Do your steers make the cut?

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The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."
 
Excellent post CC2.
Particularly
I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
Been there, done that. Thankfully recognized the folly of swallowing the Kool Aide before it was too late.
 
Chocolate Cow2 said:
The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."

We never trim feet on our bulls. Ever! Every bull gets a BSE before leaving the ranch. Our bulls eat some exceptional hay and get a grain supplement after weaning, (not before, no creep) right up until they are ready to leave the farm. If there are ever any issues with the bull that is our responsibility, then that bull will be replaced immediately.

As for not using our own bulls. The weather has become so bad here that we put three bulls out to work a couple days ago and have forgone AI on a few groups for now.

They probably won't deliver calves that are on par with those out of SAV President, but they should be well above average.

One is an Unmistakable son we have out of a McCumber Angus (a more than average operation if you do your homework), and grandson of OCC Unmistakable. I think OCC produces cattle for real cattlemen right? The other is a son out of Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870, a bull bred by Jim Willson and Frei Angus in South Dakota. (A hidden gem of a ranch, that few folks know about)

The son we are using out of the Crook Mount Black Cedar 3870 bull and a Joy Erica dam probably has the best feet I have ever seen on an Angus bull on our operation. The sire is from a herd that has some of the VERY BEST feet in the Angus breed, AND they run a feedlot, AND they check off all the things that you commercial producers require. In fact, they have a commercial operation FYI.

I don't "prop up" anything, but yes the inputs we feed are the best. Why would any sensible person request a bull that had been developed on low quality, substandard nutrition? That's not a smart move if you want a high-performance bull, but some people have to learn the hard way, with cows that remain open. I've heard plenty of stories of bulls that didn't get the job done, and open cows are expensive for the commercial producer.

Our bulls go into service around 15-18 months, and they are NOT treated like powder puffs. Once they leave here, their best days are behind them for the most part because they are going to be used hard. In Kentucky, it is not uncommon for someone to buy a nice bull, use him, then haul him to a relatives farm, use him some more, then let 2-3 neighbors use him, before he goes to the stockyards, is purchased again, and is used until he dies in the field. Life ain't so easy for a bull in Kentucky.

Here is a sample of one of our homegrown, "over conditioned, super fat, slow, non-athletic, powderpuffs" you describe on here without ever stepping foot on our operation. This bull really isn't any of above, he's an athlete, with great feet, he will settle 25-30 as a 15 month with ease. We have him at work right now and have no doubt that he will produce some nice daughters and sons/steers. Without getting into it with you guys, I don't understand how you all have a complete grasp of our operation, and talk it down, without coming over and walking around the cattle. You are acting more like armchair quarterbacks than cattlemen.



By the way, on the recommendation of Bright Raven, here are some pics of our Stone Gate sire taking care of some ladies a few days ago. Let me know if you if you want some sons out of him. Not too many bulls in Kentucky that look as good as him, he's the real article.



 
Chocolate Cow2 said:
The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."

SAV will have their production sale this Saturday on the 9th. They will sell 500+ bulls and 230 females, all registered Angus. I'm nearly 110% certain that place will be full of "hardcore commercial ranchers" buying not 1 or 2 bulls but probably more like 10-20 at a pop. SAV will probably gross over $10 million in sales in one day.

If that is "fluff" or "promotion and commotion" Then please sign me up because I would rather be in their camp versus what I see in most of Kentucky.
 
************* said:
Chocolate Cow2 said:
The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."

We never trim feet on our bulls. Ever! Every bull gets a BSE before leaving the ranch. Our bulls eat some exceptional hay and get a grain supplement after weaning, (not before, no creep) right up until they are ready to leave the farm. If there are ever any issues with the bull that is our responsibility, then that bull will be replaced immediately.

As for not using our own bulls. The weather has become so bad here that we put three bulls out to work a couple days ago and have forgone AI on a few groups for now.

They probably won't deliver calves that are on par with those out of SAV President, but they should be well above average.

One is an Unmistakable son we have out of a McCumber Angus (a more than average operation if you do your homework), and grandson of OCC Unmistakable. I think OCC produces cattle for real cattlemen right? The other is a son out of Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870, a bull bred by Jim Willson and Frei Angus in South Dakota. (A hidden gem of a ranch, that few folks know about)

The son we are using out of the Crook Mount Black Cedar 3870 bull and a Joy Erica dam probably has the best feet I have ever seen on an Angus bull on our operation. The sire is from a herd that has some of the VERY BEST feet in the Angus breed, AND they run a feedlot, AND they check off all the things that you commercial producers require. In fact, they have a commercial operation FYI.

I don't "prop up" anything, but yes the inputs we feed are the best. Why would any sensible person request a bull that had been developed on low quality, substandard nutrition? That's not a smart move if you want a high-performance bull, but some people have to learn the hard way, with cows that remain open. I've heard plenty of stories of bulls that didn't get the job done, and open cows are expensive for the commercial producer.

Our bulls go into service around 15-18 months, and they are NOT treated like powder puffs. Once they leave here, their best days are behind them for the most part because they are going to be used hard. In Kentucky, it is not uncommon for someone to buy a nice bull, use him, then haul him to a relatives farm, use him some more, then let 2-3 neighbors use him, before he goes to the stockyards, is purchased again, and is used until he dies in the field. Life ain't so easy for a bull in Kentucky.

Here is a sample of one of our homegrown, "over conditioned, super fat, slow, non-athletic, powderpuffs" you describe on here without ever stepping foot on our operation. This bull really isn't any of above, he's an athlete, with great feet, he will settle 25-30 as a 15 month with ease. We have him at work right now and have no doubt that he will produce some nice daughters and sons/steers. Without getting into it with you guys, I don't understand how you all have a complete grasp of our operation, and talk it down, without coming over and walking around the cattle. You are acting more like armchair quarterbacks than cattlemen.



By the way, on the recommendation of Bright Raven, here are some pics of our Stone Gate sire taking care of some ladies a few days ago. Let me know if you if you want some sons out of him. Not too many bulls in Kentucky that look as good as him, he's the real article.




Excellent response, Branded. Just stick to facts. Making it a pizzing match is for little people. I hope you treat us to more pictures. I realize now is a tough time with the weather but I look forward to seeing your unique herd of Angus.
 
So you know, Branded, I have hauled bull calves to McCumber's from a cooperator herd in Oklahoma.
Raven, I'm not making this a pizzing match for little people. I've chased numbers. They couldn't get big enough for me. I've hauled 2000lb open cows to town. I've been proud in the fact that my cows were so big I could only put 8 in my 7x20 trailer. I've seen the declining condition of the cows as I hauled more hay to them. I've sat at my desk with a calculator to find that my calf check wouldn't cover my expenses.

Absolutely No, Branded. I wouldn't turn out one of your bulls. This year I'll turn out 8 bulls and all but 2 will be home raised. My goal is to turn out all home raised bulls. They are a product of my environment and my management. I'm not 'into' performance cattle. I'm into quiet, calm, fertile cows who know how to take care of their calf while thriving on grass.
Larry Leonhardt said "the best cow is the one who goes un-noticed the longest."

I don't care how many bulls and cows and heifers SAV sells. It's nothing but :bs: to me.

I'm not asking you to change your program. It's a free country. The things you brag about darn near put me out of business.
 
Chocolate Cow2 said:
So you know, Branded, I have hauled bull calves to McCumber's from a cooperator herd in Oklahoma.
Raven, I'm not making this a pizzing match for little people.

Good. We all appreciate a civil discussion without getting personal. Thank you. You are going to win support with a great attitude like this.
 
Sounds like Larry would have loved the old days when you just rounded up cattle that were wandering around the Texas/Mexico border.

BTW CC2, that Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870 son I have in service is hardcore, he has feet that could handle anything you throw at him. Don't feet matter to you? And also he has DMI an $EN in top 15% of the breed. Efficient on grass, very efficient!
 
************* said:
Sounds like Larry would have loved the old days when you just rounded up cattle that were wandering around the Texas/Mexico border.

BTW CC2, that Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870 son I have in service is hardcore, he has feet that could handle anything you throw at him. Don't feet matter to you? And also he has DMI an $EN in top 15% of the breed. Efficient on grass, very efficient!
Since BR wants to referee, grade responses, take sides, judge folks on being big, medium or small and and keep others civil, let me kindly ask BH, do you know who Larry Leonhardt was or what he did?
 
************* said:
Chocolate Cow2 said:
The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."

SAV will have their production sale this Saturday on the 9th. They will sell 500+ bulls and 230 females, all registered Angus. I'm nearly 110% certain that place will be full of "hardcore commercial ranchers" buying not 1 or 2 bulls but probably more like 10-20 at a pop. SAV will probably gross over $10 million in sales in one day.

If that is "fluff" or "promotion and commotion" Then please sign me up because I would rather be in their camp versus what I see in most of Kentucky.
To be fair their sale report from last year said they sold cattle to 34 different states and two foreign countries. So they spread them out quite a bit. Like you said earlier Kelly Schaff is quite the marketer. No I wouldn't want their advertising bill.

My personal take on the whole program is they have some great cattle but under their management I can't tell which ones won't work at my place and I am too old to go back and do the sorting for someone else's mistakes. I don't want to do the heavy lifting. They do have some very good cattle.
 
Ebenezer said:
************* said:
Sounds like Larry would have loved the old days when you just rounded up cattle that were wandering around the Texas/Mexico border.

BTW CC2, that Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870 son I have in service is hardcore, he has feet that could handle anything you throw at him. Don't feet matter to you? And also he has DMI an $EN in top 15% of the breed. Efficient on grass, very efficient!
Since BR wants to referee, grade responses, take sides, judge folks on being big, medium or small and and keep others civil, let me kindly ask BH, do you know who Larry Leonhardt was or what he did?

Is this Cattle Today Jeopardy? I will take "forget about your cattle and check on them once per year" for a $1000.
 
************* said:
Ebenezer said:
************* said:
Sounds like Larry would have loved the old days when you just rounded up cattle that were wandering around the Texas/Mexico border.

BTW CC2, that Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870 son I have in service is hardcore, he has feet that could handle anything you throw at him. Don't feet matter to you? And also he has DMI an $EN in top 15% of the breed. Efficient on grass, very efficient!
Since BR wants to referee, grade responses, take sides, judge folks on being big, medium or small and and keep others civil, let me kindly ask BH, do you know who Larry Leonhardt was or what he did?

Is this Cattle Today Jeopardy? I will take "forget about your cattle and check on them once per year" for a $1000.
No answer, no money. Your loss.
 
Ebenezer said:
************* said:
Ebenezer said:
Since BR wants to referee, grade responses, take sides, judge folks on being big, medium or small and and keep others civil, let me kindly ask BH, do you know who Larry Leonhardt was or what he did?

Is this Cattle Today Jeopardy? I will take "forget about your cattle and check on them once per year" for a $1000.
No answer, no money. Your loss.

So who is Larry Leonhardt?
 
TennesseeTuxedo said:
Ebenezer said:
************* said:
Is this Cattle Today Jeopardy? I will take "forget about your cattle and check on them once per year" for a $1000.
No answer, no money. Your loss.

So who is Larry Leonhardt?

TT. You posted on the thread.
https://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92624
 
NEFarmwife said:
Can I get a brief rundown on this thread? LOL.

I basically wanted some real world info on CAB. Wanted to know who on here had steers that made the cut. It turned in to an absolute sh...t show in no time. There you have it.
 
Bright Raven said:
TennesseeTuxedo said:
Ebenezer said:
No answer, no money. Your loss.

So who is Larry Leonhardt?

TT. You posted on the thread.
https://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92624

I just read this link above. Here are my thoughts. Even Warren Buffett has been extremely wrong at times. He completely missed Microsoft, and went with some real stinkers instead. He is still an incredible investor, but time and patience has helped him more than prescient stock picking.

Considering that, a fund manager, or pension fund manager that functioned in the 60's and 70's would have a VERY HARD time dealing with the quants and the black box, high-frequency trading to 2019. In addition, they would be stuck playing the Dogs of the Dow strategy, while Apple, Google, and Amazon, as well as Microsoft completely ATE THEIR LUNCH. Nobody would touch Apple in 1998, it was a complete loser, everyone wanted Yahoo, how did that turn out for ya over the long haul? What I'm trying to say is this, YES chasing fads will oftentimes turn out to be disastrous, but not chasing them can equally be perilous for your future. You have to take risks. nothing ventured, nothing gain. Fortune favors the bold, and as Bud Foxx said in the movie Wall Street "there is no nobility in poverty".

How does this relate to the cattle business? Well, I think that when you see a program such as SAV which is having a sale this Saturday, and you look at their success, you have to scratch your head and wonder "Should I be part of this train that is leaving the station" or "should I completely miss the train and WALK"

Nobody knows if SAV President or SAV America 8018 will be the next GREAT Angus bulls, but I can tell you this, reflecting back on the wisdom of ONE MAN and relying wholly on that wisdom is not going to do you any favors in my opinion. Man is fallible, he makes mistakes, another reason I want to use more Bubs Southern Charm, because I think Holly knows her business and knows it well. I digress, but when I say we are all fallible, we definitely can make mistakes, and if you are reading this and think you are free of mistakes, then just wait for your Joe Btfsplk moment, because it's on the way for you and those that follow you blindly.

Question everything my friends, and experiment. Most great things in this world came about from those that experimented and took the road less traveled.
 

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