Correlation, Causation, and Coincidence

[Nutmegger]

After gleaning this board for information and insight for a couple of years, perhaps I have a contribution that may be mildly interesting.

We purchased and calved 225 first-calf heifers in early 2015. Half were black baldies from a single supplier, and generally a feedlot-like development facility. One-fourth were all black, fleshy, and beautiful from a different supplier. One fourth was a group put together at the sale barn from three different suppliers. The buyer described these as "wearing their everyday clothes". All were calved together, pastured together, and exposed to the same bulls. The mineral program was custom. Lick tubs (Breed-Up 20%) were available from 30 days before calving to the end of the breeding season. Every heifer raised a calf.

The baldies had a 90% breed back. The fleshy blacks had a 80% success in rebreeding. The salebarn blacks had a 90% breed back. I suspect there was a correlation between declining body condition and the open rate. The fleshy blacks had a more difficult time maintaining or improving body condtion than the 'everyday clothes' blacks. The baldies were a bit fleshy, but still had a better breedback.

There were 8 sets of twins calved. Of those 8 heifers that had twins (they each raised a single calf), 5 failed to breed back. This surprised me. I'm wondering if there's something about conceiving twins that causes reduced breed back.

The calving assistance was logged for each of the heifers, using the tradtional method: no assistance, easy pull, difficult pull, and C section. I had been cautioned to expect a higher open rate from those heifers that had difficulty calving. Interestingly, there was no correlation between calving difficulty and success in rebreeding.

To all who share their insight on this site, I say "Thank you" and Happy New Year.

 

[msplmtneer]

Howdy :welcome: to the board :tiphat:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I find your post very interesting Nutmegger. What was the overall situation vis a vis the ease of calving? You said you tracked the results, do you care to share that information?

TT

 

[Cross-7]

I find your post very interesting Nutmegger. What was the overall situation vis a vis the ease of calving? You said you tracked the results, do you care to share that information?

TT

+1
Very surprised each raised a calf
I'd like to hear about how many needed assistance calving and calving difficulty
Thanks for posting

 

[WalnutCrest]

I find your post very interesting Nutmegger. What was the overall situation vis a vis the ease of calving? You said you tracked the results, do you care to share that information?

TT

Agreed. It's nice to see new posters come out of the gate with something interesting.

 

[HDRider]

Excellent.

Welcome.

 

[JMJ Farms]

If you had 100% wean calves, then you done an excellent job. Good post. Welcome.

 

[Williamsv]

This is a great post. Very interesting. I was especially interested in the ones that had twins. I had a simangus heifer to have twins too little to survive. 11 months later she had a fine calf. I was worried that she might have twins again. Now she has another fine calf a little over 11 months from the last one.
I am interested to see what the black angus cow has this time after losing triplets last March. She is beginning to look a lot like she did then and eats more from the protein tub than any of the others. If she messes up again, off to the sale she goes.

 

[JMJ Farms]

This is a great post. Very interesting. I was especially interested in the ones that had twins. I had a simangus heifer to have twins too little to survive. 11 months later she had a fine calf. I was worried that she might have twins again. Now she has another fine calf a little over 11 months from the last one.
I am interested to see what the black angus cow has this time after losing triplets last March. She is beginning to look a lot like she did then and eats more from the protein tub than any of the others. If she messes up again, off to the sale she goes.

Triplets! I've never seen that. (Personally) Wonder how common it is?

 

[Nutmegger]

I find your post very interesting Nutmegger. What was the overall situation vis a vis the ease of calving? You said you tracked the results, do you care to share that information?

TT

Happy to share it.

Twenty-five calves were noted as "hard pull" and a disproportionate number were from a single calving group, which I attribute to causation - poor bull selection. Five calves were scored "C-section or extreme traction", but from the notes I see that three were C-sections and the other two were "extreme traction". Two were marked "abnormal presentation". (One of those was an induced delivery because of health issues with the heifer. Another was a birth defect.) The balance were scored "no assistance" or "easy pull".

Permit me to correct a mistake in my original post: All of the heifers went to summer pasture with a calf, and all of them had a calf at branding time (about a a month after going to summer pasture). Three calves died during the summer, so I was incorrect when I wrote "They all raised a calf". Additionally, two heifers were found to be empty and sold (one baldy, one black), reducing the total set from 225 from 223. In the end we sold 220 calves off of 223 bred heifers.

To be sure, we lost a few calves before we went to summer pasture. Of the eight pair of twins, one pair was born dead. That left seven, of which one was grafted to the heifer that delivered dead twins. The other spare twins were grafted to heifers that lost calves. (And we still ending up buying a couple of bums to graft to heifers that lost calves) Of the losses, one drowned in a stream. One was killed by it's angry mother. A few were still-born. One had a birth defect. There didn't seem to be any correlation between calving group and lost calves.

Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I had a couple of really good guys helping with this project. We made it our common goal to send each heifer out with a calf. That doesn't mean it was economic relative to the effort. It may mean that we were foolishly stubborn. Either way, it was fun.

I hope this is more clear. Thanks for your interest.

 

[Cross-7]

Very interesting
Thanks

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Thank you Nutmegger. I hope you'll stick around these parts.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Thank you Nutmegger. I hope you'll stick around these parts.

+1

 

[gizmom]

Great post thanks for sharing!

gizmom

 

[cotton1]

Hey Nutmegger :wave: Sounds to me like you are doing an excellent job. Your post is interesting. From what I can gather you may only be a little tough on the ones that didnt breed back. If you cull those it will ease your mind and you will have a sure fire set of 2nd calvers I think. The heifers that are slow to breed back in my mind deserve some long suffering since they caught and calved on the first one like they should. Are they raising the calves at side to meet your standards? I say if they are put them in their own group if possible and give them a little extra time. If thats the case that mama cow is working to give you all she can. If you do that though, I would say put a time limit on the rebreed. If the calf at side gets to pulling on the mama too much it will be harder yet to get her caught. What ever you decide, best wishes.Welcome to CT, and thanks for sharing.
Cotton1

 

[Chris H]

Fascinating information on breedback. I'm dealing with a much smaller scale here but had trouble with my 2 year olds breeding back this year. Same sire as last years heifers, but I had them in better shape and slightly bigger this year. Had to pull & cull several last year, NO pulls this year. Had the worst conception rate on 2 yr olds that I've ever had. 3 and above were fine. The 2's lost their extra condition and I assumed that negatively affected rebreeding.