creep feeding????

[norriscathy]

If the forage is poor enough that you're worried about the cows and even with creep they're being sucked down, it's time to cull a lot deeper. Thinning theherd is proably the hardest part of drought, but it's also the surest way of not permanently damaging the pastures. Unless you have plenty of free hay, cut back below were you really want to and rebuild after normal conditions return.

dun

Trying for a "planned liquidation" instead of a crash bail out. Looks like this thing is going to last at least another year. No rain in January, ponds still almost dry and watering out of the well. Without January or February rains ground mositure will be zilch this summer! Spring calving herd is now down to 34 cows from 110. Trying to get a little more age on the fall calves before weaning then. Will probably sell calves in March instead of May. Will hold fall herd until April so they can be verified bred and then reduce the fall herd to less than 50 cows. From 225 cows last year plus replacement heifers to around 80 this year with no replacements. 80 cows on almost 600 acres; hope they can make it and still give us enough of a herd to come back with! Don't know what else we can do!!!!!!!!

 

[Bez!]

Seems creep decision has already been made by a few here - but:

All things being equal - grass, genetics and herd health - creep will - in my mind never pay.

Folks talk about the cost of creep vs the sale price. But they never seem to add in the other costs - creep feeder, feeder maintenance over time, delivery or "go to get it cost" and the work required to fill the feeder - plus, plus, etc, etc.

In the end if you cull to the point it hurts, breed carefully and toss anything that does not make grade - then creep will become redundant.

Ever wonder why those folks who actually raise cattle for a living in the wide open spaces never do it?

Answer - in the end it does not pay.

If you are raising beef in bulk numbers to sell it does not pay - if you are raising seed stock to sell - in my opinion it throws all the weaning and gain weights into the worthless category. I do not want to purchase seed stock that has been creeped to get the numbers looking good. I want them in their working clothes.

If you cannot raise a good calf on Mom and grass then you are either over stocked, have a poor breeding plan or have a bunch of animals that need to go down the road. I also do not want them for my herd.

Feeding from a sack - at any stage - unless feed availability due to drought is an issue - is a losers game.

Bez!

 

[rk]

You're right, it is usually evaluated on a feed cost/lb of gain, without considering other expenses. You have a strong opinion...what figure would you say those other expenses (feeder, labor, etc.) amount to?

 

[ronr]

Bez...The only time I carry a bag is in the spring to get them started. I start them early in the calving pasture (Feb, March) when there is no grass. At that age they go through very little creep. Mama's milk is better. Once the grass starts growing I don't give them any creep. Mid-July in this part of the world the cool-season grassed are done. That is when I'll buy it in 3 ton batches or make it myself.

I found that the little creep you give them early spring makes it easier bringing them back later in the year.

When I wean I pull the creep feeder in the yard with the Calves until it is empty. Since I've been this (12yrs) method of weaning I've never lost a calf and rarely get a sick one.

Have you ever consider prorating the cost over time. You'll see your tripping over Dollars for Pennies.

Thanks for your imput!!

 

[novaman]

I'm struggling to see how creep feeding isn't profitable. I ran a few figures just to see what I could come up with. Correct me if I'm wrong somewhere. I'll use oats as an example. Corn is even cheaper per pound so I'm not using the lowest figure. Say your calves have a F/G of 10:1, which is a conservative estimate. A bushel of oats is normally 32-35 pounds per bushel. That means that every bushel of oats should put 3 pounds on the calf. A bushel of oats around here costs 1 dollar. That means spending 1 dollar will net you 3 pounds of beef which would approximately be worth $3.50-3.75. Sure these figures can vary quite a bit but that seems profitable to me.

As far as the cows supporting the calves and the creep feeder just substituting for genetics, I can't agree there either. For a calf to grow muscle they need protein. The cow has protein in their milk. That protein comes from the grass they eat. Therefore even if you had better genetics you need an X amount of grass to put on an X number of pounds on the calf. So to get bigger calves the cows either need to eat more grass or the calves can be supplemented. Of course culling and using no creep feed is an option since we are also in somewhat of a drought. However if I can maintain my herd numbers, grow nice-sized calves, and keep my pastures in decent condition by supplementing, I think I'll use the creep feed.

 

[msscamp]

That means spending 1 dollar will net you 3 pounds of beef which would approximately be worth $3.50-3.75. Sure these figures can vary quite a bit but that seems profitable to me.

I'm no expert on this, but even I can see a flaw in your math. What about the gas, time spent, wear and tear, and maintenance costs on your pickup running to town to get the oats assuming you don't raise them? Costs spent if you did raise them and fed as opposed to selling them? Plus the time spent feeding the oats and maintaining the feeder? Assuming minimum wage (which I believe is what most farmers and ranchers work at, maybe less) and 15 minutes feeding time (which is approximately what it takes me to load the feed, carry it to my bucket calves and feed them once a day) each day thats 1.31/per feeding added to your above figures. To just factor in the cost of the feed doesn't give you a realistic picture of the cost.

 

[novaman]

I can see your point there mss. I never figure time as a cost for me. I have my own grain in the bin. I figure my oats costs about what it's worth at the elevator so there isn't anything extra there. As for maintenance of creep feeders I really don't have any. The only costs that could be figured into it FOR ME would be the cost to fill the feeders and the wear & tear. I have 150 bushel creep feeders so I only fill them once, sometimes twice on a pasture with 45 calves. I guess in my mind that difference in cost is not enough to outweigh what I get out of the calves in the end. But you are right, there may be situations where going to town and picking up feed and all that other stuff wouldn't make it profitable. However I don't think it would be difficult to make it work. In my opinion some people are just too proud of their cattle to admit the creep would help their bottom line.

 

[msscamp]

Novaman, even though you are raising your own grain you can't raise it for free. You are still paying for the seed, fertilizer, time spent drilling and tilling the field, diesel for the tractor, breakdowns, etc. All of that has to be factored into the cost of creep-feeding since it is grain that you are raising. Time should be factored in as well, as it is time that could be spent doing other things that will contribute to your profit.

 

[novaman]

Well I guess that means everybody figures differently. I figure my grain is worth market value. My expense in raising the grain is no more than what I would make should I take it to market. Right now oats is one doller per bushel. But even if you wanted to say my expense were $1.50 per bushel I still come out on top. As far as my time, I haven't met a farmer or rancher around here that figures their time into anything. If I were to consider the amount of work I had to do for creep feeding as opposed to not creep feeding, about the only time I would save would be the time it takes to fill the creep feeders. I would do the farming part of it just the same. I do understand where you're coming from though, and I'm also seeing how everybody else views their time, expenses, etc.

 

[msscamp]

Well I guess that means everybody figures differently. I figure my grain is worth market value. My expense in raising the grain is no more than what I would make should I take it to market. Right now oats is one doller per bushel. But even if you wanted to say my expense were $1.50 per bushel I still come out on top. As far as my time, I haven't met a farmer or rancher around here that figures their time into anything. If I were to consider the amount of work I had to do for creep feeding as opposed to not creep feeding, about the only time I would save would be the time it takes to fill the creep feeders. I would do the farming part of it just the same. I do understand where you're coming from though, and I'm also seeing how everybody else views their time, expenses, etc.

If you don't figure the costs of producing the crop how can you tell if that crop was profitable? I've never known a farmer who DOESN'T figure his expenses as opposed to the dollars received for the crop - time being one of them.

 

[novaman]

I never said I don't figure the cost of producing the crop in. I said I figure the cost of the crop to be roughly market value. I average maybe 60 bushels per acre on oats. At 1 dollar per bushel it would have to cost me more than $60 per acre to have a crop that would lose me money, assuming i get my yield. Like I said I have figured at $1.50 per bushel at cost and I still believe I am ahead feeding it to the critters that net close to $4 per bushel of feed at the current market for beef. Now when the market for beef goes down I would have to reevaluate. As for the time, I would really like to hear how you can figure your time in. If I got paid per hour for my work I would be rich and yes it wouldn't be profitable.

 

[msscamp]

I never said I don't figure the cost of producing the crop in. I said I figure the cost of the crop to be roughly market value. I average maybe 60 bushels per acre on oats. At 1 dollar per bushel it would have to cost me more than $60 per acre to have a crop that would lose me money, assuming i get my yield. Like I said I have figured at $1.50 per bushel at cost and I still believe I am ahead feeding it to the critters that net close to $4 per bushel of feed at the current market for beef. Now when the market for beef goes down I would have to reevaluate. As for the time, I would really like to hear how you can figure your time in. If I got paid per hour for my work I would be rich and yes it wouldn't be profitable.

I figure my time at minimum wage, as that is what I'm guaranteed to make if I were working off the farm - ranch work would be a little higher as I have more experience in it - but either way Wyoming doesn't pay a whole lot more than minumum wage for farm or ranch work, $1000 a month is about what you're going to get. I would say look around and see what you can make in your area doing what you are doing and that is how you would figure your time.

 

[bullred]

The only labor cost Novaman should have to consider is the incremental difference between creep feeding, and not creep feeding those oats. As creep feeding is not necessarily a very labor intensive process, I think this differential cost would be minimal.

When he figures the cost of his oats at market costs he's already taking into account the cost of labor for growing them. Whether or not it's worth Novaman's time to grow oats is a seperate issue from what the cost of his creep feed is. The oats cost him $1.00/bushel + associated expenses of feeding it - associated expenses of selling it at market.

 

[rk]

Seems like everyone figures expenses differently. I believe a
good commercial creep will also pay, without the questions about the value of a grain crop. Good creep should give 6:1 or better, if you prevent overconsumption. With the current calf prices, it sure seems like creep pays.

 

[lakading]

We put the feeders out in '05 for the first time in a while. Our feed cost was $0.05/lb and conversion was just a hair over 6:1. Made out pretty darn good this past year. Corn was cheap and calf prices were up. IMO you just have to do what the market is telling you is the most profitable.

 

[dph]

I will tell you what is getting extremely popular here in the land of cheap grain. Purina Accuration. I am not saying it will work for everyone, (I know we are blessed having a cheap feed source, corn) but nearly everyone of our neighbors are now using it. It figures out to .173/pound, and purina claims to be able to show a 7:1 feed conversion on it during their trials. Kent has a similar product. And alot of guys are starting to believe it. We start mixing it at 400lbs/ton of feed, with balance being corn or ear corn. Then when you get them going and intake goes up, we up the mix to 600 pounds per ton. So lets say we are only getting a 10:1, we have $.35 in accuration and $.28 in grain per pound of feed (with $2 corn and rounding up) to begin with. Which leaves a .60/pound profit on 1.20 calves. .60 times 40 (ours will be on it for 2-2.5 months) times 100 = $2400, leaving plenty to buy fuel etc. And if a fellow takes 3 pounds off that feed conversion, it is really looking attractive.

The first of Aug, when we put the creep feeder out, there isn't a whole lot else going on, especially until the dew goes off, and my time isn't nearly as valuable as it would be during calving season.

What would cost me more is selling our corn at $2.

We don't do it to help support the cow, and we don't do it because our pasture needs the help. We do it, because we believe it makes "cents" for us. If it leaves a little more condition on the cow, and a little more grass in the pasture for winter grazing, that is a-okay with us. Since we aren't valuing our time at much, we won't value that at much either. Not to mention the ease with which they go to feed during that first week of weaning, already fimiliar with the feed and the feeder.

We get them up to around 530 pounds in mid October, after an avg of 180 days, then get them off the cow and into the lot for preconditioning. When you are raising in your own corn, you sure want to squeeze every last cent of value out of it, at the same time, we don't want to be open to too much risk, so we let someone else feed them out.

If we weren't raising our own corn, and if we lived somewhere completely different, I am sure we would have a different approach also. I sure like to hear from everyone on how they pencil things out. Really makes a fellow stop and think, and really adds a lot of value to the board.

 

[ronr]

Man this subject has legs.

dph. I'm just curious in that Purina Accuration. What does that product consist of?? I'm having a Nutritionist from Kent run me some creep rations right now. I've been buying the Complete but I know I can do it myself cheaper. I've yet to see the paper work yet. He was talking going with a 1/3 Ear or cracked Corn, 1/3 Corn Gluten, 1/3 Soybean Hulls. Throw in a little Dry or wet Molasses and a little Balancer (mineral product with Rumension).

I'm open for suggestion's....Thanks!

 

[lakading]

If this guy is having you give your calves Rumensin before they are 600 lbs......run.

 

[lakading]

The Accuration is fish meal based. It also has what Purina calls IM Technology (Intake Modifying Technology). Fancy name for limiter, so there is no need to put salt into your feeders. If I ever quit using the ration I'm using now, Accuration would be the ONLY other creep feed ration I would consider (again, because the corn is so cheap around here).

 

[mitchwi]

I believe there are 2 correct sides to this argument :shock:

Cattlemen like Bez! and Caustic say real cattlemen (only means of income ;-) don't creep, these are cattlemen usually selling in volume. Mind you I am not saying you are sacrificing quality for quantity. In their situation creep = not the answer.

Wannabee cattlemen (myself included) creep feed because it is economical for us of which we are trying to make up in pounds what we do not have in numbers of cattle.

Again, only my opinion. I will say I don't believe you can feed out of sack creep or for that matter pay for grinding/mixing/hauling, etc. But if you can grow your own crops (or a portion), and you have the means to grind/mix it is not a cost/labor intensive activity (on a small wannabee scale).

And yes, I figure the cost (for my creep) based on the market $ for that particular grain. If corn is marketing for $1.60/bu then I too figure that as cost, because that is $$(income) I am giving up to feed out.

How I figure out what I make per hour, now remember people I am an accountant by trade ;-) ...

keep track of hours for the year, divide that into my bottom line at year end. In some years I have paid to work hard and other years my hard work has paid, those are the best years to make money doing something you love!