Clean Up Bull

[sstterry]

It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html

 

[CattleMan1920]

It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html

Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.

 

[Bright Raven]

Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.

Great post. James, I don't have a clean up bull. I keep very good records of the bull I use and the date I AI service. I always pull the straw after AI to confirm it with my records. Thus, I know the sire of each calf. What I tell the buyer is that he or she is encouraged to DNA the calf back to the Sire. If the calf does not test back to the Sire, I will refund the money and reimburse expenses.

I guess the only risk I have is if the Cane of semen comes to me mishandled or mislabeled. I think that is remote.

 

[Ky hills]

It is alive and well today. They will sell one average ET bull for a big pre arranged price then those who buy his brothers for 10,000 think they got a real bargain.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html

Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.

I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't know how many of you are familiar with this story, but it is an interesting read, it reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Industry in the 1630's.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-29-8702250458-story.html

Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.

I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.

You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.

 

[Ky hills]

Really good story, thank you for sharing it on this thread. I will not mention any names on here, but I know of a breeder that will claim to have calves from, let's call it "XYZ Bull", and advertise those progeny, but will not DNA test the calves for parentage. I know, and they know, that there is absolutely no way, they could have such a calf on the ground yet, because the bull is so new, but people buy them. I see it like someone wearing a fake Rolex, they might be happy with that Rolex, it might look just like a real one, but it's anything but a Rolex. The real daddy to the progeny is a cleanup bull. They will say "this is a son of President", and he is registered as such, but there is not parentage proven via DNA" Until that calf is tested, he could be from any sire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be the "moral police" of the cattle business, but we DNA test every single animal for parentage and have done so for several years back. When I hear someone claim that they have a calf from "XYZ bull" and I look on AAA and see zero genetic progeny so far for that bull, and they do not test the calf, how can I be sure it's the real deal?

Take SAV Elation 7899, AAA#: 18911198 for example. I'm nearly certain SAV and Square B have calves on the ground and others may as well. We have two Elation calves due in late Feb, early March. Right now it shows ZERO genetic progeny on the ground, but I assure you somewhere in the U.S. someone is saying they have an Elation calf on the ground. If so, test them and prove it.

I think for the improvement of the AAA moving forward, every animal registered moving forward should have BOTH the Angus Source DNA test, and the genetic bundle (to make sure the animal is free of recessives). I know that many will tell me to shut up, but it will only add to the legitimacy of your business as a breeder of registered Angus.

I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.

You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.

I absolutely agree with you on that. That is my philosophy too, whenever I sell something I want to represent it as honestly as I know. In years past I had registered Charolais, that was back before DNA and a lot of the now standard practices of semen checks and pelvic measurements were done. In the couple instances where a bull was infertile or a heifer didn't get bred. I tried to make the situation as right as I could. In more recent years since I have had a few registered Angus Bulls to sell, I have had them DNA tested to be sure they were free from the known genetic defects, and had BSE done to give both the buyers and me peace of mind that they were getting what they expected. I have actually heard several registered folks say that the carrier animals were no big deal, just sell them as commercial. In my mind if a commercial farmer were to buy some nice looking cows that unbeknownst to him were carriers and he bred them to a carrier bull, it could be disastrous for that farmer.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.

You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.

I absolutely agree with you on that. That is my philosophy too, whenever I sell something I want to represent it as honestly as I know. In years past I had registered Charolais, that was back before DNA and a lot of the now standard practices of semen checks and pelvic measurements were done. In the couple instances where a bull was infertile or a heifer didn't get bred. I tried to make the situation as right as I could. In more recent years since I have had a few registered Angus Bulls to sell, I have had them DNA tested to be sure they were free from the known genetic defects, and had BSE done to give both the buyers and me peace of mind that they were getting what they expected. I have actually heard several registered folks say that the carrier animals were no big deal, just sell them as commercial. In my mind if a commercial farmer were to buy some nice looking cows that unbeknownst to him were carriers and he bred them to a carrier bull, it could be disastrous for that farmer.

I applaud you for your integrity. I think it's wrong to sell an animal that you know has problems. A commercial producer I know had multiple birth defects surface in his herd last year and he said he had not seen it happen before, which leads me to point the finger at the bulls he is using, which I am nearly certain have had no DNA testing. I think he lost 7-8 calves. I don't know about most producers, but I would have a serious issue with losses like that. He shrugged it off. I view that like throwing money out the truck window.

Recently, a prospective buyer saw a bull he liked, and said "I will take him, let's load him up" I said "no". He wanted to take him, but the bull had not received a breeding soundness exam yet. He said "I don't care, I trust you, he looks good" I said "What if he's sterile and you miss your breeding window?" Then I said "you won't be too happy with me or the bull if he's not getting your gals settled" He agreed to wait, and the bull passed with excellent results.

I think that if you are selling a bull to ANY producer it should be about full disclosure, no surprises. It makes the transaction a very good experience for all parties involved. If a bull develops issues, and they are legitimate, not neglect, then the breeder should do everything they can to remedy the situation ASAP! You will not be successful if your clients are not doing well. Plain and simple.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I thought he was just high! :lol: $10000 for clean up on the few he has? No way that would ever pay

I am cheap. A bull would have to defecate gold bricks before I would pay $10,000 for him.

You know, the bull that laids golden turds.

I have a friend in GA that runs in the Registered Herford Show Circuit and he is always talking about Bulls and Semen in the multiple Thousands of Dollars. He knows that I think they are crazy. Some of those numbers are that I will spend $25k at your sale and you spend $20k at my sale and it is all done with a "wink and a nod". The Herford Association has been that way for the last 40 years.

I overheard a seedstock man last spring, drowning in his tears because an operation that he spent $35K at, never bid on his sale like he promised.

Play with fire, you're going to get burned!

 

[NEFarmwife]

I have not been in agreement with a statement or two that you have made, but I think you do have a valid point in my opinion about the DNA testing. I have long suspected that there have been many cases of mistaken parentage. Hopefully most are honest mistakes and not on purpose. I had a situation a few years ago when AI breeding. We had bred some cows to Hoover Dam, and happened to have real nice bull calf that was born on the very day of the AI due date, the other calves had come a few days earlier. The herd bull had been turned around a week after AI. When we had the calves up in the barn being weaned the AI tech happened to be there and commented about the calf and how much more thick made he was then some of the other calves. We all took him to be a Hoover Dam. That was the time that the AM NH recessives were happening so we sent in to have all the calves tested and parentage dna too. We had purchased the AI certificates for Hoover Dam. When the results came back Hoover Dam was not the sire. The calf was out of our son of SAV Bismarck out of a Mytty In Focus daughter. I thought at that time I that that sort of thing probably happens frequently and people never catch it.

You made an honest mistake, but there are breeders out there passing off cattle that are not what they appear. They know they can get away with it because the bulls or heifers are headed to a commercial operation or someone who is not a member of Angus Association and will never register the animal. I think no matter whether you are a commercial guy or gal, or a registered operation that you should get EXACTLY what you are paying for on the registration.

I absolutely agree with you on that. That is my philosophy too, whenever I sell something I want to represent it as honestly as I know. In years past I had registered Charolais, that was back before DNA and a lot of the now standard practices of semen checks and pelvic measurements were done. In the couple instances where a bull was infertile or a heifer didn't get bred. I tried to make the situation as right as I could. In more recent years since I have had a few registered Angus Bulls to sell, I have had them DNA tested to be sure they were free from the known genetic defects, and had BSE done to give both the buyers and me peace of mind that they were getting what they expected. I have actually heard several registered folks say that the carrier animals were no big deal, just sell them as commercial. In my mind if a commercial farmer were to buy some nice looking cows that unbeknownst to him were carriers and he bred them to a carrier bull, it could be disastrous for that farmer.

With our PB's, anything that is a potential carrier gets tested against it to be cleared of. We haven't had to cull yet because of this but I imagine we will when we test the Epic calves this spring. We also do genomics and parentage. A few can't verify the mother since there isn't data on them (as they were purchased) but over time, we should have all our females samples.

We cut two of three bulls this past year because they either looked too feminine or didn't like the way they walked. Someone said "Why cut him, someone will buy him?" and my husband said "No one is buying that under my name!"

One thing that I really struggle with when purchasing PB angus and have gotten burned on... the feet. Do not trim your feet and then pitch that you cull for that reason. You're dishonest.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I overheard a seedstock man last spring, drowning in his tears because an operation that he spent $35K at, never bid on his sale like he promised.

I have been a repeat buyer with two seed stock operations. The first one gave me a private treaty deal on the initlal bull, then increased prices and misrepresented animals. I moved on...

If you can't trust a big time seed stock guy, who can you trust ??? :cboy:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not all PB breeders are dishonest.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Not all PB breeders are dishonest.

I'd say very few are flat out dishonest. Too much on the line.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Not all PB breeders are dishonest.

I'd say very few are flat out dishonest. Too much on the line.

Must be poor judgement or bad luck on my part. :nod:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Not all PB breeders are dishonest.

I'd say very few are flat out dishonest. Too much on the line.

Must be poor judgement or bad luck on my part. :nod:

I've worked directly with 3 different registered breeders, 2 in KY and 1 here in TN and I've had nothing but positive interactions.

Must be good luck on my part.

 

[Silver]

Just like hunters. Only takes one or two to give them all a bad name.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Reputation is everything to a breeder/producer. Pizz one customer off and EVERYONE knows about it. If someone just "suggests" that they might be unhappy with a purchase, I immediately offer to take it back. One sale is not worth your reputation.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

And No matter how good a breeders cattle are, his personality and people skills mean everything...some folks get set on fire to get in the seedstock business...all the while forgetting their a azz hole................never thought about that though, might be why I'm commercial,I can sell mine regardless.. :cowboy:

 

[CattleMan1920]

Here is what we do here at *************. I think that it works because a bull has never been brought back to us.

• Every bull is Angus Source or HD50K test WITH Genetic bundle testing
  Buyers get to see the sire (Unless AI) and dam, both of which are tested with the Angus Source or HD50K
  Buyers get to see siblings of the bull, male and female
  Bulls are semen tested and given a complete exam before leaving here
  We never rush the buyer
  We go over the EPD's and discuss what the buyer's needs are in a bull (i.e. discuss THEIR herd)
  The price quoted is the price, we don't negotiate, up or down. What we initially discussed is the price, no surprises
  We have had multiple buyers call on the same day for the same bull. First come, first serve. We don't sell the bull out from under you. Whoever is motivated enough to get out and see the bull or bulls ASAP gets the bull.
  Bulls aren't viewed in a high-stress sales ring, they are viewed in the pasture.

There are probably some things that I forgot, but that's about it. I do agree with ALACOWMAN. who wants to deal with a horse's you know what? For example, we have bought cattle from Stone Gate in the past and Charles Cannon is a total gentleman, always tips his cowboy hat in the presence of my wife, and is humble, even though he has every reason to feel like a high roller. That is a big reason we have worked with him for so long, that and the fact that their cattle are excellent.

I also think it's very important to follow up with your buyer. If you are confident about what you produce that shouldn't be an issue. It's a very rewarding feeling when you hear success stories from your clients. It's been my experience that the buyer is going on a lot of faith that you are steering he or she in the right direction, that has to be respected.

Lastly, the door swings both ways, if a buyer is a jerk and we feel or know for a fact that they are abusive to their animals, then our bulls stay put until the right buyer comes along. We put too much work into our animals to see them trashed by someone that doesn't give a crap. There are plenty of buyers that treat them well and take care of their investment, and it's only a matter of time before they call. That's probably not every seedstock producer's policy, but it's served us, and our animals well.

 

[Ky hills]

I enjoyed the registered cattle business for the most part, had Charolais in the late 80's through most of the 90's. Got meet and talk with a lot of farmers when buying and selling cattle. It was usually positive but occasionally there were situations that I didn't like. Some folks would try to get me to say things against my competition which I never viewed as competition. I had a policy not to say negative things and not to speculate on rumors. Occasionally somebody would say well I can get a bigger bull at so and so priced cheaper than yours. The reality was that they were trying to get me to come down, and I knew for a fact that the more established outfit priced their cattle more than mine. Sometimes folks would immediately tell me how small or whatever description my cattle were and then say but I will give you x amount like they were doing me a favor. You run into some interesting and irritating situations.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

The way I see it,our competition is poultry and hogs".......