Do your cows eat GRASS??

[rkaiser]

Yes cow size has a lot to do with this grass feeding thing. The hard part about changing breeds to accommodate the change to smaller sized animals is that it takes time. All breeds can change - few have the advantage of almost always being there. Galloways and Welsh Blacks have been our choice and selection within our breeds is also essential.

We moved down to 4 pounds of barley on our growing yearling bulls last year and have moved away from grain all together on this years calf crop. Only non fertilised mixed grass and legume hay, and a complete natural mineral. Second winter our coming Two year old bulls still receive some grain as it is tough to sell green bulls in the spring.

By the way - calving in Late April - May and selling bulls at about 20 months in February.

Good luck to all of those raising calves that wean heavy but need barley or corn from weaning on to create a carcass that will grade and eat well with a rib eye that will fit on a plate.

The exciting part about downsizing the North American herd is the potential to regain some of the protein market we have lost by trying to fit the hook at Cargill and Tyson's plants and ignoring the consumers palate.

 

[dun]

While I agree that down siziing to a degree is a good thing, but you still have to supply what your customer wants. Unless you direct market, your customer is the feedlot or slaughterhouse. When I get docked or can't even sell 5 frame calves I'll stick with the 6-6.5 and not take a beating. Even sally home maker doesn;t want the extreme of small ribeyes. Have a nieghbor with an excellent looking herd of good grading Red Angus. He bought into Pharos propaganda a number of years ago. Even with #1 muscle he can;t sell the small #2 frames.
The deal is to avoid any extreme for any trait. It would be great if you could breed FS 4 cos to FS 8 bulls and get FS 6 calves, but it doesn;t work that way. Ma Nature abhors extremes but by the same token she doesn;t do everything on averages either.

dun

 

[KNERSIE]

It is really interesting that everybody just assumes that cows need to be small to efficiently produce on a forage based diet. I agree that its unlikely that a frame 8 or 9 racehorse type and milking like a holstein is going to do it, but its equally unlikely that a frame 0 or 1 dink is going to produce enough merchantable product.

Off course there will be the exceptions to the rule, but generally moderation in everything holds the key for sustainable grassbased production.

I have frame 3 cows that does this briliantly and also have frame 3 cows that struggle to keep condition while raising a good calf. The same goes for frame 6 cattle. From my experience under MY CONDITIONS smaller than a frame 3 simply hasn't got enough post weaning growth and taller than a frame 6 cannot endure the droughts well enough and cannot compete with the moderate cows when comparing weight of calf weaned vs weight of dam.

Within the frame 3-6 range anyone can find cows that will suit his environment for forage based production, if that was his goal and a feasible option

 

[Brandonm2]

Am I missing something? Are there REALLY that many beef herds, where the cows are being fed GRAIN - other than the hobby farmer with 5-10 head of cows? I don't care what the cost of corn is - grain is way too expensive to feed to cows. If anyone has cows that will not perform on grass and hay, they obviously have the wrong kind of cows for the environment they are in.
I couldn't feed my cows grain if I wanted to - first couldn't afford it, second have no way - physically - to do it.

Now, I do commit the mortal sin of feeding my replacements from weaning thru the winter. But, in a situation where you supplement your cattle about 6 months of the year, it sometimes is economical to supplement hay with grain - some years. For me, my heifers are exposed to the brutal "elements" of our winters and I'm "expected" to have them in good condition if I'm going to sell breeding/show stock.
Not that I need an excuse for how I handle heifers, just pointing out that in some situations, grain is economical if the price is there for your end product.

A lot of people in the South DO supplement their cows thru much of the winter. It rains so much here that getting hay in unrained on can be difficult AND if it is stored outside than often even fed in unlimited quantities it will not meet a cow's nutritional needs. Building barns would help most people as would better forage management. I am in the all hay and forage camp myself and don't even have any bins here ; BUT when cows start dropping condition scores I have gone out and added a couple of tons of corn to the february ration before.

 

[KNERSIE]

I don't think anybody denies the role grain or any other supplement can play in a drought or as an emergency procedure. I too have creep fed calves in a drought before, but its not my normal practice.

There would be no point in allowing the cows to nearly starve just for the sake of saying I don't supplement!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

A lot of people in the South DO supplement their cows thru much of the winter. It rains so much here that getting hay in unrained on can be difficult AND if it is stored outside than often even fed in unlimited quantities it will not meet a cow's nutritional needs. Building barns would help most people as would better forage management. I am in the all hay and forage camp myself and don't even have any bins here ; BUT when cows start dropping condition scores I have gone out and added a couple of tons of corn to the february ration before.

Having experienced the "DAM-p" season in the South, I was wondering if you have ever made "Haylege" out of your wet hay and 'plastic wrapped' it (4-6 mils thick) to prevent spoilage and mold? It retains enough moisture and nutients for adequate daily gains, and eliminates almost ALL spoilage and mold. And you don't have to worry about not being able to 'dry' out your fresh-cut hay if it gets rained-on. By wrapping it with adequate poly-wrap, you can store it outside and not have any storage facilities to pay for or build. Do a "SEARCH" under 'Haylege'.

DOC HARRIS

 

[IL Rancher]

Balage is starting to gain some traction around here. More for the dairy herds mind you but some parts of the year it can be very hard to get your hay dry enough to bale.. We are feeding some this winter that we just bought and brought in.. I hate the waste of the plastic film but it isn't bad..

If we were to actuayl buy equipment I would probably do haylage in which you put it bunker silos to ensile.. Fed some of that this winter too and the cattle did very well on it but we only did a smal batch of it.. That stuff works better if you are using a TMR that is not a vertical mixer than the Baleage works.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

As an addendum to this current thread, here is another report concerning ethanol, which could be an interesting senario by which a breeder can plan ahead several years in the future and improve the quality of his herd genetics, thereby being able to capitalize on the expected market increases.

DOC HARRIS


Initial Ethanol Push Challenges Beef Market

Like it or not, ethanol is coming, and beef producers must be prepared to weather the transitional phase and capitalize on the potentials in the future, said two speakers at the Southwest Beef Symposium in Amarillo, Texas.

"The short run is going to be tough, but in the long run, things will work out," said Steve Amosson, Texas Cooperative Extension economist.

Feed prices are being driven up by predictions of 3 billion gallons (gal.) of ethanol production capacity coming on line in the next year. Ethanol would require almost an 8-million-acre increase in corn acreage, which equates to an additional 1.1 billion bushels (bu.) of corn, Amosson said.

"I feel the corn prices will range from $3 to $4.25 per bushel on the board for the next couple of years, and the differential between corn and sorghum will narrow," he said.

Competition for acreage will increase, forcing other feed sources and crop prices higher.

In the short run, fed cattle prices will remain relatively unchanged, and feeder cattle and calf prices may continue to soften, Amosson said. A rule of thumb, he said, is calf prices will drop $1.50 per hundredweight (cwt.) for every 10¢ rise in corn prices.

This is going to reduce the predicted expansion phase of the cattle cycle, he said. But in three to four years, that reduction will have cattle producers seeing record prices.

"Cattlemen also have a potential to gain market share relative to the swine and poultry industries because cattle can be fed the distillers' grain byproducts, where the other industries can't," Amosson said. "We just have to learn to feed those DDGs (dried distillers' grains)."

Jim MacDonald, Texas Agricultural Experiment Station beef cattle nutritionist, agreed, saying, "You don't have to like it, but you had better learn how to feed it."

And that, MacDonald said, is his job — helping cattle producers learn how to feed the byproduct.

While ethanol had its share of unfriendly comments during the two-day symposium, MacDonald said, "We're going to get there, we just have to manage the transition.

"A lot of concern has come with ethanol in this area," he said. "But we are better off with the plants here than not because we're not the only game in town."

DDGs from the Midwest are being shipped into the export market, he said. So the fact that the Panhandle will produce 600 million gal. of ethanol per year, resulting in 1.5 million tons of distillers' grains, will help keep prices reasonable.

When corn is processed for ethanol, it breaks down to one-third ethanol, one-third carbon dioxide and one-third byproduct, or distillers' grain, MacDonald said. These distillers' grains still have all the nutrient profile of corn, only the starch has been removed, he said. It has 40%-45% fiber and 25%-30% crude protein (CP).

"It's going to be a cheaper protein source in the future, and if used as a forage supplement, it can be used for both protein and energy supplementation," MacDonald said.

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't mean to be the board skeptic; but I don't see how anything really changes if it is found out that distiller's grain DOES decrease beef quality grade??? That is NOT going to stop the ethanol plants from producing ethanol. At least in theory, the industry as a whole still won't be able to buy sufficient Grade 2 yellow corn too finish all of our cattle without using the distillers grain. Perhaps in the future we will divide the feedlot calves into two groups:

1) the earlier maturing, high Quality grade calves we are feeding a traditional corn and soybean meal ration for the restaraunt trade sold on a quality grade pay grid AND

2) the continental influence later maturing cattle we are feeding the distiller's grain based feed for the select grade commodity beef trade for a yield grade pay scale

The first group will cost more because they are probably fatter and their feed cost us a lot more; but hopefully that will even out because of the select/choice price spread. IF not, then we may be the last generation of Americans to eat Choice grade beef (or at least Choice as USDA currently defines it).

 

[OK Jeanne]

. IF not, then we may be the last generation of Americans to eat Choice grade beef (or at least Choice as USDA currently defines it).

Or maybe, just maybe, food may become "local" once
again? It could happen some forecasts say---right along
with the depletion of fossil fuel inputs of industrialized
agriculture. When you start thinking of the ripple effects
of such depletion, it's hard to find a stopping place
in your mind.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As far as reducing the size of our cows - I think Dun & KNERSIE
are correct. And most breeds are at that point now. I rarely see a cow of any breed over a 6.5 - some 7's but no 8-10 like we used to have. And they are 6.5 because of their large body size - not long legs. Most run between 4-6 - and I think that's where they need to be. You always need seedstock producing slightly larger than average for the producer who needs a growthier calf.
And the packers still discount under 600# carcasses.
And Doc - you are right. I don't know about the damp weather down south, but in NY it is a rare that you have sunshine in 3 days in a row. I say that, and the sun just peaked out - yahoo! It is near impossible to put up first cutting with dry hay. We've been putting up baleage for nearly 20 years. Try to put up dry bales if we get any 2nd cutting.
And I understand supplimenting cows with "whatever" it takes if unusual conditions happen. We just don't have the ability to if we wanted to. There are no range cubes out here. Most people don't even know what they are.

 

[Brandonm2]

. IF not, then we may be the last generation of Americans to eat Choice grade beef (or at least Choice as USDA currently defines it).

Or maybe, just maybe, food may become "local" once
again? It could happen some forecasts say---right along
with the depletion of fossil fuel inputs of industrialized
agriculture. When you start thinking of the ripple effects
of such depletion, it's hard to find a stopping place
in your mind.

We are not going to ever see the freight trains stop running. The govt will prevent us from using corn to feed livestock at all before we run out of fuel to keep the transportation infrastructure moving. And even IF that "doomsday" scenario did occur in a future century, all people will care about is getting some beef (or dog or rat) to go with their ration of oats and carrots. Whether it grades Choice, Select, or Canner won't be much of a concern.

 

[Shorthornguy]

We finish FS 5-6 on grass. Rotational grazing and improved pastures. In season we put in millet,sorghum and brome and save that for winter grazing. We use our high quality hay for finishing.
:lol: As I mentioned in another post.....I am a lazy farmer and believe in letting the cows do the work.

 

[KMacGinley]

OK-Jeanne, God bless you, I think you are right.

With 8 million more acres of corn, I see a huge opportunity, for feeding millions of cows on stalks, while being supplemented with gluten or DDGs. Add a good calcium supplement to offset the high phosphorous in the DDGs and you got a ration for wintering cows. Feeding out cattle may happen the same way? Don't know, haven't tried it. I do know that I am getting good gains with hay and gluten 100% in a ration now for feeder calves.

 

[Schnurrbart]

Maybe I should post another topic, but if cattle must be able to gain on grass alone what are the best breeds out there in your opinion? Tarentaise? Aubrac? Galloway? BreedX?


I currently have longhorns and galloways. I know I know a real eclectic group there.

I don't have enough numbers to really be affected to the point of bankruptcy with the price of corn. My Tarentaise are on grass and hay all year long. I usually buy about 6 tons of corn gluten and soyhull pellets in a 14% mix a year and only feed when the temp drops very low and some right after calving to give a little boost and feel good to the mommas. When I wean, I will feed the calves some but not a lot along with good quality hay. They do great. My pastures are about 50% fescue (meaning some paddocks are 100% fescue) and the other 50% is a good multi-grass mix with no tall fescue. I rotate every few days. Seems to work good with the cows staying in good condition year 'round. Knock on wood.

 

[mnmtranching]

The trouble is. We cow calf people with the land will get by just fine with grazing and hay. The problem is selling the feeder calves.
The price of corn has a direct impact on what the buyers will pay us for our calves. Already has, have you noticed whats happened to the price of calves since mid Sept?

 

[Brandonm2]

As far as reducing the size of our cows - I think Dun & KNERSIE
are correct. And most breeds are at that point now. I rarely see a cow of any breed over a 6.5 - some 7's but no 8-10 like we used to have. And they are 6.5 because of their large body size - not long legs. Most run between 4-6 - and I think that's where they need to be.

I agree. I think the cow/calf sector would be better off from strictly a production standpoint with a smaller cow size. 2s and 3s being more efficient etc; but as long as we have to deal with the feedlots and the packer and they control price I think we are stuck raising a 4-6 frame mama cow. Maybe the grass fed guys can operate with 2s and 3s; but in the commodity beef business USDA smalls (frame 3 and below) take too great a dock to possibly be worth it.

 

[Brandonm2]

The trouble is. We cow calf people with the land will get by just fine with grazing and hay. The problem is selling the feeder calves.
The price of corn has a direct impact on what the buyers will pay us for our calves. Already has, have you noticed whats happened to the price of calves since mid Sept?

Exactly, most ranches COULD plant a field of corn if we had to too supplement cows and precondition calves(that probably will pay at $4 a bushel) and with winter annuals, stockpiling grass, better hay etc we could wean the cow herd off of grain supplements.....but where the ethanol think hits is in what the feedlots are having too pay to take those calves from 600 lbs to 1100 lbs. All that increase in feed costs IS coming directly out of feeder calf price.

I am not in the beef industry brain trust which makes all the decisions; but I think we need to go back too backgrounding and stockering calves to 750++ lbs before any calf goes to the feedlot. I also think a smaller framed earlier maturing kind of calf (frame 3-5) that goes into the feedlot and finishes quickly (less than 150 days) SHOULD be the gold standard of the business now. Either that or jettison the quality grade. Weaning calves straight to the feedlot then feeding them for 200+++ days trying to hit CAB just isn't going too pay unless you got the calf for nothing.

 

[KMacGinley]

Question: What if the federal government, since it caused this problem through short sighted subsidies closed the border to imported cattle from anywhere to fix this problem. Then fed prices would move up enough to make $4.00 corn economically viable and the cost would be passed on to the consumer where it should be. I don't think that American cattlemen should allow ourselves to be left holding the bag as usual.

 

[MikeC]

Question: What if the federal government, since it caused this problem through short sighted subsidies closed the border to imported cattle from anywhere to fix this problem. Then fed prices would move up enough to make $4.00 corn economically viable and the cost would be passed on to the consumer where it should be. I don't think that American cattlemen should allow ourselves to be left holding the bag as usual.

Two edged sword. If beef gets too expensive relative to other protein sources, the consumer won't pay it.

Just try cutting of imports to the world's largest beef importer, the U.S., and the election campaign donations from the big corps will shrivel to a trickle. :lol: