Civil War

[Bestoutwest]

TB, you ever read The Killer Angels?

No sir sure haven't. Reading an old book now "Civil War Treasury" by Albert Nofi. Doesn't spend so much time on battles, statistics, etc as it does on anecdotes of army life, logistics during the war, descriptions of both soldiers and civilians and some of their deeds of honor. Probably take me a year to read it.

It's a book about Gettysburg. The author compiled a ton of notes, diaries, letters, etc and pulled them all together to tell the story of the battle. Told from both sides, all different ranks, even from a royal French observer who was there for kicks. Very interesing read with tons of maps. I remember burning through that one pretty quickly.

 

[Luca Brasi]

Love Ken Burns' work, and not just because he's a northener. I groaned during one winter storm when the wife wanted to watch Gone With the Wind, but I never realized how much interesting history it contained. Can't imagine what they went through down there that didn't really affect us up here. In fact after the war is when most New England farms were abandoned, as returning soldiers discovered what real farm land was like and packed up and moved elsewhere to avoid steep hills and endless rocks. Today as a result we are mostly forested. It is not uncommon to be deep in the woods and come across an old stone wall that signified that there was once a pasture where you stand. Southern farmers I imagine would have given anything to have seed to plant their land, let alone the luxury to just be able to up and abandon it.

FWIW, there is a statue of a Civil War soldier in my town common. Every Christmas someone, I assume even with the blessing of the town since they hang lights on the trees there, puts a Santa hat on the statue. I'm not nearly what you would call a flag waver, but I have enough common consideration to at least respect that others have deep seated beliefs about these things to just sit quietly while they exercise them, as long as they don't push anything in my face. I've always found the hat thing to be disrespectful, and wonder if it would be received just as well if I put a set of bunny ears on the WWII or Vietnam memorials at Easter time.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

We don't have/get PBS. Don't have major networks either.

I do miss some of the programming on PBS.

I wonder if any of their programs or documentries are availabe as a rental? I'll have to check out the local library and see what they have.

Holy cow. Do you get sunlight? (Just joking - lighten up)

Every now and then. We had some today, I guess it was our turn! ;-) :lol2:

We have DishNetwork, the most basic package. If we want CBS, NBC, ABC etc. it costs extra per channel.

 

[gimpyrancher]

No its just a bunch of racist fighting over slaves

Actually, the Civil War was fought over Eminent Domain. Same thing we still fight over today.

 

[TexasBred]

When it comes to eminent domain there is no fight. All you can do is try to increase the compensation you will receive.

 

[gimpyrancher]

When it comes to eminent domain there is no fight. All you can do is try to increase the compensation you will receive.

Correct. That was the fight of the Civil War.

 

[TexasBred]

When it comes to eminent domain there is no fight. All you can do is try to increase the compensation you will receive.

Correct. That was the fight of the Civil War.

So who was trying to take privately owned land for public use and where was this land??

 

[boondocks]

Love Ken Burns' work, and not just because he's a northener. I groaned during one winter storm when the wife wanted to watch Gone With the Wind, but I never realized how much interesting history it contained. Can't imagine what they went through down there that didn't really affect us up here. In fact after the war is when most New England farms were abandoned, as returning soldiers discovered what real farm land was like and packed up and moved elsewhere to avoid steep hills and endless rocks. Today as a result we are mostly forested. It is not uncommon to be deep in the woods and come across an old stone wall that signified that there was once a pasture where you stand. Southern farmers I imagine would have given anything to have seed to plant their land, let alone the luxury to just be able to up and abandon it.

FWIW, there is a statue of a Civil War soldier in my town common. Every Christmas someone, I assume even with the blessing of the town since they hang lights on the trees there, puts a Santa hat on the statue. I'm not nearly what you would call a flag waver, but I have enough common consideration to at least respect that others have deep seated beliefs about these things to just sit quietly while they exercise them, as long as they don't push anything in my face. I've always found the hat thing to be disrespectful, and wonder if it would be received just as well if I put a set of bunny ears on the WWII or Vietnam memorials at Easter time.

Gotta disagree a wee bit. My Ohio grandfather (a few "greats" in there) was captured at Kenesaw and held at Andersonville for a year. He had gangrene and was left behind to die when, in the late summer/early fall 1864 (due to rampart dysentery and typhoid) the Confederates emptied the prison camp of anyone who could walk, and sent them to other (not much better) camps. He got lucky and survived, although possibly minus a leg. Got released when Union soldiers liberated the camp April 1865; went back to Ohio (flat good land) and farmed, dying in his 90's.

Incidentally, there was an overloaded ship, the steamboat Sultana, bringing Northern prisoners of war back home, which exploded and sank just outside Memphis in April 1865. It's a very interesting story in its own right; 1800 people (of 2400) died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_%28steamboat%29. The dead were mostly soldiers who had survived the horrors of war and prison camp, only to be incinerated on their way back home. The regiment (I'm probably misusing the term) my grandfather was with was placed on the Sultana and one other boat, so we don't know if he finally got lucky and got a ride on the other boat, or if he was one of the few survivors of the Sultana. Probably the former; a weakened guy just out of the he77 of Andersonville, with possibly an arm or leg missing, would not seem to be a good swimmer in the cold waters, but on the other hand he did seem to be made of stern stuff...

My WV grandfather (also a few "greats" in there) lost about everything he owned when Uncle Sam's soldiers came through and commandeered his stock, crops, and farm. He fought for decades for compensation and finally got a buck or two just before he died. He was a soldier too, as I recall.

Interesting thread...Like others, I had the whole series on VHS. I went into mourning when Shelby Foote died.

 

[gimpyrancher]

When it comes to eminent domain there is no fight. All you can do is try to increase the compensation you will receive.

Correct. That was the fight of the Civil War.

So who was trying to take privately owned land for public use and where was this land??

Is emanate domain only for land? Or is it defined as the taking of personal property for a just price, for public use? Without just compensation is where the problem comes into play?

We can argue over the right and wrong of slavery but at the time, slaves were private property. Wealth at the time in large part was determined by how many slaves one owned. "The government" wanted that personal property to be disposed of (in a manner of speaking) but was unwilling to offer a fair price for that property. Instead, "we" killed about half a million Americans (not including the disabled) and spent far more doing so than it would have cost the government to pay a fair price for that personal property. :compute:

 

[TexasBred]

TB, you ever read The Killer Angels?

No sir sure haven't. Reading an old book now "Civil War Treasury" by Albert Nofi. Doesn't spend so much time on battles, statistics, etc as it does on anecdotes of army life, logistics during the war, descriptions of both soldiers and civilians and some of their deeds of honor. Probably take me a year to read it.

It's a book about Gettysburg. The author compiled a ton of notes, diaries, letters, etc and pulled them all together to tell the story of the battle. Told from both sides, all different ranks, even from a royal French observer who was there for kicks. Very interesing read with tons of maps. I remember burning through that one pretty quickly.

I believe the Battle of Gettysburg caused the most casualties on both sides but it lasted 3 days.

 

[TexasBred]

We can argue over the right and wrong of slavery but at the time, slaves were private property. Wealth at the time in large part was determined by how many slaves one owned. "The government" wanted that personal property to be disposed of (in a manner of speaking) but was unwilling to offer a fair price for that property. Instead, "we" killed about half a million Americans (not including the disabled) and spent far more doing so than it would have cost the government to pay a fair price for that personal property. :compute:

Do you really think those slaves would have been "for sale"?? Not at any price !!!!!!! Ask the confederate folks. They fired the first shots and started it all. :lol:

 

[Ryder]

In my humble opinion those slave would have been freed. It would have taken time. But slavery was on the way out.
Notables such as General R. E. Lee were opposed to slavery.
Jos. Davis, brother of Jefferson Davis had a program on his Mississippi plantation that he would free any slave that learned a trade and could support himself.
This brand of leadership from the South would have eventually ended slavery in a much kinder and compassionate way.
But the war came and the Yankees stopped that dead in its tracks. People think the slaves were freed and had a grand time. Do they ever stop to think that the desolation of the south caused hunger among the whites but among the blacks as well?


When the invading union troops destroyed crops, ran off the mules, killed hogs and other livestock this hurt everybody, black and white. You can't live high on the hog when there is no hog.

The war, the terrible bloodshed, indescribable hardship, poverty and hunger did not help anybody other than a politician greedy for control and power.

Deo Vindice

 

[Jogeephus]

In my humble opinion those slave would have been freed. It would have taken time. But slavery was on the way out.
Notables such as General R. E. Lee were opposed to slavery.
Jos. Davis, brother of Jefferson Davis had a program on his Mississippi plantation that he would free any slave that learned a trade and could support himself.
This brand of leadership from the South would have eventually ended slavery in a much kinder and compassionate way.
But the war came and the Yankees stopped that dead in its tracks. People think the slaves were freed and had a grand time. Do they ever stop to think that the desolation of the south caused hunger among the whites but among the blacks as well?


When the invading union troops destroyed crops, ran off the mules, killed hogs and other livestock this hurt everybody, black and white. You can't live high on the hog when there is no hog.

The war, the terrible bloodshed, indescribable hardship, poverty and hunger did not help anybody other than a politician greedy for control and power.

Deo Vindice

I agree. And the occupation by the north with their carpet baggers and vagabonds just made things worse and caused some hard times and hard feelings. This little tidbit of history is all too often forgotten.

 

[hurleyjd]

Because of the shortage of food and the northern folks thinking that black eyed peas was animal food the southern folks did cook and eat them and that is why the southern folks always have black eyed peas for New Years lunch.

 

[TexasBred]

In my humble opinion those slave would have been freed. It would have taken time. But slavery was on the way out.
Notables such as General R. E. Lee were opposed to slavery.
Jos. Davis, brother of Jefferson Davis had a program on his Mississippi plantation that he would free any slave that learned a trade and could support himself.
This brand of leadership from the South would have eventually ended slavery in a much kinder and compassionate way.
But the war came and the Yankees stopped that dead in its tracks. People think the slaves were freed and had a grand time. Do they ever stop to think that the desolation of the south caused hunger among the whites but among the blacks as well?


When the invading union troops destroyed crops, ran off the mules, killed hogs and other livestock this hurt everybody, black and white. You can't live high on the hog when there is no hog.

The war, the terrible bloodshed, indescribable hardship, poverty and hunger did not help anybody other than a politician greedy for control and power.

Deo Vindice

I've read a number of articles about how slavery would have died out. Just another hypothesis as nobody will ever know. And absolutely the freed slaves did suffer after the war just as the white folks did but they were free at least in their own mind but most were still treated like slaves even into the 20th century. I'm still looking for that politician you speak of ... Jefferson Davis perhaps??

 

[boondocks]

As someone who was never enslaved, personally I don't feel I have the right to say that those who were should've just waited a bit longer. Seems like to me folks that owned slaves were kinda keen to hold onto them.

Would you rather be enslaved or free, even if being free meant you had to/got to fend for yourself? So many people on these boards talk a lot about valuing personal liberty and the right to self-determination. You can't pick and choose who gets those rights.

Slavery was a cancer, an abomination, that cannot be morally defended. It was a stain on the country as a whole, not just the South. Unfortunately, we are still seeing human trafficking cases even today in the US, although nowadays it is hidden more in the cities, to my understanding. See eg: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/hall ... rahim.html

 

[Jogeephus]

As someone who was never enslaved, personally I don't feel I have the right to say that those who were should've just waited a bit longer. Seems like to me folks that owned slaves were kinda keen to hold onto them.

Would you rather be enslaved or free, even if being free meant you had to/got to fend for yourself? So many people on these boards talk a lot about valuing personal liberty and the right to self-determination. You can't pick and choose who gets those rights.

Slavery was a cancer, an abomination, that cannot be morally defended. It was a stain on the country as a whole, not just the South. Unfortunately, we are still seeing human trafficking cases even today in the US, although nowadays it is hidden more in the cities, to my understanding. See eg: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/hall ... rahim.html

Slavery was and is a big part of Islam - "the religion of peace". When the Moors met too much resistance from Europe and the west they ended the white slave trade but to satisfy these good hearted peaceful muslims it was agreed they could continue their slave trade unhindered if they got people from Africa. Wasn't too long ago there was a slave freedom purchase held in north Africa where a fuzzy group tried to buy the slaves freedom only to find they were buying the freedom several times and the muslim masters were laughing all the way to the bank at the stupidity of the west.

 

[Caustic Burno]

As someone who was never enslaved, personally I don't feel I have the right to say that those who were should've just waited a bit longer. Seems like to me folks that owned slaves were kinda keen to hold onto them.

Would you rather be enslaved or free, even if being free meant you had to/got to fend for yourself? So many people on these boards talk a lot about valuing personal liberty and the right to self-determination. You can't pick and choose who gets those rights.

Slavery was a cancer, an abomination, that cannot be morally defended. It was a stain on the country as a whole, not just the South. Unfortunately, we are still seeing human trafficking cases even today in the US, although nowadays it is hidden more in the cities, to my understanding. See eg: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/hall ... rahim.html

Slavery was never about owning slaves it was about power and money.
With the upcoming industrial revolution it would have been cheaper not to have them.
Just like the whole war was over power and money never the issue of slavery.
Share cropping was much more efficient as you got to use the blacks and poor whites and didn't
have to feed or shelter either. Always follow the dollar and it will lead you to Washington every time.

 

[TexasBred]

Slavery was never about owning slaves it was about power and money.
With the upcoming industrial revolution it would have been cheaper not to have them.
Just like the whole war was over power and money never the issue of slavery.
Share cropping was much more efficient as you got to use the blacks and poor whites and didn't
have to feed or shelter either. Always follow the dollar and it will lead you to Washington every time.

Yep...slaves were money. Billions of dollars worth. Slavery in the South made a minority of white Southerners, owners of large slave holdings, enormously wealthy and they certainly were not going to give this up. If a few slaves were not needed on the plantation they simply leased them to a factory in town and made even more money. And at the same time, it demeaned and exploited Southerners of African descent, left the majority of white Southerners impoverished and uneducated, and retarded the overall economic, cultural, and social growth of the region. Slavery was the institution by which the South defined itself when it chose to secede from the Union. But it was the existence of slavery, with its negative impact on politics, economics, and social relations, that fatally crippled the South in its bid for independence. The union had more factories than the South had factory workers.......and thus you have "The Fall of the House of Dixie".

 

[Caustic Burno]

Slavery was never about owning slaves it was about power and money.
With the upcoming industrial revolution it would have been cheaper not to have them.
Just like the whole war was over power and money never the issue of slavery.
Share cropping was much more efficient as you got to use the blacks and poor whites and didn't
have to feed or shelter either. Always follow the dollar and it will lead you to Washington every time.

Yep...slaves were money. Billions of dollars worth. Slavery in the South made a minority of white Southerners, owners of large slave holdings, enormously wealthy and they certainly were not going to give this up. If a few slaves were not needed on the plantation they simply leased them to a factory in town and made even more money. And at the same time, it demeaned and exploited Southerners of African descent, left the majority of white Southerners impoverished and uneducated, and retarded the overall economic, cultural, and social growth of the region. Slavery was the institution by which the South defined itself when it chose to secede from the Union. But it was the existence of slavery, with its negative impact on politics, economics, and social relations, that fatally crippled the South in its bid for independence. The union had more factories than the South had factory workers.......and thus you have "The Fall of the House of Dixie".

TB you are full of more shyt than a Christmas turkey.
You are a total foreigner when it comes to this issue.
The largest slave trader in the country was a Yankee named DeWolfe.
Factories had nothing to do with it until the war the north economy was based on using children for slave labor in the factories,
the south in agriculture. It was all about seats in Congress that is all. There were no altruistic motives, as child slavery continued for
decades after.
The fatal mistake the south made was not invading the north until it was too late.