Corn Growers and Grass Farmers

[apical meristem]

People who are grass farmers think that by grazing they are detatching themselves from the price of corn. Acutally though, this is not so. Fertilizer follows the price of corn and not the price of natural gas. If ammonia or urea (N) followed natural gas, fertilizer would be cheap. (Nitrogen is synthesized from natural gas.) Obviously last time I checked the price of N it was not cheap. So the cost of any fertilized forage should follow the price of corn.

 

[agmantoo]

apical meristem
People who are grass farmers and graze cattle and understand that it is the input costs that leave the pockets bare and want to make a profit try to determine how to offset those input expenses. Chicken litter instead of chemical fertilizer, year round grazing instead of hay production, producing what your own farm is capable of producing, no dependence on outside labor, efficient and productive livestock and minimum, if any, debt do not incurred the expense you reference. IMO, if it were not for government subsidies other farmers would also get a control on expenses. Most farmers work their a$$ off and have little left after paying all the bills other than worry.

 

[apical meristem]

Chicken litter instead of chemical fertilizer

Chicken litter goes up with the cost of chemical fertilizer and feed.

year round grazing instead of hay production

Year round grazing either requires fertilizer (N dependent and dependent of the price of corn) or a lower stocking rate, or if you are a mob grazer, more labor.

If you do not fertilize or at least put a higher priority on animal performance based on what is available rather than prioritizing grass production, I would suggest you are a Grass Manager and Animal Steward rather than a Grass Farmer.
It is just the Grass Farmer tagline and what it implies that I am after. So instead ranchers can be Grass Managers and Animal Stewards, who manage the swath of their grass and cull their animals based on the ability to convert grass to meat instead of maximizing grass production.

 

[highgrit]

Corn growers are costing me big time around here. I guess I'am going in the hay business now. The gentleman I was buying hay from put a pivot in and is planning on growing corn. He sold 7 to 9 hundred rolls of hay per year to the cattlemen for a fair price. I guess money goes where money is. And I'am sure farm subsidies are involved here big time. :nod:

 

[kjonesel]

2011 saw a large number of pastures and hay fields go into row crop production. Thought they know better my brothers have put corn on ground that used to be in pasture and have done it for seven straight years. Last fall they filled in waterways with rip-rap. It made me sick because they were named conservation farmers of the year a few years back. Now when I see who the conservation farmer of the year named it holds little merit for me.

 

[apical meristem]

Of course it is ethanol that has used up so much of the corn to take ending corn stocks to low levels, pushing up prices. Some interesting news though, the amount of ethanol produced has seemed to top out. And, sooner or later corn could have more competition in the ethanol conversion process. Natural gas can be used as part of the renewable fuel standard to be converted into ethanol. Either that, or LNG could be used directly as a fuel source and is compelling with the price of NG. It will take time though. That is the good news. The bad news is that export demand from China for soybeans may pick up in the next few years. It will be enteresting to see what what does to soy ending stocks and the competition for planted acres.

 

[TexasBred]

People who are grass farmers think that by grazing they are detatching themselves from the price of corn. Acutally though, this is not so. Fertilizer follows the price of corn and not the price of natural gas. If ammonia or urea (N) followed natural gas, fertilizer would be cheap. (Nitrogen is synthesized from natural gas.) Obviously last time I checked the price of N it was not cheap. So the cost of any fertilized forage should follow the price of corn.

Do some reading on the production of anhydrous ammonia. There is much more involved than the simple cost of natural gas at the wellhead. It takes a considerable amount of natural gas to produce the anhydrous, and it has to be compressed, delivered, go thru the manufacturing process and then delivered to the distributor who sells it to you.

 

[AllForage]

Not all graziers fertilize with commercial fertilizers. So it does not apply to me.

 

[apical meristem]

People who are grass farmers think that by grazing they are detatching themselves from the price of corn. Acutally though, this is not so. Fertilizer follows the price of corn and not the price of natural gas. If ammonia or urea (N) followed natural gas, fertilizer would be cheap. (Nitrogen is synthesized from natural gas.) Obviously last time I checked the price of N it was not cheap. So the cost of any fertilized forage should follow the price of corn.

Do some reading on the production of anhydrous ammonia. There is much more involved than the simple cost of natural gas at the wellhead. It takes a considerable amount of natural gas to produce the anhydrous, and it has to be compressed, delivered, go thru the manufacturing process and then delivered to the distributor who sells it to you.

It's called the Haber Process. Now do some reasearch on the price of corn, price of natural gas, and the price of the source of N of your choice. It follows corn*.

*Or whichever is "high". If natural gas was high, anhydrous would be high. But if corn was low and NG was where it is today, anhydrous should be down to 200-300/ton if not less.

 

[jedstivers]

Did all of y'all that were buying corn for less than cost of production a few years ago think about how it was grown and the farmer was able to stay in business? What about the gas and Diesle you burn? Think about what that is subsidized with.

 

[1wlimo]

There should be no difference in the basic approach to growing their crop no matter who they are corn or grass farmer.

The method may be different between crops, but also between areas and farmers.

Input prices are not limited to commodity and input costs. They are also subject to futures (the city), political (at home and abroad), and subside. There is also the fact that there are no so few supplier companies they can push the prices up.

 

[JustSimmental]

I agree Agmantoo. The difference here is that those of us that raise cattle only have been pushing our pencils for years with no subsidy for our products and there is no need. These farmers have been on the dole so long they think it's normal. They don't watch expenses like we do because they have Uncle Sam holding their hand.

apical meristem
People who are grass farmers and graze cattle and understand that it is the input costs that leave the pockets bare and want to make a profit try to determine how to offset those input expenses. Chicken litter instead of chemical fertilizer, year round grazing instead of hay production, producing what your own farm is capable of producing, no dependence on outside labor, efficient and productive livestock and minimum, if any, debt do not incurred the expense you reference. IMO, if it were not for government subsidies other farmers would also get a control on expenses. Most farmers work their a$$ off and have little left after paying all the bills other than worry.

 

[AllForage]

Definition of Grass Farmer from USDA's sustainable agriculture site

Grass-based production relies on pasture or rangeland to supply the protein and energy requirements of livestock. Grazing and forage feeding replace high grain diets, close confinement and feedlot-finishing during most or all of an animal's lifetime. The producer focuses on pasture plant and soil management, and proper stocking density and rotational grazing. "An acceptable level of production can be attained as the ecological connections between ruminants, the soil, and the pasture plants is naturally maintained… Pasture-based animal agriculture promotes environmental stewardship and community development owing to the following management practices:

Use of off-farm inputs, such as diesel, fertilizer, and purchased feed, are minimized.
Use of toxic substances, such as herbicides and soluble fertilizers, is minimized or sometimes eliminated.
Limited tillage and use of perennial pastures, which store carbon in the soil while building soil organic matter, conserves soil.
Water and energy resources are conserved through monitoring and appropriate technologies, such as irrigation monitoring, solar and wind technologies, and biofuel development and use, where applicable.
Proper plant and animal genetics, such as locally-adapted pasture grasses and low-maintenance animals, are selected.
Planned grazing systems that favor grass growth contribute to biological diversity.
Marketing food to local communities, reducing the distance food travels from farm to plate, provisions the community with better, fresher food.
The development of local processing plants is fostered, which adds value to local animal products while providing employment and economic development.
A management philosophy is developed that values health in people, animals, plants, and soil." Lee Rinehart, Pasture, Rangeland, and Grazing Management. ATTRA - National Sustainable Agriculture Information Service, 2006. Available at ATTRA Website: http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/past_ran ... html#final (8/23/07)]

 

[AllForage]

I don't see anything about maximizing animal production or having to use urea on pastures to be a "Grass Farmer"

Agamantoo has matched his genetics (phenotype) to his climate and added grass management to make one a helluva operation. It is too bad you are so narrow minded as to think year round grazing is not possible without outside inputs.

One who chooses to facilitate an increase in organic matter, soil biological activity, dung beetles, and sward diversity will be rewarded in the long run as the neighbor keeps buying expensive inputs and then complains at the coffee shop.

 

[terra8186]

Its easy to convert from a grass grower to a corn grower if you can make over $500 per acre growing corn. I have been ripping out fence rows, cutting down big trees that shade the fields, and clearing brush all winter.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Chicken litter instead of chemical fertilizer

Chicken litter goes up with the cost of chemical fertilizer and feed.

year round grazing instead of hay production

Year round grazing either requires fertilizer (N dependent and dependent of the price of corn) or a lower stocking rate, or if you are a mob grazer, more labor.

If you do not fertilize or at least put a higher priority on animal performance based on what is available rather than prioritizing grass production, I would suggest you are a Grass Manager and Animal Steward rather than a Grass Farmer.

:bs: That's a load of crap. There's really no need for your insistence on applying N-based fertilizer in such operations with proper management practices that have cattle deposit manure in such rotational or MIG practices. Cattle manure itself is high in N, so what's your point in the "need" to apply more? Year-round grazing is the most natural form of grazing you can imagine, and unless there's some unreasonable and irresponsible management practices going on that you haven't made us aware of, there's no use for more fertilizer in such practices, if any at all.

You are only a "Grass Manager and Animal Steward" when you are only managing for better producing animals, not grass. You seem to be stuck on the conventional ways of managing pastures and thus have to come out with this mentality instead of opening your eyes to what's really going on.

It is just the Grass Farmer tagline and what it implies that I am after. So instead ranchers can be Grass Managers and Animal Stewards, who manage the swath of their grass and cull their animals based on the ability to convert grass to meat instead of maximizing grass production.

And see, that's what I mean about conventional ways of managing pasture. Grass farmers, at least most that I've come to know from reading the various posts on here, are not your typical conventional "grass managers and animal stewards." They do the pencil-pushing and number-punching to make sure their operation is NOT relying on pesticides, fertilizers, fuel and all those other inputs that make a producer a high-cost producer rather than a low-cost one. Because that's what being a grass farmer is all about. AllForage explained that part of being a low-cost producer pretty darned well for you.

 

[shaz]

People who are grass farmers think that by grazing they are detatching themselves from the price of corn. Acutally though, this is not so. Fertilizer follows the price of corn and not the price of natural gas. If ammonia or urea (N) followed natural gas, fertilizer would be cheap. (Nitrogen is synthesized from natural gas.) Obviously last time I checked the price of N it was not cheap. So the cost of any fertilized forage should follow the price of corn.

So what's your point?
I use litter and the price has nothing to do with corn. The guy with the broiler houses has to get rid of it and he knows what the locals will pay. He can't truck it 10 more miles for another $1 per ton.

 

[Kingfisher]

Corn growers are costing me big time around here. I guess I'am going in the hay business now. The gentleman I was buying hay from put a pivot in and is planning on growing corn. He sold 7 to 9 hundred rolls of hay per year to the cattlemen for a fair price. I guess money goes where money is. And I'am sure farm subsidies are involved here big time. :nod:

How did that work out for him the past year or so....?