Do your steers make the cut?

[Bright Raven]

Just trying to raise your operation to the next level..

I appreciate that. :cboy:

Together we could have made Gimli into the hottest young bull in the Sim breed.. but, alas, you lacked foresight and had to demand payment. :roll:

Lol

 

[Lucky]

I will say this about the Angus breed they breed back faster than any other cattle I've owned and last along time. I have several friends with registered Angus herds. A couple do it for bulls and replacement heifers and a few more actually register and sell their stuff. They all have commercial cattle too. I've bought both AI sired bulls and ET bulls and know people that do both also. It's not rocket science. I guess now days you can get about any combo you want and stick the embryo in the sorriest cow you own and come out with a crackerjack. Too complicated for me, never know maybe someday I'll try it.

 

[Lucky]

LUCKY

You ask another User a question - nay, 3 questions. They provide you a detailed response and you don't show any appreciation for their effort!!!!!!

Your response is a RUDE critique of their response???? To a point of telling them how they should run their operation.

Well, you sure ain't no "Cowboy". My advice to James is to totally ignore you.

You are probably right Raven.

Branded I apologize if I was a little rough with my questions I do appreciate yout input and you seem like a knowledgeable guy. The seedstock guys constantly pimping what they sell but not doing anything themselves but running 20-40 head gets old. It's my opinion as well as many others on this board it seems that the Angus Assocation has done the commercial cattleman a huge disservice. All you have to say to my line of questions is simple answers though.

1. Not interested yearlings/ stockers are too risky.

2. I would like to expand but not interested in going into a ton of debt at this stage.

3. Refer to #1

Instead a got the run around and Angus pimping talk.

Raven I "definitely ain't no cowboy". Thinking about trying a Simbrah Bull though so might outta tune up my skills. At least the rope won't give me blisters.

I think your answers and questions were fine myself. It's called walking the talk. If someone could produce a bull that would add 200 lbs to your calves on the same nutrition he'd be rich overnight. But in all fairness any terminal bull including Angus will add growth. Angus has gone down on birthweights and it's affected the terminal side. Simmental is following right along like a good puppy dog. Brahman anything for terminal is had to beat as long as you don't retain ownership.

Thanks for seeing my side TG 6 pages of bragging was getting to be too much for me. If someone could guarantee me a 750 pound calf on day 205 I'd buy their bulls. All the really big weaning size calves I see have been on creep feed for along time. I have a creep feeder and know how that deal works.....more bragging rights is what you end up with.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I will say this about the Angus breed they breed back faster than any other cattle I've owned and last along time. I have several friends with registered Angus herds. A couple do it for bulls and replacement heifers and a few more actually register and sell their stuff. They all have commercial cattle too. I've bought both AI sired bulls and ET bulls and know people that do both also. It's not rocket science. I guess now days you can get about any combo you want and stick the embryo in the sorriest cow you own and come out with a crackerjack. Too complicated for me, never know maybe someday I'll try it.

That doesn't work, it takes a good cow to raise a good calf. If you have the feed a Holstein makes about as good of a recip cow as you'll find. You just don't want folks to be able to see them from the road.

 

[Silver]

Why not?, Angus is a brand, tell me one sale in the state of Kentucky that will bring in as much money as the top Registered Angus sales. Fancy black steers always top the market. What if you produced Fancy Black that weaned off at 205 at 750-800 pounds and had a couple of semi truck loads. Do you think you would be crying the blues when you got your check? Angus is big business, no offense at all with the other breeds you mentioned, but they are barely in the running. Boyd's switched to Angus for a reason. Angus has a massive database of data, and if you know how to use it, then you have money in the bank

Well, what comes around tends to go around. I would certainly argue your point about fancy black steers topping the market. In these parts anyway. They had a few seasons in the sun, but it appears to be waning now. Personally, I've never seen straight angus steers top the market, mostly because in these parts they are never the heaviest.
I asked two buyers last year what the problem was with the straight bred angus steers. Both guys told me pretty much the same story. Angus feed well enough, but when an angus steer is fat you have to slaughter, every day you don't is money down the drain. All you get is a steer the same size with more fat on it. But an exotic or exotic cross you can continue to feed after the steer is finished, and even though the steer is finished it will continue to grow and be profitable for a time. So in an uncertain market they tend to shy away from straight bred angus.
I like a little angus in my cow herd, I can definitely see some benefits. I figure 1/2 angus in a cow is plenty, that will give me a calf that will be 3/8 angus on the higher end and that's plenty for me.
I spent way too many years watching the black angus cattle taking a beating on sale day to jump on that wagon.

Our markets are worlds apart is seems. Here anything that is not black or at least BWF brings less at the stockyard.

It was that way here for a few years. Fads come and go.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Time will tell Silver, time will tell.

 

[Bigfoot]

Probably one of the most informative threads we've had in a while.

 

[Bright Raven]

Well, what comes around tends to go around. I would certainly argue your point about fancy black steers topping the market. In these parts anyway. They had a few seasons in the sun, but it appears to be waning now. Personally, I've never seen straight angus steers top the market, mostly because in these parts they are never the heaviest.
I asked two buyers last year what the problem was with the straight bred angus steers. Both guys told me pretty much the same story. Angus feed well enough, but when an angus steer is fat you have to slaughter, every day you don't is money down the drain. All you get is a steer the same size with more fat on it. But an exotic or exotic cross you can continue to feed after the steer is finished, and even though the steer is finished it will continue to grow and be profitable for a time. So in an uncertain market they tend to shy away from straight bred angus.
I like a little angus in my cow herd, I can definitely see some benefits. I figure 1/2 angus in a cow is plenty, that will give me a calf that will be 3/8 angus on the higher end and that's plenty for me.
I spent way too many years watching the black angus cattle taking a beating on sale day to jump on that wagon.

Our markets are worlds apart is seems. Here anything that is not black or at least BWF brings less at the stockyard.

It was that way here for a few years. Fads come and go.

You may be correct but something has to undermine the leg up that the black hides have as a result of truly ingenious marketing by CAB. Cuss it, lie about it, slander it, spit on it, whatever....it has been effective.

 

[Silver]

Our markets are worlds apart is seems. Here anything that is not black or at least BWF brings less at the stockyard.

It was that way here for a few years. Fads come and go.

You may be correct but something has to undermine the leg up that the black hides have as a result of truly ingenious marketing by CAB. Cuss it, lie about it, slander it, spit on it, whatever....it has been effective.

I would never deny that CAB has been a brilliant marketing plan. There is even an argument to be made that it has been good for the beef industry as a whole. But nothing ever stays the same, empires fall, and in the mean time I'll just keep trying to improve the cattle I've got. I can tell you that at the sale barn this fall I was very happy to have stayed the course over the years and not gone off on a tangent.

 

[Bright Raven]

It was that way here for a few years. Fads come and go.

You may be correct but something has to undermine the leg up that the black hides have as a result of truly ingenious marketing by CAB. Cuss it, lie about it, slander it, spit on it, whatever....it has been effective.

I would never deny that CAB has been a brilliant marketing plan. There is even an argument to be made that it has been good for the beef industry as a whole. But nothing ever stays the same, empires fall, and in the mean time I'll just keep trying to improve the cattle I've got. I can tell you that at the sale barn this fall I was very happy to have stayed the course over the years and not gone off on a tangent.

Acknowledged

 

[Lucky]

I will say this about the Angus breed they breed back faster than any other cattle I've owned and last along time. I have several friends with registered Angus herds. A couple do it for bulls and replacement heifers and a few more actually register and sell their stuff. They all have commercial cattle too. I've bought both AI sired bulls and ET bulls and know people that do both also. It's not rocket science. I guess now days you can get about any combo you want and stick the embryo in the sorriest cow you own and come out with a crackerjack. Too complicated for me, never know maybe someday I'll try it.

That doesn't work, it takes a good cow to raise a good calf. If you have the feed a Holstein makes about as good of a recip cow as you'll find. You just don't want folks to be able to see them from the road.

Yea I know it takes a good cow to raise a good calf. I talked with a man that dealt in nothing but angus based recip cows. He was buying a couple thousand head a year of good open cows from big ranches and selling them as recips. I guess these guys run the bulls for 45-60 days and sell all the opens to him. He sonogramed them to guarantee open and had buyers standing in line. He sold any that came up bred in groups. I didn't know there was that type of market but guess there is.

 

[CattleMan1920]

It was said that we were running 20-40 head, and that we are "pimping" our product. That's not the case, we are double that number and will be over 100-125 registered in 2020. With nearly 2/3 of the herd or more directly from AI. We will eventually be AI'ng, naturally at least 100 cows/heifers a year that are not exposed to a cleanup bull. They will all have calves where the parentage is proven via DNA test. That's no small task, and when I hear that our efforts are not up to snuff, think about what I just said above.

Sometimes I want to ignore the questions as Bright Raven recommended, but I've had the same questions in person and at the feed store, so ignoring them would mean that I somehow feel superior to other cattle producers or see their operations as unimportant compared to mine, which I don't. This business that we have chosen, is not easy and any meaningful results take hard work, it's not a business that is quick and easy, unless you are very wealthy and you just assemble an insta herd, and pay people to do every last thing for you, in which case why bother, there are probably more efficient areas in the overall economy to employ capital. We do this because we love it, we love the challenge and the GRIT it develops in one's character, if done well.

My criticism is of the people that that don't give a crap about their animals or take the easy route, hoping for big results. If you are trying and learning, I'm in it with you side by side. If you think everything is a joke, then yes, I choose to ignore you.

Anyone who is truly serious about the business has put pencil to paper and looked at where the highest profits reside, my bet is on Angus. Will I be right, only time will tell. Everyone has to place their bet where they feel lucky, and I feel lucky with registered Angus.

I know many registered Angus producers would NEVER get on this board and discuss cattle, especially not revealing their operation name. That's ok, I understand. However with that said, yesterday I called the owner of Bubs Southern Charm because people on Cattle Today were trashing the bull, they truly were clueless, and I wanted to know the truth. The lady who owns him took 40 minutes out of her busy day to talk about him in great detail. She answered every question completely and what I felt was absolutely in an honest manner. Had she ignored me, I would have left with doubts, but her efforts to answer my tough questions led to me wanting to double down and use her bull even more aggressively on some of my best heifers. By the way expect some fireworks from the Southern Charm crosses that I have in store, good stuff on its way.

If the conversation here can be civil and the questions legit, then keep them coming. We are all better in the process.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

 

[CattleMan1920]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Pencil out? They went to the stockyards, I usually sold them in the 700-800 pound range. Our bulls are not on creep feed, and usually wean off in the 650-800 pound (adjusted 205) range. The dams play a big role, they are well cared for and raised a nice big calf, and have what they need as far as inputs to do it, almost always while settled back.

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

I can only tell you what I'm doing, I can't make promises on a herd I've never seen, nor know anything about. I breed big, solid AI sires to cows that are a minimum of 1700 pounds. Heifers are bred to calving ease, but not extreme calving ease sires. If we do use a cleanup bull, it's the one you have seen posted, and he produces really nice calves for a non-AI sire. We will probably use our SAV President, International, and Harvestor sons from time to time as needed, and I anticipate that they will produce some very nice calves as well.

The cows in a producer's operation dictate a LOT of what happens at weaning, again, you cannot rely on the bull to do everything. I think you know that.

 

[bball]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Pencil out? They went to the stockyards, I usually sold them in the 700-800 pound range. Our bulls are not on creep feed, and usually wean off in the 650-800 pound (adjusted 205) range. The dams play a big role, they are well cared for and raised a nice big calf, and have what they need as far as inputs to do it, almost always while settled back.

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

I can only tell you what I'm doing, I can't make promises on a herd I've never seen, nor know anything about. I breed big, solid AI sires to cows that are a minimum of 1700 pounds. Heifers are bred to calving ease, but not extreme calving ease sires. If we do use a cleanup bull, it's the one you have seen posted, and he produces really nice calves for a non-AI sire. We will probably use our SAV President, International, and Harvestor sons from time to time as needed, and I anticipate that they will produce some very nice calves as well.

The cows in a producer's operation dictate a LOT of what happens at weaning, again, you cannot rely on the bull to do everything. I think you know that.

Good points.
Something else that is just as important as the genetics of dam and sire, is the nutritional content of what is available for grazing. I enjoy reading your posts Branded. I also admire your passion and the amount of time and resources you have invested in your program. Here is the fly in my ointment. I live smack dab in row crop country. Consequently, the ground used here for pasture is either sand knobs or low ground. Neither one known for fantastic vegetative productivity; else, it'd be in corn or beans :roll:
I have slowly been changing my herd to more efficiently utilize this ground. (I am a small time pipsqueak with 25-35 cows on 125 acres pasture/hayfields). At one time I ran mostly angus and sim-angus cross cattle. They struggled to maintain condition and wean heavy calfs without supplementation in my environment/management style. I have been adding Hereford dams to replace those ciws as we cull for age or other issues. Was using a Connealy bull on those Herefords and making some decent crosses. The Herefords seem to hold up better in this environment; maintain better BCS, better wean wts, tolerate harsh winters better. How would you expect one of your bulls to perform as an integral part of a crossbreeding based program with Herefords; making F1 females and steers to a local feed lot?

 

[Lucky]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Pencil out? They went to the stockyards, I usually sold them in the 700-800 pound range. Our bulls are not on creep feed, and usually wean off in the 650-800 pound (adjusted 205) range. The dams play a big role, they are well cared for and raised a nice big calf, and have what they need as far as inputs to do it, almost always while settled back.

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

I can only tell you what I'm doing, I can't make promises on a herd I've never seen, nor know anything about. I breed big, solid AI sires to cows that are a minimum of 1700 pounds. Heifers are bred to calving ease, but not extreme calving ease sires. If we do use a cleanup bull, it's the one you have seen posted, and he produces really nice calves for a non-AI sire. We will probably use our SAV President, International, and Harvestor sons from time to time as needed, and I anticipate that they will produce some very nice calves as well.

The cows in a producer's operation dictate a LOT of what happens at weaning, again, you cannot rely on the bull to do everything. I think you know that.

Thank you sir, this is the answer I was looking for. Too many times you see these big beautiful ranches with big Angus cows in belly deep grass and calves that are nearly as big as their mama. Problem is that's not reality for most ranches. Allot goes into raising good calves the bull is probably only 30% of it. I run some Angus and probably always will but they are not the only breed out there and they don't work in all environments.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Pencil out? They went to the stockyards, I usually sold them in the 700-800 pound range. Our bulls are not on creep feed, and usually wean off in the 650-800 pound (adjusted 205) range. The dams play a big role, they are well cared for and raised a nice big calf, and have what they need as far as inputs to do it, almost always while settled back.

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

I can only tell you what I'm doing, I can't make promises on a herd I've never seen, nor know anything about. I breed big, solid AI sires to cows that are a minimum of 1700 pounds. Heifers are bred to calving ease, but not extreme calving ease sires. If we do use a cleanup bull, it's the one you have seen posted, and he produces really nice calves for a non-AI sire. We will probably use our SAV President, International, and Harvestor sons from time to time as needed, and I anticipate that they will produce some very nice calves as well.

The cows in a producer's operation dictate a LOT of what happens at weaning, again, you cannot rely on the bull to do everything. I think you know that.

So you never fed out any steers to see if your end product was meeting today's standards, or that your steers were profitable in a feedlot?
You maybe breeding for seed stock on your operation, but at the end of the road steers are your final product, even if someone else owns them.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Good points.
Something else that is just as important as the genetics of dam and sire, is the nutritional content of what is available for grazing. I enjoy reading your posts Branded. I also admire your passion and the amount of time and resources you have invested in your program. Here is the fly in my ointment. I live smack dab in row crop country. Consequently, the ground used here for pasture is either sand knobs or low ground. Neither one known for fantastic vegetative productivity; else, it'd be in corn or beans :roll:
I have slowly been changing my herd to more efficiently utilize this ground. (I am a small time pipsqueak with 25-35 cows on 125 acres pasture/hayfields). At one time I ran mostly angus and sim-angus cross cattle. They struggled to maintain condition and wean heavy calfs without supplementation in my environment/management style. I have been adding Hereford dams to replace those ciws as we cull for age or other issues. Was using a Connealy bull on those Herefords and making some decent crosses. The Herefords seem to hold up better in this environment; maintain better BCS, better wean wts, tolerate harsh winters better. How would you expect one of your bulls to perform as an integral part of a crossbreeding based program with Herefords; making F1 females and steers to a local feed lot?

Thank you for what you said. I read your post carefully and here are my thoughts. I like Connealy genetics, especially Capitalist. I think you would benefit from high $EN and DMI sires, problem is those traits tend to deliver calves on the light side.

As for Hereford versus Angus, they are both great beef cattle. Obviously I'm partial to Angus, as you can tell. Hereford beef when done right like Angus is really good.

I'm confused when I hear people say that Angus don't hold up. I would like to see what the Angus in question look like and how they are being cared for. I can't speak for others, but if it had been -40 below, our cattle would have been fine. Would I have calved in -40, no, let's have some common sense (not implying you said that).

I have some bulls available right now that should be VERY efficient based on their genomic epds and those of the sire and dam, DMI and $EN, but I don't think they will have overly big weaning weights (they would probably produce 575-675 205's with no creep feed) unless your mommas are doing their jobs as well. If I were selling to the feedlot, which I'm not, but if I were I would want to see a bull that has high marbling EPD's, as well as high $QG and $YG. I have some that deliver that, but they lose some of the DMI and $EN in the process. Not overly so, but they sure aren't in the top 3% of the breed for DMI and $EN and still have the other traits you seek.

What you are asking for is a highly efficient animal that can marble well and perform on the feedlot. I'm not sure of the marbling scores on your dams, but maybe cross a high $EN, DMI sire to those Hereford dams and see what results. It could work very well. Another thing I like about the purebred Angus momma, a good one at that, is that they produce VERY RICH milk, that helps to get that calf up there in size. I know people will come after me on that one, but it's true, Angus milk is like heavy cream to that growing calf.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Pencil out? They went to the stockyards, I usually sold them in the 700-800 pound range. Our bulls are not on creep feed, and usually wean off in the 650-800 pound (adjusted 205) range. The dams play a big role, they are well cared for and raised a nice big calf, and have what they need as far as inputs to do it, almost always while settled back.

It's kind of hard to make promises on weaning weights for other producer's herds. I may have a top bull that will perform, but said producer which he is sold to may not have high-performance cows, that can raise a calf to make that bull shine. A bull can do a lot, but he is not a miracle worker. Common sense is not there with some people. They think, "hey I have this half dead cow that I bought at the yards for $300, let me put a good bull on her and watch the magic happen" Chances are very high, it never will.

I can only tell you what I'm doing, I can't make promises on a herd I've never seen, nor know anything about. I breed big, solid AI sires to cows that are a minimum of 1700 pounds. Heifers are bred to calving ease, but not extreme calving ease sires. If we do use a cleanup bull, it's the one you have seen posted, and he produces really nice calves for a non-AI sire. We will probably use our SAV President, International, and Harvestor sons from time to time as needed, and I anticipate that they will produce some very nice calves as well.

The cows in a producer's operation dictate a LOT of what happens at weaning, again, you cannot rely on the bull to do everything. I think you know that.

So you never fed out any steers to see if your end product was meeting today's standards, or that your steers were profitable in a feedlot?
You maybe breeding for seed stock on your operation, but at the end of the road steers are your final product, even if someone else owns them.

I agree, but when most of your clients take everything to the stockyards it's hard to keep track. You never mention anything about retaining daughters. I would think that when buying a bull that you would want to keep that in mind. I rarely hear anyone mention the "daughters", you are right, they always talk about "steers". Well if you never advance the maternal side of your herd, you are filling a bucket with a hole in it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a bull buyer gloss over the retention of daughters and be solely focused on the sale of steers. Made me wonder a lot of things...

 

[CattleMan1920]

So how many of your steers pencil out?

Thank you sir, this is the answer I was looking for. Too many times you see these big beautiful ranches with big Angus cows in belly deep grass and calves that are nearly as big as their mama. Problem is that's not reality for most ranches. Allot goes into raising good calves the bull is probably only 30% of it. I run some Angus and probably always will but they are not the only breed out there and they don't work in all environments.

Lucky, our ranch is far from "BIG or Beautiful". We have belly deep grass because of where we are in the Bluegrass region of KY, we are also belly deep in red clover. I'm not trying to compare KY to West Texas, why would I? You don't see a comparison between a 40hp tractor and a 150hp tractor on Youtube, they are two entirely different things.

Many breeds of cattle can work in many environments, that's true, but Angus are highly adaptable cattle. Try putting a Zebu cow out on the range beside an SAV Angus cow in the North Dakota weather, it would be game over for the Zebu, but Angus can range from Northern Canada to Florida, from Maryland to California, They are in Argentina, Uruguay, Russia, Australia, and the list goes on. I respect your views, but Angus cattle are versatile, and that's one of the reasons why people use them.