there being bred by folks that know what they are doing whose semen will never be in a catalog but will be every bit as good or better than what comes in a straw. Dad did the AI thing years ago, and also bought high dollar bulls and kept a registered herd to sell bulls from and for his own use. In the end he realized that what he was producing himself was at least as good as what he was paying top dollar for so gave up on it. I know I'm talking commercial cattle here, but from what I've seen commercial cattle have the opportunity to be far better performers than their registered counterparts.

I would have to agree with this. It seems that all the bull studs want to get genetics from the same few breeders, big breeders at that. They won't even give the time of day to the small breeder, but they sure want their business when it comes to selling semen.

I wonder what the inbreeding is on the Angus breed? With all of the bull studs chasing the same genetics it could end up like the Holstein dairy breed. Saw that the inbreeding of the youg genomic Holstein bulls is around 11 - 16%.

How many bulls that are from small breeders could producer better offspring that many of the AI bulls?

There is a need to define "better" to answer that question. For the experienced commercial producer the term "better" refers to less labor, less problems and decent income. For the purebred folks it involves names, sources and outlier performance in individual cattle. The commercial breeder is looking for uniformity of a calf crop while the number chasing purebred guys are seeking the few outliers.

Inbreeding is not damaging as outcrossing is not damaging, in general. The problem that the Angus breed had and might still have is that big named breeders knew that they had recessive defects on top AI bulls in the past but chose to not tell. When the rest of the breeders found out the problems began. An animals, inbred or outcrossed, is still only as good as the genes it has from either or both parents.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

In a previous post in the topic, Giganta, I talked about buying bulls from a local registered source. Those bulls were ruined by over-feeding. They were 6595 sons. Because of too many issues with these popular bloodlines I switched to another source for my bulls. The ones I've used the past 10 years have been Shoshone/Wye blood. They've come from North Dakota. The individual I've bought them from posted today on FB saying he'd just visited a feed yard north of Fargo. He went there to see three specific groups of heifers being fed as replacements. One group was Shoshone/Wye, the second group was SAV genetics and the third group was a representation of A.I. sires. He learned this: The SAV and A.I. heifers weigh 15% more than the Shoshone/Wye group and they are eating 25% more. The Shoshone/Wye heifers are weighing 700lbs with the others averaging 800 pounds.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I've read all the posts and agree with some and others I think are totally wrong.

One thing is for sure, there seems to be some doubt that our steers would perform on a feedlot. Cattle too pampered and other nonsense.

We have a bull that we use when we either cannot or do not wish to AI our gals. He is a son of Apex Windbreak 622. From what I can tell Apex Angus sends a good number of steers to Poky Feeders. So I am sure Apex has some "real world data" to lean on.

Next, the bull's dam is one of the best at Stone Gate, an operation that was one of only 40 operations in the entire country to be recognized for a CAB barn painting. Probably not the easiest thing to achieve.

Now with that known, let's take a look at the bull that you guys are a bit tough on. He is top 20% for Marb epd, his $QG (QualityGrade) is top 20% as well. His CED is a +12 (top 10% of Angus breed), and his BW epd is top 4% of Angus breed. He has 17 genetic progeny on the ground with more to come, he is free of all recessives according to his DNA tests, not just by pedigree, and he is virile.

My question is this, DO YOU REALLY THINK that some fluke is going to occur when he is bred to our cows that will result in poor performers on the feedlot. If so why? What hidden issue is going to surface?

His sons that are working right now on several operations are doing so without any complaints, and the calves look nice. The sons are on herds that are not purebred Angus, they are on mixed herds.

Am I missing something, or are you guys just busting my b.....ls?

 

[JMJ Farms]

I've read all the posts and agree with some and others I think are totally wrong.

One thing is for sure, there seems to be some doubt that our steers would perform on a feedlot. Cattle too pampered and other nonsense.

We have a bull that we use when we either cannot or do not wish to AI our gals. He is a son of Apex Windbreak 622. From what I can tell Apex Angus sends a good number of steers to Poky Feeders. So I am sure Apex has some "real world data" to lean on.

Next, the bull's dam is one of the best at Stone Gate, an operation that was one of only 40 operations in the entire country to be recognized for a CAB barn painting. Probably not the easiest thing to achieve.

Now with that known, let's take a look at the bull that you guys are a bit tough on. He is top 20% for Marb epd, his $QG (QualityGrade) is top 20% as well. His CED is a +12 (top 10% of Angus breed), and his BW epd is top 4% of Angus breed. He has 17 genetic progeny on the ground with more to come, he is free of all recessives according to his DNA tests, not just by pedigree, and he is virile.

My question is this, DO YOU REALLY THINK that some fluke is going to occur when he is bred to our cows that will result in poor performers on the feedlot. If so why? What hidden issue is going to surface?

His sons that are working right now on several operations are doing so without any complaints, and the calves look nice. The sons are on herds that are not purebred Angus, they are on mixed herds.

Am I missing something, or are you guys just busting my b.....ls?

Branded, I mean this with the utmost respect.

I don't think anyone is busting your balls. I could be wrong. But I think most of it is just because it seems that you promote Angus as the only breed that's worth their salt. Whether or not that's your intention doesn't matter. I think it's still the perception most readers get. Nothing wrong with Angus. Also nothing wrong with any other breed. They all have strengths and weaknesses but every single breed brings something too the table. Angus happens to be the most popular. Nothing wrong with that. But a guy that has Simmental or Brimmers or Herefords doesn't constantly want to hear how Angus are perfect and his cattle aren't worth the crap that comes out their back end. I'm certainly not busting your balls I just felt obligated to let you know what I THINK the problem may be. Nothing wrong with being extremely biased. But if you are, you gotta be prepared for the repercussions that are gonna come from it. Again, not criticizing, just trying to help :tiphat:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

With the choice select spread at 1.11 It just don't make much difference today.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have mentioned Hereford and Shorthorn as well on here as high quality beef cattle options.

I hear you, no offense taken. The cattle business would be pretty boring if it were only one breed. I've said this before, if you work hard on your herd, no matter the breed, I respect the hustle.

Most of our bulls are at work on mixed herds, so I understand what you are saying.

 

[gcreekrch]

But it don't have to be Angus. The Brand is approved based on criteria not breed.

What read him as saying is that the carcasses presented were graded to see how many met CAB criteria and then they looked to see what their breeding was. That explains why only a sprinkling were Simmi influence.

That is simply a reflection of the total number of Angus in the beef population. Simmental score very well on carcass quality.

Don't forget, a lot of Holstein steers qualify also.

 

[Silver]

What read him as saying is that the carcasses presented were graded to see how many met CAB criteria and then they looked to see what their breeding was. That explains why only a sprinkling were Simmi influence.

That is simply a reflection of the total number of Angus in the beef population. Simmental score very well on carcass quality.

Don't forget, a lot of Holstein steers qualify also.

It always make me chuckle a little at the sale barn when I see someones calves listed as a certain breeding when I know well what the herd really is. If Simmies are hot, and there is a trace of it in the herd the calves tend to go as "Simmental X" or what have you. So it makes me wonder how "they" are determining what the breeding really was and what can really be learned from that.

 

[gcreekrch]

Lucky does make a good point that it would be valuable for Branded or any seedstock producer to have real world commercial data to support their bulls performance in commercial herds. They wouldn't need to buy land and create their own test though as I think they could just reach out to their bull customers to capture testimonials and sale barn weights and prices of their bull's calves. To take it another step, they could even follow the lead of some of the larger operations and offer a buyback program to their customer's steer calves and then retain ownership of the calves at a feed yard.. then they'd have carcass data too.
Another solution would be if any fellow CT members that offer seed stock want to lend me your very best bulls, I'll use the bulls on my herd and provide you as much data as you want.. :welcome:

Agreed.

 

[gcreekrch]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

Interesting, this operation was built on cheap cows and good bulls to get heifers that were better than their mama was. I still buy cheap cows and turn them into money.

The cows you have pictured may do very well for you in the environment you have created for them. Here, a cow of that size would weed herself out within two years with our, to you possibly, inferior management.

I may have missed somewhere in your statements, you mention your operation has been in business for decades. What has been managed so badly in the past that you are not using your own genetics? I shy from a bull supplier who doesn't have faith in their own cattle.

I have always favoured the quote my bull supplier uses, " It isn't how big they get, it is how quick they get big that matters."

I like my cows to top out at 12 to 1300 lbs, eat snowballs and promises and bring home an acceptable calf every year until I can sell her as a bred 8 or 9 year old cow and capitalize on her value as a replacement and not one destined for the kill plant.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

Interesting, this operation was built on cheap cows and good bulls to get heifers that were better than their mama was. I still buy cheap cows and turn them into money.

The cows you have pictured may do very well for you in the environment you have created for them. Here, a cow of that size would weed herself out within two years with our, to you possibly, inferior management.

I may have missed somewhere in your statements, you mention your operation has been in business for decades. What has been managed so badly in the past that you are not using your own genetics? I shy from a bull supplier who doesn't have faith in their own cattle.

I have always favoured the quote my bull supplier uses, " It isn't how big they get, it is how quick they get big that matters."

I like my cows to top out at 12 to 1300 lbs, eat snowballs and promises and bring home an acceptable calf every year until I can sell her as a bred 8 or 9 year old cow and capitalize on her value as a replacement and not one destined for the kill plant.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Interesting, this operation was built on cheap cows and good bulls to get heifers that were better than their mama was. I still buy cheap cows and turn them into money.

The cows you have pictured may do very well for you in the environment you have created for them. Here, a cow of that size would weed herself out within two years with our, to you possibly, inferior management.

I may have missed somewhere in your statements, you mention your operation has been in business for decades. What has been managed so badly in the past that you are not using your own genetics? I shy from a bull supplier who doesn't have faith in their own cattle.

I have always favoured the quote my bull supplier uses, " It isn't how big they get, it is how quick they get big that matters."

I like my cows to top out at 12 to 1300 lbs, eat snowballs and promises and bring home an acceptable calf every year until I can sell her as a bred 8 or 9 year old cow and capitalize on her value as a replacement and not one destined for the kill plant.

SAV used Coleman Charlo for one of the most successful matings in their history. They used an outside sire.

Ranches routinely use other ranches sires.

We have a SAV Harvestor son, that we bred and developed, he is going into service next month on older cows that we don't wish to Round up for AI, but are still good animals capable of producing a nice calf. His sons and daughters will registered, and I'm pretty certain will be above average. He's a homegrown bull.

When it comes time to sell bulls however, most buyers want a direct AI son. You can tell them how great your creation is, but at the end of the day they choose the AI son most of the time.

You are telling me to change the course of my program and make less per animal and inventory animals that are harder to sell, why?

I assume you really don't like ET where both sire and dam could be from different operations?

I respect what you do, nothing wrong with it, and it works according to what you have said and I trust you are being honest.

I understand residual average daily gain very well, I breed for that trait, hence one reason I like SAV genetics.

We have one bull at the moment that is almost 2600 pounds, and several of his sons are in development. They will probably be as big as him at maturity.

A 1200 pound cow might be able to handle a 2600 pound bull, but I would not use him on a cow that size.

We are working with different scenarios, nothing wrong with what you are doing or what I'm doing, What is working for you is what you should stick with in my opinion. If it ain't broke...you know the rest.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Different strokes for different folks. Some folks play with their cattle and some folks work with their cattle. Sorta like the difference between commercial and recreational fishing. One plays with their food the other produces food.

 

[Ebenezer]

I have always favoured the quote my bull supplier uses, " It isn't how big they get, it is how quick they get big that matters."

gcreekrch makes a point here that is key to the Bonsma selection and plays well for commercial herds. Early quick growth pays while late growth makes big mature weights. The selection for a growth curve type in cattle can be done with EPDs or with Bonsma selection techniques. Or you can do as I did and create the type by selection for environmental function and then realize later that it is the same type of animal that Bonsma observed and desired. Some poo poo Bonsma as a dreamer without data but he and the SA research farms had gobs of research and data. His writings are not poetry or opinion but fact filled. The mental capacity required is much bigger than a glance at a page with 20 EPD numbers. So, the easier route is to discount him due to lack of understanding or to call the research too old to count for anything. Quite a waste to avoid his writings in my opinion. But an opinion, only.

Last year a friend in GA wanted to start a black Angus herd. We did a good bit of research, study, contacts, sale visits and such. Long story short, the cattle in the SE USA states we considered did not often match the EPDs or the sale catalog descriptions. We ended up with him sourcing the herd from a herd in KY that has a philosophy somewhat as Bonsma. I have never asked them if Bonsma is a guide or an influence. But they select for quick early growth, decent carcass, highly functional females and work from a fescue base. As far as I know they use their own females and use the majority of home raised bulls to breed cows and heifers. They do buy outside bulls occasionally or AI but that is another story and has some secondary reasons. Their goals for early growth and carcass are not stagnate.

The beauty of their cattle is that they, like Becton Red Angus, have worked to avoid mature weight creep in their mature females while improving the end point quality and value of their bulls for the commercial folks. It is a refreshing switch to much that is said and done. And the cattle transitioned to GA to be several environments away from their base to do well and are currently calving and doing well.

I see the endpoint of any registered cattle as assisting the commercial producer to be as profitable as possible. That requires a focus on the commercial females and an eye towards the beef to the consumers. I guess that is why I do not fit the classic pattern of a mainstream purebred breeder. I am not the endpoint.

 

[gcreekrch]

Interesting, this operation was built on cheap cows and good bulls to get heifers that were better than their mama was. I still buy cheap cows and turn them into money.

The cows you have pictured may do very well for you in the environment you have created for them. Here, a cow of that size would weed herself out within two years with our, to you possibly, inferior management.

I may have missed somewhere in your statements, you mention your operation has been in business for decades. What has been managed so badly in the past that you are not using your own genetics? I shy from a bull supplier who doesn't have faith in their own cattle.

I have always favoured the quote my bull supplier uses, " It isn't how big they get, it is how quick they get big that matters."

I like my cows to top out at 12 to 1300 lbs, eat snowballs and promises and bring home an acceptable calf every year until I can sell her as a bred 8 or 9 year old cow and capitalize on her value as a replacement and not one destined for the kill plant.

SAV used Coleman Charlo for one of the most successful matings in their history. They used an outside sire.

Ranches routinely use other ranches sires.

We have a SAV Harvestor son, that we bred and developed, he is going into service next month on older cows that we don't wish to Round up for AI, but are still good animals capable of producing a nice calf. His sons and daughters will registered, and I'm pretty certain will be above average. He's a homegrown bull.

When it comes time to sell bulls however, most buyers want a direct AI son. You can tell them how great your creation is, but at the end of the day they choose the AI son most of the time.

You are telling me to change the course of my program and make less per animal and inventory animals that are harder to sell, why?

I assume you really don't like ET where both sire and dam could be from different operations?

I respect what you do, nothing wrong with it, and it works according to what you have said and I trust you are being honest.

I understand residual average daily gain very well, I breed for that trait, hence one reason I like SAV genetics.

We have one bull at the moment that is almost 2600 pounds, and several of his sons are in development. They will probably be as big as him at maturity.

A 1200 pound cow might be able to handle a 2600 pound bull, but I would not use him on a cow that size.

We are working with different scenarios, nothing wrong with what you are doing or what I'm doing, What is working for you is what you should stick with in my opinion. If it ain't broke...you know the rest.

I am not telling you to change your program, I asked what was so wrong with your decades old herd that you changed it...….

I am busy enough to not need the extra burden of AI and ET, IMO, they are both extra expenditures for the end product. A bull supplier using other's genetics doesn't say much for their own herd unless they are just starting out.

If a bull is athletic enough and not overweight, he should be able to breed a cow of any size. I doubt your bull would weigh 2200 if he was in actual working condition. We have sold cull bulls weighing a ton many times. Would rather they stopped growing at 17 or 1800, they last longer that way in this rough country..