I probably should thank ours for taking the time to do a decent job then. Now sometimes they will short hand the description as "bwf" or "rwf" or "gwf" (black white face, red white face, or grey white face); but they have never been so lazy as to not mark "bull", "steer" , "cow", or "hfr" (heifer) handwritten in the appropriate column in the sheet they give me on dropping off the cattle (I ain't leaving no cattle at the stockyard until I get a statement that matches the index card list I carry....and when I am hauling for other people there could be as many as three checks headed to three different people and they had better not not get paid for all their cattle). Then the same description and terminology appears printed out on the computerized receipt that is attached to the check.
cost effectiveness of castrating?
- Thread starter Txwalt
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flaboy?
Well-known member
Brandon, I was referring to the sale sheet (receipt) not the drop off sheet. Heck, my drop off sheet says "calves - xx", and sometimes "cow - x".
These folks are really bad. I hauled some for lady down the road, gave them her name and address on a card, they ripped out the receipt and didn't put her name or address on it. I didn't notice as she handed mine and hers at the same time and I just looked at the numbers. I had to call and ask about it and they said "we didn't know where to send the check". I said heck I gave you a card with all the info to copy down.
They have a bunch of kids working there during drop-off. I will watch more closely from now on.
These folks are really bad. I hauled some for lady down the road, gave them her name and address on a card, they ripped out the receipt and didn't put her name or address on it. I didn't notice as she handed mine and hers at the same time and I just looked at the numbers. I had to call and ask about it and they said "we didn't know where to send the check". I said heck I gave you a card with all the info to copy down.
They have a bunch of kids working there during drop-off. I will watch more closely from now on.
CUZ
Well-known member
flaboy?":25orsi4h said:
We steer all of our bull calves. I figure it's worth about $20-$30 per head to have that done. We missed most of them there for a few years and we could tell it made a difference in the check when we started getting them all done. I'll be interested to see how Limomike's test comes out over there in Oklahoma.
As far as the drop off sheet it just says black or red and steer or heifer for the calves. When they run in the ring the Auctioneer makes a point to say whether they are bull calves or steers. If want to check it out here's the website where you can watch the sale here in Dickson, Tenn. http://www.lmaauctions.com/MySale.aspx
Ours must have been sued before my time or something. I pop open my trailer, tell the guy those ~4 are together, they move them on into a holding pen, I unload the next ~6, I tell the guy these six stay together. Then I pull the truck up to let the next guy unload, then I go to the tagging room, they put four tags on the first four...311 rwf bull, 312 rwf hfr, 313 white cow, 314 black steer, etc I hand them my index card with name and address. The girl copies that on to the receipt and asks me if I want the cow preg chegged, then shows it to me to make sure it is accurate, then gives me the carbon copy. We repeat the process with the next bunch and I drive off with both yellow copies for my records. It is the same deal for a double decker transfer truck, except he is going to be there a lot longer. The sellers get the same along with the weights, $$ per lb, total dollars, and commissions and deductions on a receipt that is attached to the check.
Boss Cowman
Well-known member
my experiance is that a bull calf will usually gain better than a steer, but I cut em. When the cattle market slows down you will get hammered for having bull calves. Even the last few years a bull calf will not brinng as much as a steer with ererything being equal. A five or ten dollar a hundred dock doesn't seem like much unless you are making a living with your livestock. Maybe that answers the "when are you a rancher" question. :lol:
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
Glover and I live a few hundred miles apart - if you don't steer them I deduct what it will cost me in time, and setback to buy them.
Only those too lazy or don't care what they get don't steer em.
Likely Glover said just how and when.
I am gonna stick with banding near birth.
Too many good steered calves come through to bother with bull calves unless they are heavily docked.
ALX
Only those too lazy or don't care what they get don't steer em.
Likely Glover said just how and when.
I am gonna stick with banding near birth.
Too many good steered calves come through to bother with bull calves unless they are heavily docked.
ALX
CUZ
Well-known member
AngusLimoX":269ltpyk said:
That's a pretty broad statement you've made there.
Sometimes stuff happens and you just have to let the "rough end drag". Then when your help gets back or you get the higher priorities handled then you can get back to your regular program.
Cuz
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
CUZ":bebto1kw said:
Don't look for pity in a salebarn pen.
ALX
CUZ
Well-known member
AngusLimoX":3b1hjcno said:
Not looking for pity. You said "Only those too lazy or don't care what they get don't steer em." And that's probably true in some cases but certainly not all.
Cuz
flaboy?
Well-known member
I have seen a lot retained testicles in calves from places that band newborns. My butcher tells me he sees the same thing. It is some times hard to determine if you have them both at that age unless you cut them. IF/WHEN I band I do it at 2-3 months. Just makes the whole process easier.
AngusLimoX
Well-known member
CUZ":xwqzdyfr said:
I was also talking locally Cuz. It's a big board.
Fla - ya gotta count to 2 and there are a few that get the knife or burdizzo later on cause I couldn't get em down.
For the most part what a time and money saver banding is.
ALX
DavisBeefmasters
Well-known member
Green Creek":1zxjk5c2 said:
Cutting/Banding at weaning will only increase the stress level of the animal at weaning (one of the most "stressful" times of a calves time here on earth) which if it's in a large group could create issues... and weight loss for a longer period of time.
We like to dehorn (for those that have horns), brand, and cut/band at the vaccination stage while their still on momma to keep them growing well.
CUZ
Well-known member
AngusLimoX":3vlpd14n said:
I understand now. ;-)
We do not cut either.
The pay is very little for alot of time.
Its not our fault if some one uses a junk bull to breed...
The pay is very little for alot of time.
Its not our fault if some one uses a junk bull to breed...
Re:
You can tell a lot about a rancher (farmer) from looking at what he is selling and "laziness and/or "caring" are two prime indicators.
And both laziness and proper caring about/for the animal are always considered when attempting to determine the risk factor to determine a bid price.
Now I fully understand that "time" "facilities" and/or "labor" can play a big part in weather you castrate or not, or when. I have been there.
But when an animal is not castrated it does cost the producer money, regardless of the exact amount, and does show that the seller is not really concerned and doesn't care about getting the highest price for his product, as do many other factors.
Not castrating also indicated he/she may have taken some other shortcuts that could further raise the risk factor for the buyer if the animal is purchased and further will reduce his bid price.
In short, let me put it this way.
Just as there is a risk factor for you as the producer, which continues to grow for you every step of the way from purchase of a bull and cow, to the sale of your calf, so is there a risk factor for the buyer who purchases your product until his sale.
And the older the bull is castrated the higher the risk to the owner be he the producer or the buyer.
SL
I have been tempted to open that can of worms many times, but thought it would be better not too. So as ALX has opened it here we go.
You can tell a lot about a rancher (farmer) from looking at what he is selling and "laziness and/or "caring" are two prime indicators.
And both laziness and proper caring about/for the animal are always considered when attempting to determine the risk factor to determine a bid price.
Now I fully understand that "time" "facilities" and/or "labor" can play a big part in weather you castrate or not, or when. I have been there.
But when an animal is not castrated it does cost the producer money, regardless of the exact amount, and does show that the seller is not really concerned and doesn't care about getting the highest price for his product, as do many other factors.
Not castrating also indicated he/she may have taken some other shortcuts that could further raise the risk factor for the buyer if the animal is purchased and further will reduce his bid price.
In short, let me put it this way.
Just as there is a risk factor for you as the producer, which continues to grow for you every step of the way from purchase of a bull and cow, to the sale of your calf, so is there a risk factor for the buyer who purchases your product until his sale.
And the older the bull is castrated the higher the risk to the owner be he the producer or the buyer.
SL
somn":2xrxnxzn said:
For 500 lbs that would be $50 to $75. The numbers seem to keep getting bigger as the thread gets longer. I can see castrating calves for a gain like that but that is not going on around here.
Walt
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
At our sale barn, the males get docked. Alot. Please don't ask me how much but i know they go cheap.
We use the band right after birth. 6 hrs to 1.5 days old. We find it easier on the calves and on us.
but this year two go by me. I say me because i do the barn work, husband feeds the cows and beds down. One calf I could not get the second nut down no matter how hard i tried. It seemed like there was room for only one in the "neck" of the sack. got the husband to help and he had the same problem. We tried several times until he was two - three weeks old and could not get it. At 3 months we were going to get a guy who does cutting well to come in but he couldn't. We don't know how and in all honestly we are willing to pay him 5 dollars a head to cut a bull. So he will get done when we booster, still on the momma, with no flies. We hope he will not loose to much weight doing it that way.
The second guy i either missed him as a bull or the ring fell off or broke. Noticed he was still attached and well...he'll get done at the same time as the other one.
Always count 2 before i release the ringer, and then count again when the tool is off.
I hope they do not loose to much weight cutting them. Never had to do this before.
We've had the guy cut a home grown "possible" bull but never a calf.
We use the band right after birth. 6 hrs to 1.5 days old. We find it easier on the calves and on us.
but this year two go by me. I say me because i do the barn work, husband feeds the cows and beds down. One calf I could not get the second nut down no matter how hard i tried. It seemed like there was room for only one in the "neck" of the sack. got the husband to help and he had the same problem. We tried several times until he was two - three weeks old and could not get it. At 3 months we were going to get a guy who does cutting well to come in but he couldn't. We don't know how and in all honestly we are willing to pay him 5 dollars a head to cut a bull. So he will get done when we booster, still on the momma, with no flies. We hope he will not loose to much weight doing it that way.
The second guy i either missed him as a bull or the ring fell off or broke. Noticed he was still attached and well...he'll get done at the same time as the other one.
Always count 2 before i release the ringer, and then count again when the tool is off.
I hope they do not loose to much weight cutting them. Never had to do this before.
We've had the guy cut a home grown "possible" bull but never a calf.
larryshoat
Well-known member
I will admit many times proucers are not be paid enough for work done to calves ,but right is right.All calves should be castrated-healed, weaned,bunk broke,two rounds of vaccines before they are sold.We will produce a better product with less medicine and death loss.I know that for some operations this would take some time to accomplish,but I think a worthwhile goal. As cattle buyers we need to reward those that produce these kinds of calves.
"Castration of Beef Calves"
Clyde Lane, Jr., Professor – Animal Science;
Richard Powell, Program Leader – Western Region;
Brian White, Area Livestock Agent – Western Region;
and Steve Glass, County Director – Decatur County
The castration of calves is an economically important management practice for the cow-calf producer. Feeder cattle buyers prefer the quieter dispositions of steers and the ease with which steers are handled while in the feedlot. The preference for steers is reflected in the prices paid for bulls and steers. Reports from Tennessee livestock markets reveal that bull calves usually sell for less per pound than steers of comparable quality and weight. The amount of the discount for bulls may be from zero up to as much as $10 or more per hundredweight. The amount will vary depending on time of year, weight of calf, feeder cattle supplies, etc. Generally, the discount is $5 to $7 per hundred pounds. This amounts to a discount of $25 to $35 on a 500-pound bull calf. The losses from not using this management practice could pay for an adequate handling facility. Opinions vary as to the best time to castrate the calf. Research data generally indicate that little difference in final weaning weight is found whether a calf is castrated early and implanted or castrated late. Calves castrated later usually have a greater setback from the surgery. The result is little difference in final weaning weight. Bulls that weigh more than 500 pounds generally bleed more and are affected more by stress and infection. However, in some beef operations, it is not practical to castrate calves at an early age because potential herd bull prospects will not be selected until after performance records are obtained following weaning.
Table 1 illustrates the effect of time of castration on average
daily gain.
Table 1
Average Daily Gains From Birth to Weaning of Calves
Castrated at Various Ages & Bull Calves* /ADG (Ib)
Castrated at Birth/ 1.80
Castrated at 3 Months/ 1.76
Bull Calves/ 1.90*Summary of four years research, Oregon State University
Research conducted at the University of Wisconsin has shown that bull calves can be castrated at a young age without losing the weight-gaining advantage, provided they are implanted at the time of castration. Note there was no difference in weight gain between bulls and implanted steers in research reported in Table 2.
Table 2
Performance of Bulls Versus Implanted Steers*
Preweaning/ Bulls/ Implanted Steers
Initial Wt./ 237/ 242
Weaning Wt./ 473/ 478
Avg. Gain/ 236/ 236
Difference in Gain 0
*Univ. of Wisconsin
The best times to castrate are in the spring and fall when flies and maggots are less likely to increase irritation and infection of the wound. Several methods have been used to remove the testicles; however, not all methods allow for adequate drainage. A brief discussion of the four castration techniques is presented below.
Surgical Castration The testicles are removed from the bull by making an opening in the scrotum. The best method is to use the Newberry knife, since it gives excellent drainage and is much safer to the bull and to the handler as well. The danger of severing the large saphenous vein, which is found near the surface of the inside of the leg, is completely eliminated. The scrotum is properly disinfected and the testicles are pushed up toward the body as far as possible with one hand. The Newberry knife (Figure 2) is held in the other hand and is positioned with the blade open and exposed along the sides of the scrotum halfway up the scrotum, for good drainage. Insert the blade from side to side (not front to rear), squeeze the handles and cut through the septum that separate the two testicles and pull down and away from the bull. This leaves the top flaps of scrotum and the exposed testicles. Grasp each testicle individually and apply tension on the cord. Place an emasculator with crimper on the cord as high as possible and leave it on for about 15 seconds to reduce hemorrhage. Apply an antiseptic powder to help prevent bacterial infection. Another surgical method is to cut off the lower one-third of the scrotum. After the testicles are exposed, they should be grasped and extended one at a time while pushing back the connective tissue surrounding the cord (See Figure 3). Once the cord is exposed, sever it as high as possible by using an emasculator with a crimper or by scraping with a knife blade. Do not cut the cord and associated blood vessels, as excessive bleeding may occur. In young calves, the testicle may be grasped and pulled until the cord breaks.
Elastration: This method is one in which a rubber band is placed around the scrotum at its neck. The rubber band is applied using a forceps-like instrument. Prime the band with several squeezes of the handle, while shielding the eyes with the cupped hand. Now stretch the rubber band enough for it to be placed over the scrotum. As the rubber band is placed on the scrotum, it is essential that the testicles be pulled down so the rubber band is between the testicles and the point where the scrotum attaches to the groin. Release tension on the band and remove the elastrator. This cuts off the blood supply and the scrotum and testicles slough off in about three weeks. If both testicles are not palpated below the band, cut the band with a knife and repeat the procedure. This is the least desirable of all the bloodless methods of castration because of the danger of tetanus. If this method is used, it should be used on calves less than one month of age. A newer version of the elastrator uses a heavy rubber loop applied with a wench device and secured with a metal clip. This is used with larger calves. It is strongly recommended to administer a tetanus toxoid at the time of application.
Emasculatome
This is a method of bloodless castration for older calves. This technique is performed with the calf standing and the tail held over the animal's back. Push the testicle down in the scrotum and position the cord to one side. The emasculatome is then positioned approximately one-third of the way across the scrotum and applied over the cord about 2 inches above the testicle (Figure 4). The emasculatome is left in place for approximately one minute. It is strongly suggested that the emasculatome be applied twice on each cord. Repeat the procedure on the other side of the scrotum. Do not apply the emasculatome all the way across the scrotum. The crushing of the blood and nerve supply is sufficient to make the testicle atrophy and become non-functional. Care must be exercised to be sure the cord is crushed and that no other damage is done. If the cord has been missed, repeat the procedure. Success with this procedure requires that the emasculatome be in good working order. If the emasculatome appears old or sprung, it may not work properly. This method is slow, requires strength and is often not 100 percent effective.
Summary
Castration should be a standard practice for all beef producers. Several techniques for castration are available; however, surgical castration using the Newberry knife is preferable. For additional information on castration, contact your local extension agent."
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publicat ... /SP692.pdf
Clyde Lane, Jr., Professor – Animal Science;
Richard Powell, Program Leader – Western Region;
Brian White, Area Livestock Agent – Western Region;
and Steve Glass, County Director – Decatur County
The castration of calves is an economically important management practice for the cow-calf producer. Feeder cattle buyers prefer the quieter dispositions of steers and the ease with which steers are handled while in the feedlot. The preference for steers is reflected in the prices paid for bulls and steers. Reports from Tennessee livestock markets reveal that bull calves usually sell for less per pound than steers of comparable quality and weight. The amount of the discount for bulls may be from zero up to as much as $10 or more per hundredweight. The amount will vary depending on time of year, weight of calf, feeder cattle supplies, etc. Generally, the discount is $5 to $7 per hundred pounds. This amounts to a discount of $25 to $35 on a 500-pound bull calf. The losses from not using this management practice could pay for an adequate handling facility. Opinions vary as to the best time to castrate the calf. Research data generally indicate that little difference in final weaning weight is found whether a calf is castrated early and implanted or castrated late. Calves castrated later usually have a greater setback from the surgery. The result is little difference in final weaning weight. Bulls that weigh more than 500 pounds generally bleed more and are affected more by stress and infection. However, in some beef operations, it is not practical to castrate calves at an early age because potential herd bull prospects will not be selected until after performance records are obtained following weaning.
Table 1 illustrates the effect of time of castration on average
daily gain.
Table 1
Average Daily Gains From Birth to Weaning of Calves
Castrated at Various Ages & Bull Calves* /ADG (Ib)
Castrated at Birth/ 1.80
Castrated at 3 Months/ 1.76
Bull Calves/ 1.90*Summary of four years research, Oregon State University
Research conducted at the University of Wisconsin has shown that bull calves can be castrated at a young age without losing the weight-gaining advantage, provided they are implanted at the time of castration. Note there was no difference in weight gain between bulls and implanted steers in research reported in Table 2.
Table 2
Performance of Bulls Versus Implanted Steers*
Preweaning/ Bulls/ Implanted Steers
Initial Wt./ 237/ 242
Weaning Wt./ 473/ 478
Avg. Gain/ 236/ 236
Difference in Gain 0
*Univ. of Wisconsin
The best times to castrate are in the spring and fall when flies and maggots are less likely to increase irritation and infection of the wound. Several methods have been used to remove the testicles; however, not all methods allow for adequate drainage. A brief discussion of the four castration techniques is presented below.
Surgical Castration The testicles are removed from the bull by making an opening in the scrotum. The best method is to use the Newberry knife, since it gives excellent drainage and is much safer to the bull and to the handler as well. The danger of severing the large saphenous vein, which is found near the surface of the inside of the leg, is completely eliminated. The scrotum is properly disinfected and the testicles are pushed up toward the body as far as possible with one hand. The Newberry knife (Figure 2) is held in the other hand and is positioned with the blade open and exposed along the sides of the scrotum halfway up the scrotum, for good drainage. Insert the blade from side to side (not front to rear), squeeze the handles and cut through the septum that separate the two testicles and pull down and away from the bull. This leaves the top flaps of scrotum and the exposed testicles. Grasp each testicle individually and apply tension on the cord. Place an emasculator with crimper on the cord as high as possible and leave it on for about 15 seconds to reduce hemorrhage. Apply an antiseptic powder to help prevent bacterial infection. Another surgical method is to cut off the lower one-third of the scrotum. After the testicles are exposed, they should be grasped and extended one at a time while pushing back the connective tissue surrounding the cord (See Figure 3). Once the cord is exposed, sever it as high as possible by using an emasculator with a crimper or by scraping with a knife blade. Do not cut the cord and associated blood vessels, as excessive bleeding may occur. In young calves, the testicle may be grasped and pulled until the cord breaks.
Elastration: This method is one in which a rubber band is placed around the scrotum at its neck. The rubber band is applied using a forceps-like instrument. Prime the band with several squeezes of the handle, while shielding the eyes with the cupped hand. Now stretch the rubber band enough for it to be placed over the scrotum. As the rubber band is placed on the scrotum, it is essential that the testicles be pulled down so the rubber band is between the testicles and the point where the scrotum attaches to the groin. Release tension on the band and remove the elastrator. This cuts off the blood supply and the scrotum and testicles slough off in about three weeks. If both testicles are not palpated below the band, cut the band with a knife and repeat the procedure. This is the least desirable of all the bloodless methods of castration because of the danger of tetanus. If this method is used, it should be used on calves less than one month of age. A newer version of the elastrator uses a heavy rubber loop applied with a wench device and secured with a metal clip. This is used with larger calves. It is strongly recommended to administer a tetanus toxoid at the time of application.
Emasculatome
This is a method of bloodless castration for older calves. This technique is performed with the calf standing and the tail held over the animal's back. Push the testicle down in the scrotum and position the cord to one side. The emasculatome is then positioned approximately one-third of the way across the scrotum and applied over the cord about 2 inches above the testicle (Figure 4). The emasculatome is left in place for approximately one minute. It is strongly suggested that the emasculatome be applied twice on each cord. Repeat the procedure on the other side of the scrotum. Do not apply the emasculatome all the way across the scrotum. The crushing of the blood and nerve supply is sufficient to make the testicle atrophy and become non-functional. Care must be exercised to be sure the cord is crushed and that no other damage is done. If the cord has been missed, repeat the procedure. Success with this procedure requires that the emasculatome be in good working order. If the emasculatome appears old or sprung, it may not work properly. This method is slow, requires strength and is often not 100 percent effective.
Summary
Castration should be a standard practice for all beef producers. Several techniques for castration are available; however, surgical castration using the Newberry knife is preferable. For additional information on castration, contact your local extension agent."
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publicat ... /SP692.pdf
