Do red hides get discounted?

[Lee VanRoss]

Nothing stays the same including the Tide of Opinion. I would guess CT Today to be the big kid on the block when it comes to cattle forums
and general conversation.. It goes without saying there is a divergence of opinion on most topic with politics and cattle genetics (color especially)
being at the top in intensity. [Marie will have her thumb on this in the morning!] It is only natural for one to more or less editorialize a
particular point of view. One of those tides of opinion you are seeing across the industry is the influx of Corriente influence in the smaller
herds at the national level. If you doubt the veracity of my words go back on CT Today 5 or 10 years and see how often Corrientes are
brought up and compare it to today. I have no intentions of contributing to the tumult of the why or why not at this juncture....

Another opinion tide, if you will, is the blackening of our national beef herd which will in the long run be detrimental to the health of the industry.
The more the lack of logic for such a move is revealed to the consuming public the more venomous the attacks will become from those who have
their fortunes invested in the farce. The whole undeniable premise that black hair on a cow makes the meat taste better and thus worth more
because of that black hair defines the undeniable lack of logic of the movement. That more and more consumers are becoming aware of this
will become undeniable as our cattle numbers shrink and the availability of product decreases in the market. Once this occurs it will catch the
attention of the various legislative bodies or heaven forbid the large grocery chains. No doubt there will be those who will come on here with
pious testimony, charts, video's and cursing to convince us that Black Cattle are as the holy grail to the industry. I shall leave you with just
one thought or question. Are your black cattle so much better than any other color that you would have your best black (by your own
standards) undergo a taste and identification of hair color from that taste on national television?
That in a nutshell is what is being sold to us and the whole world is watching the circus.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

I

I agree when you pull the hide off them its all red meat . I'm an old Shorthorn man but my dad and I couldn't sell a bull except to another shorthorn breeder . I guarantee you we had some of the best cows in NE Alabama and maybe the whole state . I said I'd never own a black angus cow . We finally sold the entire herd when my dad's health declined and I started coaching and raising a family . As I retired I went to several sales and guess what I learned ?

I like Shorthorns. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't have had Gerts or Beefmasters. Another good example: You won't get much for a Shorthorn calf from your Shorthorn cow, but there are calves you can get out her that ARE more valuable.

 

[Travlr]

Jeezus... I think IQs are suddenly dropping around here. Maybe it's because I'm watching Idiocracy... but it's a little scary.

 

[libertygarden]

@Lee VanRoss I see what you did there to taint the thread with the corriente theme. Well done Sir. .......

Maybe 20 years back people didn't really care if the meat they bought was from angus, Hereford, mix breed, etc... because just like today they couldn't tell the difference. This reminds me of the new craze for single malt whisky among the young generation. I've drunk a bathtub of cutty sark and old parr and don't go around talking like I'm an expert in mix blends.

 

[ClintM]

Hey guys. I'm new to the site but would love to hear everybody's opinion. I am newer to the cattle business in that I'm only in my third year. I am currently running a Hereford bull on primarily charolais/angus cross cows. I will be getting a new bull next year and I'm looking at either black or red angus. I like the idea of the FCCP tags for the red angus, but wasn't sure if they actually bring a premium, or if the red hides gets discounted. I have also considered starting to replace my cull cows with a Hereford based cow herd to start selling red baldys, or buy Hereford-Santa Gertrudis cross cows. Any and all Info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

We run Red Brangus and have not had an issue. We sell mostly private, but haven't done bad at sale barn either. I think it depends on health/appearance as well. At Emory sale barn I've watched bidding war get high quick on nice red mommas and bred heifers.

 

[coachg]

My guess is bidders had plenty of toilet paper so cattle with papers weren't in demand.

That's a good one Butch . Just trying to say those weren't junk calves . No way they should have brought 50 cents less than the same type black calves . We learned a lesson that day . Back to my original post : find out what brings the best prices and go with that if you want to make a little money at this . In Louisiana and Texas you may need a little ear . Again , welcome to the forum and you may notice everyone on here doesn't always agree and a guy can get poked fun at if the right ones wake up from their naps .

 

[Davemk]

Jeezus... I think IQs are suddenly dropping around here. Maybe it's because I'm watching Idiocracy... but it's a little scary.

Just remember Idiocracy is not a movie, it's a documentary. That's where I'm at with todays society.

 

[BFE]

Not selling cars, selling calves.

I've had SH, I've had Herfs. Took a beating on both. That is a fact.

I'm not a breed pimp, but black brings more nearly everywhere. Do I think that's fair, no. That's the reality of most markets. All the want to's in the world won't change it.

Straight Red Angus do nearly as good here, they're hot right now. Can't speak for everywhere, but that's the move I'd make if I were making one.

 

[dave_shelby]

I think I am moving to red Angus. It might just be the specific cows I have but they seem to do better in heat with fescue and sun. Trouble is finding reasonably priced cows here in Virginia.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

I think I am moving to red Angus. It might just be the specific cows I have but they seem to do better in heat with fescue and sun. Trouble is finding reasonably priced cows here in Virginia.

They are great cattle. They are Angus. Red Brangus are even better down here like Brangus do better than black Angus. The USDA just released a directive saying they will approve a certified Angus program allowing red angus beef to be sold as certified Angus. All a program has to do, is draw up new specs outlining how proof is to be determined, and they will amend the rules of that certified angus program, and release new guidelines to their inspectors. Many certified angus programs already accept red angus, but it has to be registered red angus, and registration papers have to accompany the animal through the slaughter process. Not many people raise registered cattle just to be slaughtered , though. And as a feedlot buyer, you usually don't go to registered sales to get up a truckload to send to the feedlots. They would have to send the papers for each animal with the contract trucker who hauls them, and have some way to identify which papers belong to which steer. and the feedlot would have to keep up with all of this for the months they feed them, through the shipping process, and after they get to the processors. I don't know how they can come up with guidelines for certifying a steer is red angus, though, except with developing a quick DNA analysis. You dang sure couldn't by just amending the rules to say they have to be either 50% black or 50% red, plus the REA, marbling etc. Hell, you could just sell Herefords as certified Angus! Reckon Limousine, Simmental etc, would start trying ti turn their cattle back red?!!! I guess the poor ole Charolais would STILL be left out.

We rope with a guy who is a district manager for Ingles. I think he said he has 6 stores. He said that prior to the Biden recession these last 2 years, certified Angus made up about 80% of their beef purchase. just "beef made up 15%, and "certified grass fed" made up about 5%. With this recession and rising inflation, he said now 40% of their beef is labeled "beef" and 40% is certified Angus. The rest is grass-fed and here lately, Waygu. Depending on the cut, certified Angus is $2-$3 a pound more. which is why packers pay more for it, thus feedlots pay more for it, thus buyers pay more for calves that potentially could achieve certified Angus qualification.

I know that there are some idiots on here that think if the certified Angus programs were gone, that they will then be paid CAB premiums for their other color calves. No, they will just lose the premium for their black calves, costing themselves lost revenue. .One looney tunes on here said they should file a class action lawsuit against AAA, saying that the Certified Angus programs have caused other breeds to lose genetic diversity! Another one (that tries to hide his ignorance by using "fancy" language to try to fool people into thinking he is knowledgeable), is suggesting Congressional Legislation to force buyers to pay CAB premiums for non-black cattle!! Think about how stupid that sounds.

 

[randyalexander]

Ya'll have certainly gave some good and entertaining perspectives! I knew that if we decided to go with a black bull in the future that the calves would do well because the cows were all bred to a Brangus bull when we bought them. All of the calves were either black or charcoal colored with black noses and they sold very well. But my wife loves Hereford/red cattle so we thought we would try the Hereford bull out and see how we did, and her love for red is why we are considering a red angus bull in the future. So far I have had no complaints on my Hereford influenced calves as all of ours were in the top 50% of the price range for their weight range in the week that they sold, if not in the top 25%.

My next question is, we have also considered trying to sell yearling heifers off the place or at replacement female sales. For that do certain breeds tend to sell better as replacement heifers? I'm originally from Oklahoma and I grew up around Black baldy cows, so my first instinct is to want to go that direction. But I hear mixed opinions on whether or not I need some ear in my cattle being this far south. Right now my cows have less than 20% brahman influence to none.

Again thanks for all the input and the warm welcomes!

 

[RDFF]

I agree when you pull the hide off them its all red meat . I'm an old Shorthorn man but my dad and I couldn't sell a bull except to another shorthorn breeder . I guarantee you we had some of the best cows in NE Alabama and maybe the whole state . I said I'd never own a black angus cow . We finally sold the entire herd when my dad's health declined and I started coaching and raising a family . As I retired I went to several sales and guess what I learned ?

That there's more money to be made retired than by raising cattle?

 

[RDFF]

We run Red Brangus and have not had an issue. We sell mostly private, but haven't done bad at sale barn either. I think it depends on health/appearance as well. At Emory sale barn I've watched bidding war get high quick on nice red mommas and bred heifers.

Good cattle will always bring the money... but on average overall, the buyers will pay a little more for ones with black hides.

 

[RDFF]

Good cattle will always bring the money... but on average overall, the buyers will pay a little more for ones with black hides.

And every time we say that, we reinforce that notion further, making it even more true!

 

[Warren Allison]

And every time we say that, we reinforce that notion further, making it even more true!

No, what anyone on here thinks or says either way, has zero impact. The fact that the stores sell certified angus beef for $2-$3/lb more than "beef", makes the packers charge them more, which makes the feedlots charge the packers more, which makes buyers pay more for some black calves that may attain certified angus status.

 

[Travlr]

They are great cattle. They are Angus. Red Brangus are even better down here like Brangus do better than black Angus. The USDA just released a directive saying they will approve a certified Angus program allowing red angus beef to be sold as certified Angus. All a program has to do, is draw up new specs outlining how proof is to be determined, and they will amend the rules of that certified angus program, and release new guidelines to their inspectors. Many certified angus programs already accept red angus, but it has to be registered red angus, and registration papers have to accompany the animal through the slaughter process. Not many people raise registered cattle just to be slaughtered , though. And as a feedlot buyer, you usually don't go to registered sales to get up a truckload to send to the feedlots. They would have to send the papers for each animal with the contract trucker who hauls them, and have some way to identify which papers belong to which steer. and the feedlot would have to keep up with all of this for the months they feed them, through the shipping process, and after they get to the processors. I don't know how they can come up with guidelines for certifying a steer is red angus, though, except with developing a quick DNA analysis. You dang sure couldn't by just amending the rules to say they have to be either 50% black or 50% red, plus the REA, marbling etc. Hell, you could just sell Herefords as certified Angus! Reckon Limousine, Simmental etc, would start trying ti turn their cattle back red?!!! I guess the poor ole Charolais would STILL be left out.

We rope with a guy who is a district manager for Ingles. I think he said he has 6 stores. He said that prior to the Biden recession these last 2 years, certified Angus made up about 80% of their beef purchase. just "beef made up 15%, and "certified grass fed" made up about 5%. With this recession and rising inflation, he said now 40% of their beef is labeled "beef" and 40% is certified Angus. The rest is grass-fed and here lately, Waygu. Depending on the cut, certified Angus is $2-$3 a pound more. which is why packers pay more for it, thus feedlots pay more for it, thus buyers pay more for calves that potentially could achieve certified Angus qualification.

I know that there are some idiots on here that think if the certified Angus programs were gone, that they will then be paid CAB premiums for their other color calves. No, they will just lose the premium for their black calves, costing themselves lost revenue. .One looney tunes on here said they should file a class action lawsuit against AAA, saying that the Certified Angus programs have caused other breeds to lose genetic diversity! Another one (that tries to hide his ignorance by using "fancy" language to try to fool people into thinking he is knowledgeable), is suggesting Congressional Legislation to force buyers to pay CAB premiums for non-black cattle!! Think about how stupid that sounds.

So you are a "sock puppet" and not just a shill. I thought your writing style looked familiar. How many sock puppets do you think will be necessary to quiet the people outing CAB for being a bad idea?

 

[Travlr]

My next question is, we have also considered trying to sell yearling heifers off the place or at replacement female sales. For that do certain breeds tend to sell better as replacement heifers? I'm originally from Oklahoma and I grew up around Black baldy cows, so my first instinct is to want to go that direction. But I hear mixed opinions on whether or not I need some ear in my cattle being this far south. Right now my cows have less than 20% brahman influence to none.

I raised replacements in South Dakota... both red and black... and of course the red animals were discounted compared to the black. Same quality animals, same weights, same, same, same, in every way other than color. Not a lot of difference in pricing, but consistent and easy to see.

At my place in Arkansas I was dealing a lot of animals because I was working the sale barns, helping vets. If you have half brahman cows with a lot of skin they don't do very well in northern Arkansas. I saw a really nice full blood Brahman bull freeze to death one winter. But far enough south a lot of people like them. The Santa Gertrudis and beefmasters did fine. Personally I really like half bloods. Probably the fanciest calf I ever had was a Limo cross and she was gorgeous and a great mother. But again, too much skin was a problem and that's hard to control in the first generation.

I'd recommend a homozygous black brahmousin bull to put the meat on your calves, for the hybrid vigor benefits, and to make replacements that sell well.

 

[RDFF]

No, what anyone on here thinks or says either way, has zero impact. The fact that the stores sell certified angus beef for $2-$3/lb more than "beef", makes the packers charge them more, which makes the feedlots charge the packers more, which makes buyers pay more for some black calves that may attain certified angus status.

Warren,

Yeah, I wasn't meaning necessarily saying it on CT will make it even more true... I meant just in general, in conversations with anyone about this topic.

But even in regard to a conversation on CT... if enough of us on here voice an opinion... and it tends then to appear to be a majority-supported opinion (which it has seemed to be here in this thread)... that "black hided cattle will bring more money"............ then those reading those words ARE weighing that conversation, and that "opinion" into their purchasing options. Why, after all, is it even a topic of conversation otherwise? So when I or someone else that took an interest in that topic and conversation goes to the barn to buy some feeders, which ones will they be more likely to bid more strongly on? Some may not let the conversation influence them, because they have their own strong opinions and biases... or they like to "go against the tide".... but if enough conversations in the industry continue to support that "black hided theory", it IS eventually going to have an influence broadly and industry-wide (rather than on EVERY SINGLE individual in the industry), and eventually even on those who otherwise are pretty steadfast in their desire to believe otherwise.

So, if you like colored cattle better, start conversations as often as possible suggesting that the coloreds are the ones that bring the premium... and if that mantra takes in the broad scale industry-wide, it too will have its influence!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well, I am a PB Simmental breeder. I raise reds and blacks. In the PB market right now, red is HOT - in breeding stock. For bulls, most buyers want a black bull - if they sell their offspring at a sale barn. NONE of my calves go to a sale barn. I sell some steers freezer trade (they can be pink and polka dotted if they taste good) and I sell direct to a feedlot buyer. He doesn't care what color they are, because he smiles and says he makes money on my steers. Color does not affect quality - IF - you make your own market. If you have to sell your offspring at a sale barn, then just buy yourself a nice homozygous black Simmental bull. All your offspring will be black, heavy muscled and grow. My black steers that are finished out qualify for CAB program. The program is for black hided cattle - not "Angus" cattle. It was designed to make a market for their Angus bulls.

 

[Travlr]

Warren,

Yeah, I wasn't meaning necessarily saying it on CT will make it even more true... I meant just in general, in conversations with anyone about this topic.

But even in regard to a conversation on CT... if enough of us on here voice an opinion... and it tends then to appear to be a majority-supported opinion (which it has seemed to be here in this thread)... that "black hided cattle will bring more money"............ then those reading those words ARE weighing that conversation, and that "opinion" into their purchasing options. Why, after all, is it even a topic of conversation otherwise? So when I or someone else that took an interest in that topic and conversation goes to the barn to buy some feeders, which ones will they be more likely to bid more strongly on? Some may not let the conversation influence them, because they have their own strong opinions and biases... or they like to "go against the tide".... but if enough conversations in the industry continue to support that "black hided theory", it IS eventually going to have an influence broadly and industry-wide (rather than on EVERY SINGLE individual in the industry), and eventually even on those who otherwise are pretty steadfast in their desire to believe otherwise.

So, if you like colored cattle better, start conversations as often as possible suggesting that the coloreds are the ones that bring the premium... and if that mantra takes in the broad scale industry-wide, it too will have its influence!

That's exactly correct. I'm entirely against the CAB marketing scheme... but I have to admit it's working brilliantly and driving prices at all levels in favor of black hides.
And I've never had any issues with black angus until their organization started shoving them down our collective throats. Right away I could see where it was all leading, including the genetic issues. Of course I didn't know the specific genetic anomalies but I haven't been surprised.
One thing I didn't anticipate was that Simmental and Limousin and others would pollute their gene pool with angus blood to compete, but who knows, it may have invigorated stagnant lines in the various breeds. At some point we'll see.
And as a result of other breeds developing black hair the angus crowd are scrambling to develop a way to weed those cattle out at the sale barn. They don't care about the industry... or the people involved trying to feed their families... just their short term thickness-of-their-wallet interests.

But yeah... black hides bring more. Sad but true. It's a lot like so many great businesses that make a big name for themselves by legitimate competition and once they are on top the quality gets diluted and no longer applies... but they'll milk it for all it's worth until people wise up and it begins to stink.