Cow Size Question

[EAT BEEF]

More smaller cows will produce more lbs of beef than fewer larger ones per acre.So the only thing I can think of is to watch that milk production doesn't get higher than your willing to suport.I figure the bigger calves are getting more milk from the thinner cows.(how much bigger sub does a 300lbs women eat than a 260lbs women?)Could you run even more 1200 lbs cows with less milk than the 1200 lbs cows you have now and produce more lbs of beef per acre?Could you put the extra lbs on those calves with grass of feed cheaper than you could with the milk?

IMO middle of the road is the best place to be for my operation,but if your selling freezer beef it might be someplace else for you.

 

[SRBeef]

More smaller cows will produce more lbs of beef than fewer larger ones per acre.So the only thing I can think of is to watch that milk production doesn't get higher than your willing to suport. ... Could you run even more 1200 lbs cows with less milk than the 1200 lbs cows you have now and produce more lbs of beef per acre? Could you put the extra lbs on those calves with grass of feed cheaper than you could with the milk?...

That is an interesting point and could be a problem if, after selecting for 1200 lb cows, I also selected for the maximum 205 day weaning weight calves. I could end up with a fleet of 1200 lb cows that are extremely high milkers but burn themselves out.

I have one cow that is actually about 1150 lb and is not a very high milker but always has a decent calf that out of necessity perhaps ends up grazing more than nursing. Her calf last year would try to nurse any other cow that would let it but in the end the calf was right in their weight wise with the others.

Maybe after getting my cow size down to 1200 lb, I could at that point select hiefers to retain more by phenotype rather than by weaning weight. This would maybe guard against ending up with a herd of very high milkers which I agree is not a good thing.

Thank you EB for the good point. I also agree that this approach may not be appropriate for everyone but in my case I think it will allow me to produce more quality beef on the acres I have. Jim

 

[HerefordSire]

More smaller cows will produce more lbs of beef than fewer larger ones per acre.So the only thing I can think of is to watch that milk production doesn't get higher than your willing to suport. ... Could you run even more 1200 lbs cows with less milk than the 1200 lbs cows you have now and produce more lbs of beef per acre? Could you put the extra lbs on those calves with grass of feed cheaper than you could with the milk?...

That is an interesting point and could be a problem if, after selecting for 1200 lb cows, I also selected for the maximum 205 day weaning weight calves. I could end up with a fleet of 1200 lb cows that are extremely high milkers but burn themselves out.

I have one cow that is actually about 1150 lb and is not a very high milker but always has a decent calf that out of necessity perhaps ends up grazing more than nursing. Her calf last year would try to nurse any other cow that would let it but in the end the calf was right in their weight wise with the others.

Maybe after getting my cow size down to 1200 lb, I could at that point select hiefers to retain more by phenotype rather than by weaning weight. This would maybe guard against ending up with a herd of very high milkers which I agree is not a good thing.

Thank you EB for the good point. I also agree that this approach may not be appropriate for everyone but in my case I think it will allow me to produce more quality beef on the acres I have. Jim

Jim, I am partially serious and partially trying to be the devil's advocate..

Why not get all your cows weight down to 1100 pounds? How about 1,000? How about 900? How about 800? If you get them down to 500, you could flood your pastures with small cows with calfs and your pounds per acre will surely increase. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[HerefordSire]

I tend to agree with you except for I think high percentage weaning weights are the culprit rather than the size of the cow. I don't care if a cow weighs 900 pounds or 1500 pounds as long as she weans off somewhere between 47% and 50%. As Jo says, she also has to do it with out any supplements other than mineral. As I said on another topic once before, I haven't been able to figure out how folks are successfully selling 700+ pound calves out of 1200 pound cows. I would love to do it if I could figure out how to do so without going broke at the feed mill. I also believe, on average, that high weaning weights equal high milk production equals a shorter productive cow life.

Very good post. Are you one of the middle of the road guys?

 

[HerefordSire]

Good Find Busterz! Based upon the boards here, I was thinking 1,200 pounds was average light. If the numbers are correct from your source, then I would say I was a little off. I would be interested to know where the numbers came from because I have never reported my cow weights. Have you?

His numbers are all generated based off the carcass weights. He takes the average carcass weight, and the average BCS to generate an average live weight for slaughter cows based on dressing percentage for a given BCS. I don't have too much problem following his numbers to this point. But I'm not sure I followed how he generated the average live weights for mature for mature cows.

Pretty good idea if you ask me. It sure seems at tad heavier than what I am used to seeing in rural Arkansas.

 

[HerefordSire]

Unless the feed intake is monitored, how do you know which cow is eating more?

That is my simple but important point. There is no way anyone can tell. Any healthy animal culled can be the wrong animal to cull. This means most other associated calcuating techniques, such as cow size, cow weight, calf weaning weight, weaning weight percentage, cow frame size, etc. are all useless and a waste of time. I agree with your other statement about fertility because you can measure it precisely and can compare and can make major decisions beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I disagree with you on this. If you cull for a certain trait the average will be skewed in the direction that you are pushing. Measuring the exact intake of each cow is impractical and unnecessary cause you know your inputs. So in other words, if the culling has resulted in a higher average calf weight and higher live birth rate with the same grass then the culling had a positive effect on my bottom line.

Changing the subject some but I still say you can judge the amount of intake by the size of the cow pies especially the ones that occur after their lounge. Can this be measured to the exact ounce. Probably not. But I think anyone who argues this point has never watched yearlings closely or for that matter never changed a baby's diaper. On the latter, most will agree what goes in is going to come out and its all so cute up until the baby gets a little size on it then its a different story. (do I hear an amen from the ladies) ;-) :lol2:

Disagreeing is healthy. I have a patent on disposable cow diapers. Measure the weight of the diaper and spray em off with a water hose. Next?

Believe this or not, I have been obsessessed with figuring out how to automatically weigh cow poop.

 

[EAT BEEF]

More smaller cows will produce more lbs of beef than fewer larger ones per acre.So the only thing I can think of is to watch that milk production doesn't get higher than your willing to suport. ... Could you run even more 1200 lbs cows with less milk than the 1200 lbs cows you have now and produce more lbs of beef per acre? Could you put the extra lbs on those calves with grass of feed cheaper than you could with the milk?...

That is an interesting point and could be a problem if, after selecting for 1200 lb cows, I also selected for the maximum 205 day weaning weight calves. I could end up with a fleet of 1200 lb cows that are extremely high milkers but burn themselves out.

I have one cow that is actually about 1150 lb and is not a very high milker but always has a decent calf that out of necessity perhaps ends up grazing more than nursing. Her calf last year would try to nurse any other cow that would let it but in the end the calf was right in their weight wise with the others.

Maybe after getting my cow size down to 1200 lb, I could at that point select hiefers to retain more by phenotype rather than by weaning weight. This would maybe guard against ending up with a herd of very high milkers which I agree is not a good thing.

Thank you EB for the good point. I also agree that this approach may not be appropriate for everyone but in my case I think it will allow me to produce more quality beef on the acres I have. Jim

Jim, I am partially serious and partially trying to be the devil's advocate..

Why not get all your cows weight down to 1100 pounds? How about 1,000? How about 900? How about 800? If you get them down to 500, you could flood your pastures with small cows with calfs and your pounds per acre will surely increase. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It's not very hard to get a 800lbs cow to wean at least 50% of her weight, even in the desert.So if the cow was bred to a terminal sire,you would be on your way to maximizeing lbs per acre.Since were talking about selling freezer beef we don't have to worry about getting docked for puds and the only problem I can see is getting the steaks to small. :mrgreen:

 

[HerefordSire]

EB....we could raise more bone weight per acre at the 500s and the WW ratio could be 100%. We won't cull that one! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Jogeephus]

Disagreeing is healthy.

On this we agree. While I may not agree with all you have said it has made me stop and think. This is good - I think. I question everything I do - continuously. Am probably my biggest critic. I'm still looking for the better mousetrap. When I find it, believe me, I'll have a patent on it too. :nod:

 

[HerefordSire]

Disagreeing is healthy.

On this we agree. While I may not agree with all you have said it has made me stop and think. This is good - I think. I question everything I do - continuously. Am probably my biggest critic. I'm still looking for the better mousetrap. When I find it, believe me, I'll have a patent on it too. :nod:

I don't have a patent for a disposable cow diaper although I thought about it quite a bit. I was waiting to see your reply. :cboy: :cboy: :cboy:

 

[EAT BEEF]

EB....we could raise more bone weight per acre at the 500s and the WW ratio could be 100%. We won't cull that one! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[ArmyDoc]

In my particular situation I am acreage-limited. I am looking for the most beef I can produce per acre....

So I am back to my preliminary personal conclusion that, in my grass-limited operation, I can wean four calves from four 1200 lb cows on the same grass that I can wean three calves from three 1500 lb cows.

And that the total weight of the four calves from the four 1200 lb cows will be about 1/3 more than the total weight of the three calves from the three 1500 lb cows.

FWIW. Jim

I think your calculations may be off. The 1500 pound cow weighs 25% more than the 1200 pound cow, thus would eat 25% more. So you would need to replace 4 1500 pound cows, to feed an extra (total 5) 1200 pound cow.

I didn't want to post anything because I'm just a beginner and wasn't sure it worked that way - but then Cross_7 posted this article -

http://www.thecattleshow.com/index.php? ... tcscontent

They say the grazing requirements are 1.83 pounds or forage/day/100pounds live weight. Based on that, the feeding requirements for a 1200 pound cow is 8015 pounds, for a 1500 pound cow is 10,019 pounds - a 25% difference. You'd need to replace 4 1500 cow to be able to feed one extra 1200 pound cow (total 5).

On the other hand, you could feed one extra 1000 pound cow for every two 1500 pound cows you replaced.

Kit Pharo says 1000 to 1100 pounds is the "right" size for grass based beef. Any thoughts on this?

 

[alacattleman]

That is my simple but important point. There is no way anyone can tell. Any healthy animal culled can be the wrong animal to cull. This means most other associated calcuating techniques, such as cow size, cow weight, calf weaning weight, weaning weight percentage, cow frame size, etc. are all useless and a waste of time. I agree with your other statement about fertility because you can measure it precisely and can compare and can make major decisions beyond a shadow of a doubt.[/quote]

I disagree with you on this. If you cull for a certain trait the average will be skewed in the direction that you are pushing. Measuring the exact intake of each cow is impractical and unnecessary cause you know your inputs. So in other words, if the culling has resulted in a higher average calf weight and higher live birth rate with the same grass then the culling had a positive effect on my bottom line.

Changing the subject some but I still say you can judge the amount of intake by the size of the cow pies especially the ones that occur after their lounge. Can this be measured to the exact ounce. Probably not. But I think anyone who argues this point has never watched yearlings closely or for that matter never changed a baby's diaper. On the latter, most will agree what goes in is going to come out and its all so cute up until the baby gets a little size on it then its a different story. (do I hear an amen from the ladies) ;-) :lol2:[/quote]

Disagreeing is healthy. I have a patent on disposable cow diapers. Measure the weight of the diaper and spray em off with a water hose. Next?

Believe this or not, I have been obsessessed with figuring out how to automatically weigh cow poop. [/quote] i believe you

 

[HerefordSire]

In my particular situation I am acreage-limited. I am looking for the most beef I can produce per acre....

So I am back to my preliminary personal conclusion that, in my grass-limited operation, I can wean four calves from four 1200 lb cows on the same grass that I can wean three calves from three 1500 lb cows.

And that the total weight of the four calves from the four 1200 lb cows will be about 1/3 more than the total weight of the three calves from the three 1500 lb cows.

FWIW. Jim

I think your calculations may be off. The 1500 pound cow weighs 25% more than the 1200 pound cow, thus would eat 25% more. So you would need to replace 4 1500 pound cows, to feed an extra (total 5) 1200 pound cow.

I didn't want to post anything because I'm just a beginner and wasn't sure it worked that way - but then Cross_7 posted this article -

http://www.thecattleshow.com/index.php? ... tcscontent

They say the grazing requirements are 1.83 pounds or forage/day/100pounds live weight. Based on that, the feeding requirements for a 1200 pound cow is 8015 pounds, for a 1500 pound cow is 10,019 pounds - a 25% difference. You'd need to replace 4 1500 cow to be able to feed one extra 1200 pound cow (total 5).

On the other hand, you could feed one extra 1000 pound cow for every two 1500 pound cows you replaced.

Kit Pharo says 1000 to 1100 pounds is the "right" size for grass based beef. Any thoughts on this?

Good catch ArmyDoc. That changes everything.

 

[SRBeef]

The cows in the center are about 1200 lb natural, mature, BCS 6 or 7, post calving weight. These are my target and I think very doable. They've had some very good calves, are good mamas and have some beef on them. I would be concerned about trying to get Herefords much lower. jmho.

The cows on either side weigh between 1350 and 1500 lb. These are typical of the ones I'm thinking of culling.

I think I can select for cows this 1200 lb size, especially with my bull, and still be working "with" nature, not against nature.

Jim

edit: by the way this picture was taken last fall, 2 weeks after weaning. They were in the corral for a gentling grain treat only. They are not fed much grain other than the grazed corn stalks in the background. I still give them a bucket of sweet feed once a week or so to keep them coming to me and feeling comfortable in the corral, tub and chute. They exit the corral through the chute most of the time.

 

[TexasBred]

I think your calculations may be off. The 1500 pound cow weighs 25% more than the 1200 pound cow, thus would eat 25% more. So you would need to replace 4 1500 pound cows, to feed an extra (total 5) 1200 pound cow.

I didn't want to post anything because I'm just a beginner and wasn't sure it worked that way - but then Cross_7 posted this article -

BUT...what if you raised the TDN, all energy levels and protein levels in your ration by 25%? What would be the results even with the lighter cow?

 

[ArmyDoc]

BUT...what if you raised the TDN, all energy levels and protein levels in your ration by 25%? What would be the results even with the lighter cow?

I'm not sure what TDN is - Total Daily Nutrition? If so, is what your asking, what would happen if you fed 25% more to lighter cows compared to feeding 25% more to heavier cows? Or are you asking what if you fed the correct ration for heavier cows to ligher cows?

Either way, I'm not sure what your getting at. If you feed 25% more feed than the cow needs, wouldn't they just get fat, and perhaps waste the excess?

 

[cross_7]

I think your calculations may be off. The 1500 pound cow weighs 25% more than the 1200 pound cow, thus would eat 25% more. So you would need to replace 4 1500 pound cows, to feed an extra (total 5) 1200 pound cow.

I didn't want to post anything because I'm just a beginner and wasn't sure it worked that way - but then Cross_7 posted this article -

BUT...what if you raised the TDN, all energy levels and protein levels in your ration by 25%? What would be the results even with the lighter cow?

i've wondered the same thing.
we are in arid west tx here with tough low tdn grass and i have thought about feeding a couple pounds of cotton seed per head per day, but i'm not sure it will pay off.

 

[TexasBred]

BUT...what if you raised the TDN, all energy levels and protein levels in your ration by 25%? What would be the results even with the lighter cow?

I'm not sure what TDN is - Total Daily Nutrition? If so, is what your asking, what would happen if you fed 25% more to lighter cows compared to feeding 25% more to heavier cows? Or are you asking what if you fed the correct ration for heavier cows to ligher cows?

Either way, I'm not sure what your getting at. If you feed 25% more feed than the cow needs, wouldn't they just get fat, and perhaps waste the excess?

NO...just the opposite. If you feed a higher quality feed, whether grass, hay or grain, you can feed less and often get better results. (TDN = Total Digestable Nutrients"). The cow just won't feel as full all the time and will produce less manure. Whole cottonseed is an exceptionally good feed ingredient but too expensive the last couple of years unless you can find a bargain somewhere.

 

[andybob]

ArmyDoc, I think that there is some variation in optimum cow size according to environment. I ranched for many years in what is possibly the harshest environment for cattle. I used cattle native to the area, which have developed over 2000 years of natural selection in the environment before being selected for commercial conformation. These cows average 1100 lbs adult weight, when i tried to raise some heavier F1's, I had to feed a subsidised ration as the F1 steers required a higher plane of nutrition than the environment provided. I am presently in England, where my employer runs a grass fed system with Angus and Hereford, both breeds weighing more in the 1300 range, lighter ones do well in the warmer weather, but seem to struggle to overwinter. Environment seems to dictate the efficient size according to forage quality and quantity, and climatic conditions.