Civil war

[ALACOWMAN]

theres a limestone mine up the road from here, that hasnt been used in a few years,,, they reopened it to haul gravel for TVA..... but ran into some redtape over a endangerd snail :shock: let see here, we can't make our live's a little easier, and create some job's because of a dam snail

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well there it is in a nutshell!

Our lifestyle is under attack from multiple front's. The irony is we are allowing it.
We have sat on our butt's and let unelected bureaucrats govern us.

 

[chrisy]

theres a limestone mine up the road from here, that hasnt been used in a few years,,, they reopened it to haul gravel for TVA..... but ran into some redtape over a endangerd snail :shock: let see here, we can't make our live's a little easier, and create some job's because of a dam snail

your is a dam snail ours was a dam spider that we didn't get Euro Disney here, go figure, how many jobs would that have made, and how much revenue this Country could have had over the past 20 years, all for a flipping SPIDER.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

theres a limestone mine up the road from here, that hasnt been used in a few years,,, they reopened it to haul gravel for TVA..... but ran into some redtape over a endangerd snail :shock: let see here, we can't make our live's a little easier, and create some job's because of a dam snail

your is a dam snail ours was a dam spider that we didn't get Euro Disney here, go figure, how many jobs would that have made, and how much revenue this Country could have had over the past 20 years, all for a flipping SPIDER.

Don't forget the spotted owl and the timber business.

 

[ChrisB]

CB - I'm 100% with you on the EPA being out of control. But just last week I heard 2 different sources saying we had an excess of gas and we were running out of storage. Both times I only caught part of the story, so they may have been talking about Natural gas? Anyway I tried to find the articles to read them and I stumbled onto this:

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=29&t=6

The following are the newest refineries currently operating in the United States:

Year Built First Operated Location Original Owner Original Capacity Current Owner 2011 Capacity Type
2008 2008 Douglas, WY Interline Resources 3,000 Garco Energy 3,600 Simple
1998 1998 Atmore, AL Goodway 4,100 Goodway 4,100 Simple
1993 1993 Valdez, AK Petro Star 26,300 Petro Star 55,000 Simple
1991 1992 Eagle Springs, NV Petro Source 7,000 Foreland 2,000 Simple
1986 1987 North Pole, AK Petro Star 6,700 Petro Star 19,700 Simple
1985 1986 Anchorage, AK ARCO 12,000 ConocoPhillips 15,000 Simple
1981 1982 Thomas, OK OK Refining 10,700 Ventura 12,000 Simple
1979 1980 Wilmington, CA Huntway 5,400 Valero 6,300 Simple
1978 1979 Vicksburg, MS Ergon 10,000 Ergon 23,000 Simple
1978 1979 North Slope, AK ARCO 13,000 BP Exp AK 12,780 Simple
1978 1978 North Pole, AK Earth Resources 22,600 Flint Hills 219,500 Simple
1977 1978 Lake Charles, LA Calcasieu 6,500 Calcasieu 78,000 Simple
1976 1977 Garyville, LA Marathon 200,000 Marathon 464,000 Complex
1976 1977 Krotz Springs, LA Gold King 5,000 Alon 80,000 Complex
1975 1975 Corpus Christi, TX Saber 15,000 Valero 142,000 Complex
1967 1967 Good Hope, LA Kirby Industries 6,500 Valero 205,000 Complex

I know that is really hard to read and my link didn't work. But are these diferent types of refineries? Or are they expansions of existing refineries and the Energy Dept. is calling them new?

But regardless, I did read several places that stated that the lack of refineries really wasn't an issue other than politically. The existing refineries have expanded and become more efficient at a pace that has kept up with demand.

It is like the decrease in the number of farms hasn't yielded a lack of food. The remaining farms are more efficient and larger.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

The Progressive's are absolutely destroying our way of life!

Well there it is in a nutshell!

think i'll even cancel my subscription to '''progressive'' farmer now

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB - I'm 100% with you on the EPA being out of control. But just last week I heard 2 different sources saying we had an excess of gas and we were running out of storage. Both times I only caught part of the story, so they may have been talking about Natural gas? Anyway I tried to find the articles to read them and I stumbled onto this:

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=29&t=6

The following are the newest refineries currently operating in the United States:

Year Built First Operated Location Original Owner Original Capacity Current Owner 2011 Capacity Type
2008 2008 Douglas, WY Interline Resources 3,000 Garco Energy 3,600 Simple
1998 1998 Atmore, AL Goodway 4,100 Goodway 4,100 Simple
1993 1993 Valdez, AK Petro Star 26,300 Petro Star 55,000 Simple
1991 1992 Eagle Springs, NV Petro Source 7,000 Foreland 2,000 Simple
1986 1987 North Pole, AK Petro Star 6,700 Petro Star 19,700 Simple
1985 1986 Anchorage, AK ARCO 12,000 ConocoPhillips 15,000 Simple
1981 1982 Thomas, OK OK Refining 10,700 Ventura 12,000 Simple
1979 1980 Wilmington, CA Huntway 5,400 Valero 6,300 Simple
1978 1979 Vicksburg, MS Ergon 10,000 Ergon 23,000 Simple
1978 1979 North Slope, AK ARCO 13,000 BP Exp AK 12,780 Simple
1978 1978 North Pole, AK Earth Resources 22,600 Flint Hills 219,500 Simple
1977 1978 Lake Charles, LA Calcasieu 6,500 Calcasieu 78,000 Simple
1976 1977 Garyville, LA Marathon 200,000 Marathon 464,000 Complex
1976 1977 Krotz Springs, LA Gold King 5,000 Alon 80,000 Complex
1975 1975 Corpus Christi, TX Saber 15,000 Valero 142,000 Complex
1967 1967 Good Hope, LA Kirby Industries 6,500 Valero 205,000 Complex

I know that is really hard to read and my link didn't work. But are these diferent types of refineries? Or are they expansions of existing refineries and the Energy Dept. is calling them new?

But regardless, I did read several places that stated that the lack of refineries really wasn't an issue other than politically. The existing refineries have expanded and become more efficient at a pace that has kept up with demand.

It is like the decrease in the number of farms hasn't yielded a lack of food. The remaining farms are more efficient and larger.

I will let you read this
http://205.254.135.7/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=29&t=6

It is a joke if they are not running 250,000 bpd complex refinery as the smaller topping simple refineries have to ship sell a lot of there products to more complex refiner's for futher processing

Topping Refineries are the smallest and least complex. They usually have only an atmospheric distillation tower and maybe a vacuum distillation tower. Because the refineries lack the most sophisticated refining equipment, the type of products they can produce is somewhat limited. The quality of the incoming oil effects what the refinery can produce.


Complex Refineries are the largest and use the most technologically advanced refining equipment and machinery. With the ability to 'crack' the heavier oil they can ultimately produce more valuable, lighter petroleum products such as gasoline for cars. Almost 100% of the oil that came in is refinable by a complex refinery.

:

 

[Caustic Burno]

I didn't give you a very good explanation of refineries.

A simple refinery can make Naphtha, Kerosene, Diesel, Asphalt type product's and some Straight run gasoline.
Most of these are not a useable product's until processed in a more complex refinery.
A simple refinery does not have the ability to improve octane usually or the equipmnet (process units) to desulferize to meet EPA suphur spec's.
A simple refinery 42 gallon's to barrel come in and usually depending on the equipment 40 to 41 gallon's come out.


A complex refinery for every 42 gallon's that come in 44 gallons of product leave and almost 100% of the barrel is convertable to a gallon of gasoline. A complex refinery has the ability to convert gasoil, diesel, kerosene to gasoline through a series of catalytic process units under varying pressure's up to 3000 psi that rearange the molecular structure of a hydrocarbon molecule while increase the octane and increase the volume. We have some amazing technology.

I failed to mention a simple refinery produces 12 gallon's of gasoline per barrel where a complex produces 39 gallons per barrel.

I hope this is a little better explanation

 

[houstoncutter]

Cant believe I am gonna take the EPA's side in a discussion, but here goes. Is it out of control yes, is it still needed yes. Does anyone really believe corporate America is gonna police their actions. case in point BP....not only have they been playing fast and loose in Texas City refinery, but does anyone remember a rather large oil spill... When a corporation gets out of control, the only people to make a difference in their way of thinking is the EPA..

Caustic has fished some of the very same waters I have in the Galveston bay complex. Much of this water was so fowl in the 50's and 60's it was unfishable...some still is...As a kid living south of the Humble refinery we would get crap dumped on us from the flares..4 or 5 times a week. Go look at current oil exploration or gas site...if the well isnt brought in, in most cases within a year the land looks as it did before the drilling,,,or better. Of course I can show you sites in Liberty county and Chambers county that were explored in the 50' and 60's and these drill sites still look like a blight on the land!

Is the EPA out of control, sure it is, because its ran by political hacks from both parties....As far the EPA putting all of the company"s out of business.... BS :bs: :bs: The inability or will to enforce Anti-Trust Laws has leads us to this lean mean corporate America. If anyone doubts that, lets look at the example Of TMobile and AT&T. It was a done deal merger, then Uncle Sam said hold on a minute. Anti-trust issues.......end of merger. The same could have been done in many of the oil companies, and lets not forget the meat packing companys...What are we down to now? 2? 3?or grain companies, or does ADM own em all. :hide: :hide:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Cant believe I am gonna take the EPA's side in a discussion, but here goes. Is it out of control yes, is it still needed yes. Does anyone really believe corporate America is gonna police their actions. case in point BP....not only have they been playing fast and loose in Texas City refinery, but does anyone remember a rather large oil spill... When a corporation gets out of control, the only people to make a difference in their way of thinking is the EPA..

Caustic has fished some of the very same waters I have in the Galveston bay complex. Much of this water was so fowl in the 50's and 60's it was unfishable...some still is...As a kid living south of the Humble refinery we would get crap dumped on us from the flares..4 or 5 times a week. Go look at current oil exploration or gas site...if the well isnt brought in, in most cases within a year the land looks as it did before the drilling,,,or better. Of course I can show you sites in Liberty county and Chambers county that were explored in the 50' and 60's and these drill sites still look like a blight on the land!

Is the EPA out of control, sure it is, because its ran by political hacks from both parties....As far the EPA putting all of the company"s out of business.... BS :bs: :bs: The inability or will to enforce Anti-Trust Laws has leads us to this lean mean corporate America. If anyone doubts that, lets look at the example Of TMobile and AT&T. It was a done deal merger, then Uncle Sam said hold on a minute. Anti-trust issues.......end of merger. The same could have been done in many of the oil companies, and lets not forget the meat packing companys...What are we down to now? 2? 3?or grain companies, or does ADM own em all. :hide: :hide:

I have to call :bs: the city of Dallas along with the other cities dumping raw sewage in the Trinty is the largest single polluter of the Galveston Bay complex . You site anti trust most of the American companies are gone.
Secondly if you read I said some regulation was needed but not the over zealous gestapo tactic's of the day and I dealt with the yahoo's for thirty+ years. Secondly when the refineries were built they were in the middle of nowhere you as well as a lot of people moved next to them to enjoy the milk and honey lifestyle the provided for the communities that built up around them. If they are so horrible why don't they leave, I will tell you because they enjoy the lifestyle they provide for their families. Why has the Houston area virtually missed the recession because of all the petro chemical complexes located on the Houston Ship Channel. You live in one of the few areas of the country still building new homes.
Want to talk about fishing I caught way more trout and red's in the 60's than I have ever caught in the 90's.
It was nothing to make 200 dollars a day selling trout for a dollar a pound when I had a commercial license and I was catching them on a rod and reel. This was when commercial fishermen made a living with gill net's that are have been illegal for the last twenty years. You couldn't find 200 pounds a fish a day on a regular day to catch now if your life depended on it. Why the refineries have cleaned up but the population has exploded so where do you think all the shyt polluting the bay is coming from, it is coming from me and you. Many of the city rain water system's dump directly into the bay. You may have bought into European Socialism I happen to still enjoy the American Capitalism and American manufacturing job's supplying American families.
Refining, Nuclear Power Plant's, Hydro Electric, Coal are just like cow shyt they smell like money.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

houston,

EPA is way to overboard in many areas. If regulations are necessary, the EPA's role should be to monitor pollution, report to congress and CONGRESS PASS THE LAWS as it was designed to do.

Otherwise, you have a willy nilly agency doing what your President is doing now- writing laws without congress. That is not a republic. It is illegal and completely wrong.

If the EPA is not a danger to anyone with property or business, explain this:

The EPA's order to the Sacketts alleged that their land was a wetland subject to federal Clean Water Act jurisdiction and that the Sacketts violated the act by adding fill to the land without a federal permit. The EPA threatened a penalty of $32,500 (now $37,500) for each day that the Sacketts did not comply with the order. The EPA refused the Sacketts a hearing. The Sacketts sued. The federal district court dismissed the lawsuit on the ground that the Clean Water Act barred judicial review of an order before the EPA chooses to bring an action in court to enforce it. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit affirmed. The Supreme Court took the case.

The EPA's lawyer told the Supreme Court it should not be concerned about EPA's heavy-handedness because the Sacketts could have sought a federal permit before they began to build their house. Several of the justices, including Justice Elena Kagan, noted the "weirdness" of that response, which suggested that every landowner should pre-emptively apply for a federal permit that they might not need in the hope of avoiding the Sacketts' fate.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... &thepage=1

$37,500 a day! If you have that kind of money laying around, great for you. But it would kill any small business and that is just fill dirt for a piece of land to fit a home. What are they doing to our companies? What are you going to do when they regulate dust or methane from your cattle? Fire your congressman and see what happens, nothing.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... /?page=all

The EPA's newly proposed greenhouse gas emission standards for coal-fired power plants will be finalized by the Obama administration, win or lose, after the November election.

Though the proposed standards leave alone existing coal-fired power plants, they effectively prohibit the construction of new plants by establishing an impossible-to-meet emissions standard.

But don't get the idea that the EPA threw the coal industry a bone by omitting existing coal-fired plants, as the agency has already issued two regulations - the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule and the Mercury Air Toxics Standard - that will prematurely retire about 20 percent of existing coal-fired plants over the next few years.

The supposed scientific grounds for the new EPA greenhouse gas emissions is global warming. But even if you believe that man-made emissions are changing climate for the worse, there are two realities that expose the EPA's moves as purely political.

First, if all U.S. coal plant emissions were to stop today, the average global temperature might be reduced over the next 90 years by, at most, an insignificant 0.15 degrees Celsius, according to United Nations-approved models. EPA administrator Lisa P. Jackson essentially admitted to this futility in a July 2009 Senate hearing.

Next, as the United States reduces its greenhouse gas emissions, the rest of the world, especially China, has its emissions pedal to the metal. It has been estimated that by 2035 China will become the all-time leading emitter of greenhouse gases. That is, in the space of about 45 years, China will have emitted more greenhouse gases than the United States has in 150 years.

It ought to shock the conscience that for no scientific reason or legal justification at all, a single regulatory agency can unilaterally kill off a multibillion-dollar industry that supplies more than 40 percent of the nation's electricity - and get away scot-free.

There is this as well: http://reason.org/blog/show/two-example ... -overreach

When the proposal was released a in 2010, EPA data that showed Texas' contribution to out-of-state emissions were not high enough for inclusion.

But when the final rule was released in July, Texas found itself included in the program.

The last minute inclusion is based on a hypothetical linkage between Texas emissions and a pollution monitor hundreds of miles away in Granite City, Illinois. The monitor is located half-a-mile from a steel mill, and was placed there specifically to monitor it. In fact, the area meets air quality standards today after the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency and the mill agreed on the installation of pollution controls.

Texas was never given the opportunity to publicly comment on this information because it was not part of the proposed rule, which is when the public has the opportunity to share concerns.

Compliance costs for this rule are estimated at $2.4 billion annually. Texas' will be required to cut emissions by nearly 50 percent under the regulations, which go into effect in January 2012 – less than six months after the rules were released and Texas learned of its inclusion. Not surprisingly, a Texas utility company recently announced it would shut down plants and fire nearly 500 employees as a direct result of the regulation.

 

[houstoncutter]

Cant believe I am gonna take the EPA's side in a discussion, but here goes. Is it out of control yes, is it still needed yes. Does anyone really believe corporate America is gonna police their actions. case in point BP....not only have they been playing fast and loose in Texas City refinery, but does anyone remember a rather large oil spill... When a corporation gets out of control, the only people to make a difference in their way of thinking is the EPA..

Caustic has fished some of the very same waters I have in the Galveston bay complex. Much of this water was so fowl in the 50's and 60's it was unfishable...some still is...As a kid living south of the Humble refinery we would get crap dumped on us from the flares..4 or 5 times a week. Go look at current oil exploration or gas site...if the well isnt brought in, in most cases within a year the land looks as it did before the drilling,,,or better. Of course I can show you sites in Liberty county and Chambers county that were explored in the 50' and 60's and these drill sites still look like a blight on the land!

Is the EPA out of control, sure it is, because its ran by political hacks from both parties....As far the EPA putting all of the company"s out of business.... BS :bs: :bs: The inability or will to enforce Anti-Trust Laws has leads us to this lean mean corporate America. If anyone doubts that, lets look at the example Of TMobile and AT&T. It was a done deal merger, then Uncle Sam said hold on a minute. Anti-trust issues.......end of merger. The same could have been done in many of the oil companies, and lets not forget the meat packing companys...What are we down to now? 2? 3?or grain companies, or does ADM own em all. :hide: :hide:

I have to call :bs: the city of Dallas along with the other cities dumping raw sewage in the Trinty is the largest single polluter of the Galveston Bay complex . You site anti trust most of the American companies are gone.
Secondly if you read I said some regulation was needed but not the over zealous gestapo tactic's of the day and I dealt with the yahoo's for thirty+ years. Secondly when the refineries were built they were in the middle of nowhere you as well as a lot of people moved next to them to enjoy the milk and honey lifestyle the provided for the communities that built up around them. If they are so horrible why don't they leave, I will tell you because they enjoy the lifestyle they provide for their families. Why has the Houston area virtually missed the recession because of all the petro chemical complexes located on the Houston Ship Channel. You live in one of the few areas of the country still building new homes.
Want to talk about fishing I caught way more trout and red's in the 60's than I have ever caught in the 90's.
It was nothing to make 200 dollars a day selling trout for a dollar a pound when I had a commercial license and I was catching them on a rod and reel. This was when commercial fishermen made a living with gill net's that are have been illegal for the last twenty years. You couldn't find 200 pounds a fish a day on a regular day to catch now if your life depended on it. Why the refineries have cleaned up but the population has exploded so where do you think all the shyt polluting the bay is coming from, it is coming from me and you. Many of the city rain water system's dump directly into the bay. You may have bought into European Socialism I happen to still enjoy the American Capitalism and American manufacturing job's supplying American families.
Refining, Nuclear Power Plant's, Hydro Electric, Coal are just like cow shyt they smell like money.

CB,My family was here before Exxon, so they moved in on us. Besides we lived 10 miles away from the plant... You and I both know funny things happen and get burned at 3:30 in the morning at the plants. You are also correct that cities are dumping their supposedly treated sewer into the rivers and bays. Just imagine how bad it would be if you didnt have the EPA looking over their shoulder.

As for Trinity Bay I should have said clean consumable fish. Whats the current limit for people to safely consume? I think its 10 ounces a month, and in some parts of the bay headwaters, no consumption at all.

If you like that smell of unfettered pollution, and money . China awaits you!

Also what are your thoughts concerning the use of the Big Thicket??

 

[Caustic Burno]

HC it is not the refineries that are the problem with the bay, it is the million's of people that have descended on the area to make a decent living for their families. Chambers, Galveston Brazoria, Fort Bend, Montgomery where agricultural manufacturing and refining today they are refining , manufacturing, and a pool of human's. Hwy 146 is a freeway from Dayton to Galveston from Barber's Hill to Galveston you can't tell where one city start's and the other ends. In fifty years we have went fom riding a small 35 car ferry at Morgan's point to an 8 lane suspension bridge to move the people. Interstate 45 two lane from Galveston is now 8 to 10 lanes to Huntsville with out every knowing you left one city or the other. The thing that has cahnged is the population as far as that goes you might as well live in China as it would be less crowded. Land I worked cow's on the Old West Ranch is million dollar homes that you can reach out the window as well as you neighbor and shake hands, the house's are that close together.
Galveston county was rice farming cattle ranching,truck farm's and refineries, the rice farming is gone and the fields replaced with cookie cutter community after community. The truck farms are gone. The big cattle operations are gone and land now sell's by the foot or inch not acres.
Kemah and Seabrook used to be a few fishing shacks today it is million dollar homes and yacht's moored one after the other. Alvin to Rosharon was a few Bohieman Families farming and raising cattle today there are Bass Pro Shop's and Human chicken coop's where millions of geese and ducks used to winter in rice fields.
You must not have a very good memory because Goose Creek, Cedar Bayou, Barber's Hill the whole area was one oil derrick after another to almost touching each other on land and in the bay and that started in the thirties that is why the refineries are there. They built on top of the oil field.
If your family was there before then I will bet a lot of oil company money lined ya'll's pocket's from either royalaties, working or supplying resources for them.
Thirty years ago you would see a boat now and then on the bay might be you and one or two others fishing Dollar Reef, you can't fish it today without almost being able to walk from boat to boat, windsurfers and sailboat's.

Why have so many American's moved from all over the country to the area because of the money the oil industry has provided on top of an almost recession pruff economy. The big migration started in the 70's recession. When other cities and states have been struggling the five counties surrounding the the largest refining complex in the country has continued to boom with good paying American jobs with benefit's because Texas has been business friendly.

To respond to your Big Thicket question drill baby drill oh wait I have a new well about a thousand yards east of the house and another one about that far north along with several new pipelines. Pipelines pay well.
Where do you think the American Oil Boom started it was at Spindletop and in the Big Thicket
The Indian Oil Company(Texaco) got it's start in Sour Lake.

 

[houstoncutter]

Your response on the problem of pollution in the Galveston Bay complex is dead on. Harris County had a population of a little over one million in 1960, by 1990 it was over 3million. So the growth was very explosive as you stated... So it is not a question of whether we have pollution from all these people. ....The question is why did we have all the pollution before the people came... answer, the industrial complexes surrounding the bay!

I think at one time the headwaters of Galveston Bay, had more Super Fund cleanup sites that all the other Super Fund cleanup sites in Texas. Who gave you these clean up sites, Exxon, Crown, Shell, Dupont, Southland Paper,Signal Oil, Sheffield Steel ,and the list goes on for quite a while. Who put their foot on their neck and made them quit....EPA......

As for the Big Thicket, I guess you see no problem with clear cutting it and flooding more area to make more water reserves for the Golden Triangle area?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Your response on the problem of pollution in the Galveston Bay complex is dead on. Harris County had a population of a little over one million in 1960, by 1990 it was over 3million. So the growth was very explosive as you stated... So it is not a question of whether we have pollution from all these people. ....The question is why did we have all the pollution before the people came... answer, the industrial complexes surrounding the bay!

I think at one time the headwaters of Galveston Bay, had more Super Fund cleanup sites that all the other Super Fund cleanup sites in Texas. Who gave you these clean up sites, Exxon, Crown, Shell, Dupont, Southland Paper,Signal Oil, Sheffield Steel ,and the list goes on for quite a while. Who put their foot on their neck and made them quit....EPA......

As for the Big Thicket, I guess you see no problem with clear cutting it and flooding more area to make more water reserves for the Golden Triangle area?

The problem HC is your hypocrisy every dollar made in the Golden Triangle or Houston Galveston Metroplex
directly or indirectly comes from oil and gas or the space program that line mine and your pockets. Oh we don't have the one of them in more.
Most of the pollution came from Jake leg's like you and I, drilling oil wells before the first refinery ever got there. Who ever could rake up enough money to drill was drilling then all over East Texas to the Gulf.
This went on for fifty years, with WWII technology was starting to play a role in our live's.
It was no different than the gold rush to California or Alaska. Oil from a new well drilled could run uncontrolled for week's. The first built refineries were simple stills manly after kerosene and straight run gasoline the rest of the barrel was dumped on the ground or in a ditch. This wasn't done to pollute we didn't know what in the world to do with it. We didn't even know what pollution was. With technology we have learned to recoup 100% of the barrel versus 15% when this all started. I guess we have Ford to blame as we get into our suburban's and super duty's to drive to Mc Donalds.

Again I never stated that we did not need some regulation to operate the industry by as I stated in my first post. I am opposed to regulating us out of business and job's for American's. It wasn't just the EPA either we learned as a we went as a nation.

To your Big Thicket question the Big Thicket doesn't exsist any longer as all but 86,000 acres have been already clear cut and replanted in pine plantation. Several million acres cleared to make paper to wipe our butt's. So if they want to clear cut it again I see no problem.
It actually helps the wildlife and provides it with more food. The pine plantations as they mature reduce wildlife as there is little to eat in them. The Thicket was destroyed in the 70's and 80's after the EPA had came along, it apparently didn't bother them. The only subtropical rainforest in the country destroyed to make paper. Again we learned op's a tree is not a tree, we replaced North America's Ark with another forest that didn't work. So I guess we need to make them come back clear cut all the pine and replant with cedar oak, hickory, black walnut, black cherry, gum, cypress and so on.
That train has left the station. The EPA destroyed the rest of the job's here as there was a sawmill in every town that they regulated out of business. I can cry about the thicket it is not coming back. I would like to see our mills come back for our communities, that is not happening either with the EPA's gestapo boot on our throat.

 

[TexasBred]

CB is the paper mill still in Evadale?? Use to watch hundreds of truck loads of virgin timber go by every day when I was working on a bridge gang just outside of town.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB is the paper mill still in Evadale?? Use to watch hundreds of truck loads of virgin timber go by every day when I was working on a bridge gang just outside of town.

Yep it's still operating they have clsoed down the plywood plant in Silsbee and the Paper mill in Lufkin.
They are building a pellet mill to make wood pellets to go to Germany. Most are excited as it is going to create about fifty full time job's here not counting the loggers. TB it has gotten so bad most of the logger's went bankrupt and you seldom see a truck on the road anymore.

 

[TexasBred]

Yep it's still operating they have clsoed down the plywood plant in Silsbee and the Paper mill in Lufkin.
They are building a pellet mill to make wood pellets to go to Germany. Most are excited as it is going to create about fifty full time job's here not counting the loggers. TB it has gotten so bad most of the logger's went bankrupt and you seldom see a truck on the road anymore.

Last time I was over in East Texas around Lufkin-Nacogdoches area the trucks I saw loaded with timer looked like they had 300 saplings on there trying to make a load. I guess they were going to just chip it or something because it was too small for anything else. Hate to lose all that virgin timber. Even when they replant with plantation pines it just ain't the same.

 

[houstoncutter]

Your response on the problem of pollution in the Galveston Bay complex is dead on. Harris County had a population of a little over one million in 1960, by 1990 it was over 3million. So the growth was very explosive as you stated... So it is not a question of whether we have pollution from all these people. ....The question is why did we have all the pollution before the people came... answer, the industrial complexes surrounding the bay!

I think at one time the headwaters of Galveston Bay, had more Super Fund cleanup sites that all the other Super Fund cleanup sites in Texas. Who gave you these clean up sites, Exxon, Crown, Shell, Dupont, Southland Paper,Signal Oil, Sheffield Steel ,and the list goes on for quite a while. Who put their foot on their neck and made them quit....EPA......

As for the Big Thicket, I guess you see no problem with clear cutting it and flooding more area to make more water reserves for the Golden Triangle area?

The problem HC is your hypocrisy every dollar made in the Golden Triangle or Houston Galveston Metroplex
directly or indirectly comes from oil and gas or the space program that line mine and your pockets. Oh we don't have the one of them in more.
Most of the pollution came from Jake leg's like you and I, drilling oil wells before the first refinery ever got there. Who ever could rake up enough money to drill was drilling then all over East Texas to the Gulf.
This went on for fifty years, with WWII technology was starting to play a role in our live's.
It was no different than the gold rush to California or Alaska. Oil from a new well drilled could run uncontrolled for week's. The first built refineries were simple stills manly after kerosene and straight run gasoline the rest of the barrel was dumped on the ground or in a ditch. This wasn't done to pollute we didn't know what in the world to do with it. We didn't even know what pollution was. With technology we have learned to recoup 100% of the barrel versus 15% when this all started. I guess we have Ford to blame as we get into our suburban's and super duty's to drive to Mc Donalds.

Again I never stated that we did not need some regulation to operate the industry by as I stated in my first post. I am opposed to regulating us out of business and job's for American's. It wasn't just the EPA either we learned as a we went as a nation.

To your Big Thicket question the Big Thicket doesn't exsist any longer as all but 86,000 acres have been already clear cut and replanted in pine plantation. Several million acres cleared to make paper to wipe our butt's. So if they want to clear cut it again I see no problem.
It actually helps the wildlife and provides it with more food. The pine plantations as they mature reduce wildlife as there is little to eat in them. The Thicket was destroyed in the 70's and 80's after the EPA had came along, it apparently didn't bother them. The only subtropical rainforest in the country destroyed to make paper. Again we learned op's a tree is not a tree, we replaced North America's Ark with another forest that didn't work. So I guess we need to make them come back clear cut all the pine and replant with cedar oak, hickory, black walnut, black cherry, gum, cypress and so on.
That train has left the station. The EPA destroyed the rest of the job's here as there was a sawmill in every town that they regulated out of business. I can cry about the thicket it is not coming back. I would like to see our mills come back for our communities, that is not happening either with the EPA's gestapo boot on our throat.

CB no problem with I or anyone making a profit. The areas oil and chemical plants have operated around Houston have continue to grow. All with EPA oversight for the last 30 years. So I guess this means they can operate in a manner which is safe to us. As for wildcatters making the enviromental problems we had in our area at a earlier time, u are correct, BUT they on their small scale even if added together came nowhere close to causing the enviromental Super Fund sites in and around S.E. Texas.

As for the Big Thicket, I think we should all fight to preserve whats left.. It doesnt need to be flooded to make more water for Houston and the Beaumont area.... All of the state needs to have some controls on water usage. Of course in large cities like Houston that will not happen because they have tied their taxes to the use of water... Restrictions in water use would cost them money. Last year during our epic drought, folks in Houston were still watering the heck out of those lawns and golf courses. Their is no sense in watering a lawn after its been established ,just makes a lazy lawn. Of course you and I know what happens to the excess runoff of the postage stamp yards that receive about 300# lbs of fertilizer. We also have people in the Hill Country trying to grow San Agustine grass...makes no sense.

I at one time thought as you did, just let the good times roll, but as I have aged I have changed my mind... If their are no controls, our younger folks seem to go off deep end. That of course was taught to them by our generation and thats the shame of our generation.