Cow Size Question

[SRBeef]

...Kit Pharo says 1000 to 1100 pounds is the "right" size for grass based beef. Any thoughts on this?

I think 1000 lb may be a bit light for a regular Hereford cow, at least in my SW Wisconsin conditions.

If he is talking about steers, I agree that from my limited experience it seems like 1000-1100 may be a good weight to harvest grass/grazed corn stalk steers.

Jim

 

[ArmyDoc]

...Kit Pharo says 1000 to 1100 pounds is the "right" size for grass based beef. Any thoughts on this?

I think 1000 lb may be a bit light for a regular Hereford cow, at least in my SW Wisconsin conditions.

If he is talking about steers, I agree that from my limited experience it seems like 1000-1100 may be a good weight to harvest grass/grazed corn stalk steers.

Jim

ArmyDoc, I think that there is some variation in optimum cow size according to environment. I ranched for many years in what is possibly the harshest environment for cattle. I used cattle native to the area, which have developed over 2000 years of natural selection in the environment before being selected for commercial conformation. These cows average 1100 lbs adult weight, when i tried to raise some heavier F1's, I had to feed a subsidised ration as the F1 steers required a higher plane of nutrition than the environment provided. I am presently in England, where my employer runs a grass fed system with Angus and Hereford, both breeds weighing more in the 1300 range, lighter ones do well in the warmer weather, but seem to struggle to overwinter. Environment seems to dictate the efficient size according to forage quality and quantity, and climatic conditions.

[/quote]

I read somewhere that cattle raised in the hot/humid southeast will be smaller than cattle raise in the colder climates, even if they have the same genetics. I also had heard that smaller cattle had a harder time over wintering in the snow - which seems to mirror your experience also.

I'm in Georgia, which while hot & humid, has pretty good grazing, compared to more arid hot climates. Anyone with experience in hot & humid regions have any comments on the economics of 1000-1100 lb cattle vs heavier cattle?

 

[SRBeef]

About the over wintering comment and the inference that lighter cattle do not over winter outdoors as well as heavier cattle:

In my case that is absolutely not true. In Wisconsin we hit minus 30 degrees F ( = minus 34 degrees C) several mornings in January 2009. The 1200 lb cows came thru as well as the heavier 1500 lb cows. I had 600 lb calves that came through fine. In MN, the Dakotas and Canada there are even colder conditions with cattle successfully wintering outdoors.

There is much more to the matter of overwintering ability than weight. Breed choice and locally adapted cattle of successful local breeds to me are the key to success in extreme climates, either hot or cold. Not weight within that group. Assuming of course that they are all adequately nourished for whatever climate they are in. Jim

 

[Jogeephus]

I read somewhere that cattle raised in the hot/humid southeast will be smaller than cattle raise in the colder climates, even if they have the same genetics. I also had heard that smaller cattle had a harder time over wintering in the snow - which seems to mirror your experience also.

There is a law of nature that says this is true from an evolutionary standpoint. It is very evident in deer and can be easily observed between the Florida deer and say the Wisconcin deer but on a short term with man's interferance this law has little if any effect. Ie, we have relocated Wisconsin genetics into this area and they still maintain the larger torsos which enable them to stay warmer during the cold.

As for the southern cattle not doing well in the cold, I have spoken to a feedyard manager in Nebraska about this cause I've always been told our cattle did not do well in the colder climates too. He dispelled this and said he always fournd our cattle did well in the cold.

I'm in Georgia, which while hot & humid, has pretty good grazing, compared to more arid hot climates. Anyone with experience in hot & humid regions have any comments on the economics of 1000-1100 lb cattle vs heavier cattle?

I'm in the same area but I really can't say what size cattle I have since it depends on the time of the year. I'd say I'm in the middle of the road judging from other peoples cattle but I think this goes back to what Dun was saying.

Dun wrote

Is the cow a genetic 5 BCS that is a 7 or a genetic 7 that is a 5?
I'm more concerend with cow fertility then cow size.

Personally, I don't mind fluctuations in the score as long as they will rebreed. I want them to be easy fleshing on grass but not be so easy fleshing that they become too fat to breed. I sometimes wonder how much mine would weigh if I gave them a pampered diet.

I guess I make my culling decisions based on several factors with the fertility being number 1, the ability to bounce back and reflesh being two and size being three, temperament being fourth.

 

[ArmyDoc]

Thanks SRBeef & Jogeephus,

If there's anything I'm learning it's that there are a lot a myths in this business. It's good to here people's actual experience.

 

[Jogeephus]

Thanks SRBeef & Jogeephus,

If there's anything I'm learning it's that there are a lot a myths in this business. It's good to here people's actual experience.

I'd like to qualify everything that I have said by saying I'm not saying I am right. I am just saying this is what I do in my situation and it seems to be working good for me. I will also say that I have a lot of room for improvement and am always looking for ways to improve but I want to put net income over anything else. Heck, I don't even raise my favorite type of cattle because of this. I just raise what I was told to raise by my customers.

 

[cross_7]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/bee ... eed-muscle

 

[2/B or not 2/B]

I haven't been able to figure out how folks are successfully selling 700+ pound calves out of 1200 pound cows. I would love to do it if I could figure out how to do so without going broke at the feed mill. I also believe, on average, that high weaning weights equal high milk production equals a shorter productive cow life.

Can you explain that more, is it because they lose udder soundness or don't rebreed?

A related comment: it looks to me that in some areas, we are going from a wet early spring to a drier than normal late spring and maybe summer where forage may again be limited/below normal in July and August.

We rely on whatever grows between Feb - April/May to last us until the following year and we supplement with hay in the fall and winter. I'm about to cull a 1,600 lb cow that always looks fat, is low milking, and produces calves that are average to below average. Even though she's big and looks good, there's nothing efficient about her. It's hard to believe she could really be lower input than one of my 1,200 lb cows and her output isn't anything impressive.

ArmyDoc, I think that there is some variation in optimum cow size according to environment. I ranched for many years in what is possibly the harshest environment for cattle. I used cattle native to the area, which have developed over 2000 years of natural selection in the environment before being selected for commercial conformation. These cows average 1100 lbs adult weight, when i tried to raise some heavier F1's, I had to feed a subsidised ration as the F1 steers required a higher plane of nutrition than the environment provided... Environment seems to dictate the efficient size according to forage quality and quantity, and climatic conditions.

A reminder why diversity is so valuable. Forage quality and quantity and climatic conditions can change, even within one area over time and it's nice to be able to adjust our animals accordingly if needed.

Thanks for the good post.

 

[dyates]

I haven't been able to figure out how folks are successfully selling 700+ pound calves out of 1200 pound cows. I would love to do it if I could figure out how to do so without going broke at the feed mill. I also believe, on average, that high weaning weights equal high milk production equals a shorter productive cow life.

Can you explain that more, is it because they lose udder soundness or don't rebreed?

A related comment: it looks to me that in some areas, we are going from a wet early spring to a drier than normal late spring and maybe summer where forage may again be limited/below normal in July and August.

We rely on whatever grows between Feb - April/May to last us until the following year and we supplement with hay in the fall and winter. I'm about to cull a 1,600 lb cow that always looks fat, is low milking, and produces calves that are average to below average. Even though she's big and looks good, there's nothing efficient about her. It's hard to believe she could really be lower input than one of my 1,200 lb cows and her output isn't anything impressive.

ArmyDoc, I think that there is some variation in optimum cow size according to environment. I ranched for many years in what is possibly the harshest environment for cattle. I used cattle native to the area, which have developed over 2000 years of natural selection in the environment before being selected for commercial conformation. These cows average 1100 lbs adult weight, when i tried to raise some heavier F1's, I had to feed a subsidised ration as the F1 steers required a higher plane of nutrition than the environment provided... Environment seems to dictate the efficient size according to forage quality and quantity, and climatic conditions.

A reminder why diversity is so valuable. Forage quality and quantity and climatic conditions can change, even within one area over time and it's nice to be able to adjust our animals accordingly if needed.

Thanks for the good post.

Neither udder soundness or rebreeding is what I'm talking about. For me, it seems when cows get up into their years, milk production starts falling and so do weaning weights. I feel like this drop comes at an earlier age on the girls that milk heavier early in life. It also seems skeletal problems come earlier, (bad hips) and the girls can't walk as well.

 

[dun]

Neither udder soundness or rebreeding is what I'm talking about. For me, it seems when cows get up into their years, milk production starts falling and so do weaning weights. I feel like this drop comes at an earlier age on the girls that milk heavier early in life. It also seems skeletal problems come earlier, (bad hips) and the girls can't walk as well.

What age do you see this happening? A lot of the structural problems that show up has to do with the terrain they have to traverse and the marginal flaws that were over looked as younger cows/calves. In some areas those kinds of problems don;t show up because the pastures are small enough and not rough enough to really stress the cows body and locomotion ability

 

[dyates]

Usually ten or better. It may be all in my head. It's hard to know for sure with a little bitty herd like mine and no real data. A year or two of productivity is all I'm thinking I see, but I think it would be worth sacrificing a few pounds of calf every year if I could keep the cows for another year or two before having to cull. Just as a sidenote, the last old cow that I culled was the kind I like. She was fifteen and had produced thirteen calves. None of those calves were in the top of the class weight wise, but I still have most of her daughters and some of her granddaughters and great granddaughters.

 

[dun]

Usually ten or better. It may be all in my head. It's hard to know for sure with a little bitty herd like mine and no real data. A year or two of productivity is all I'm thinking I see, but I think it would be worth sacrificing a few pounds of calf every year if I could keep the cows for another year or two before having to cull. Just as a sidenote, the last old cow that I culled was the kind I like. She was fifteen and had produced thirteen calves. None of those calves were in the top of the class weight wise, but I still have most of her daughters and some of her granddaughters and great granddaughters.

We have only one cow that I would consider a really heavy milker, she's 7 and her calf this year isn;t doing as well as previous years. Her problem is that her udder has broken down so bad in the rear quarters that the calf can;t get low enough to reach the teats. She will be finding her way on the truck at weaning time.

 

[ArmyDoc]

The cows in the center are about 1200 lb natural, mature, BCS 6 or 7, post calving weight. These are my target and I think very doable. They've had some very good calves, are good mamas and have some beef on them. I would be concerned about trying to get Herefords much lower. jmho.

The cows on either side weigh between 1350 and 1500 lb. These are typical of the ones I'm thinking of culling.

I think I can select for cows this 1200 lb size, especially with my bull, and still be working "with" nature, not against nature.

Jim

What frame size are the two in the middle, and what frame size are the ones on either side of them?

 

[SRBeef]

Sorry but I have no idea what frame size they are. I don't yet understand frame size measurements. They are at least a good 6 inches shorter than the ones on either side but very solid. They raise very good calves with weaning weights as high or higher than the larger cows. Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

There is much more to the matter of overwintering ability than weight. Breed choice and locally adapted cattle of successful local breeds to me are the key to success in extreme climates, either hot or cold. Not weight within that group. Assuming of course that they are all adequately nourished for whatever climate they are in.

Don't forget backfat. You can have a very well adapted cow in good times, but if she lacks the genetics to lay on a sufficient amount of backfat in good times she is going to struggle through a winter. The same applies for an overselection of growth, the growthier the calf, the longer the long bone growth continues the later they will start to lay down backfat the more they will struggle through a winter or any other harsh times.

I often get the impression breeders are using EPDs for selection (especially the carcass traits and the profit indeces) without really understanding the real world consequences.

 

[ArmyDoc]

Sorry but I have no idea what frame size they are. I don't yet understand frame size measurements. They are at least a good 6 inches shorter than the ones on either side but very solid. They raise very good calves with weaning weights as high or higher than the larger cows. Jim

If you can measure their height at the hip, you can look up their frame size off a chart. Here's a reference with a chart and pictures of how to measure: http://animalscience.tamu.edu/images/pd ... csE192.pdf

As a quick rule of thumb, a mature cow (36 months) that is a frame size 3, will measure about 48 inches at the hip. Each increase or decrease in frame size is 2 inches. For bulls, it works the same way, but they are 4 inches taller.

I was surprised that the difference in size was 6 inches. I would have guessed less. But when I looked at the pictures again, I saw that you were clearly right. If those guard rales behind them are 9 inches wide, your right the one on the left would be 6 inches and the one on the right would be about 5 inches taller. If the guard rails are a 12 inches wide, they may even be more than that.

Wow. Looking at them in the picture, I was thinking there was only a couple of inches difference between them. But then agian, the chart I posted above says that at a given a given BCS, there should be a 100 pound difference for every jump in frame size - your talking about 300 pounds (1500-1200)which would predict a 6 inch height difference... Guess I should have been able to figure the height difference without asking.

 

[SRBeef]

fwiw those are 12" guard rails

 

[dcara]

Saw a couple of posts in this thread which assumed that cow energy intake requirements (i.e. feed) were 1:1 proportional to weight. I don't believe this is the case based on the paper linked to below. Energy intake requirements to weight ratio is somewhat linear but only fractionly proportional. In short, Table 2 in the paper shows that a 1400 lb cow only requires 23Mcal of ME vs. 20.3 for a 1200 lb cow. That translates to 13.3% more energy for 16.6% larger cow.

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/animal/az9523.pdf

 

[HerefordSire]

Saw a couple of posts in this thread which assumed that cow energy intake requirements (i.e. feed) were 1:1 proportional to weight. I don't believe this is the case based on the paper linked to below. Energy intake requirements to weight ratio is somewhat linear but only fractionly proportional. In short, Table 2 in the paper shows that a 1400 lb cow only requires 23Mcal of ME vs. 20.3 for a 1200 lb cow. That translates to 13.3% more energy for 16.6% larger cow.

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/animal/az9523.pdf

That would agree with what I was thinking. In addition, the values could fluctuate based upon different metabolism rates. So theoretically, one could have 2 lighter weight cows consuming more MCals then 2 heavier cows. I sure would hate to cull the best looking cows, which happened to be heavier, in my herd without knowing for sure which ones were more efficient or consumed less MCals.

 

[ArmyDoc]

Any updates to this old thread? Which cows / calves ended up being most efficient at the end of the year?