cattle epds

[Massey135]

Will we see a time when cattle of all breeds are indexed on the same set of epds? You know, so that strait comparisons can be made and each breed's strenghts and weaknesses(relative to other breeds) can be accurately identified?

 

[cow pollinater]

It's doubtfull... To many breed associations would be hesitant to admit that their cattle are not matching up. We already have an accross breed adjustment table that gets updated yearly so unless it gets forced on the breed associations I don't see it happening even though it would make life alot easier on some of us.

 

[Isomade]

It's kind of like a playoff in college football. It would be nice, but not likely to happen.

 

[cmf1]

The road to the God's honest truth about anything these days is a rocky one at best.
Add to that you would like to share any truths you find along the way with anybody that asks,...I can only imagine the resistance you would meet with.

I did find it interesting though that RAA will be linking with Simmental for EPDs.
I spoke with some people starting a new Murray Grey association,(Thanks goodness, we only have 3 or 4 now) and they will be linking to Simmental EPDs as well.

Not likely to turn any heads but still, could be a start of something.

JS could soon be King Of The World as we know it.

 

[bigag03]

While it is a great idea in theory, it is just not possible. Politics aside, the science doesn't support it. There are several breeds already using a new Multi-Breed EPD model and it is a joke. The problem (and is also a problem with across breed adjustments if you read the fine print) is that there is no way to accurately account for heterosis. There have been research studies going on since the 70's that are trying to track heterosis. These studies have just barely put a consistent model to the expression of heterosis, much less an actual number. Also, it has been shown many times that environment plays a huge role in the expression of heterosis meaning that the heterosis seen in Texas between two breeds will be different than the heterosis seen in Ohio between the same two breeds.

EPDs started out as a within herd tool. These numbers weren't extremely useful, but they were fairly accurate. In order to make the numbers more useful, more and more information has been added which has allowed them to be used within breed and maybe even across some breeds, but with every additional piece of information comes additional estimates that make the numbers less accurate and reliable.

 

[houstoncutter]

Epd's are a tool, and a poor one at that. If someone wants to argue the merits, I give you case in point, look at the pic of the bull Napoleon that Red Bull put up on the thread " One for Houstoncutter"....this bulls epd's would be considered average at best..... Now look at the great fullbloods in the Limousin breed today...Rest my case....I have used bulls in the past that would have had only average epd's by todays standards, but they delivered much better results than todays bulls that have great epd's....and before someone wants to jump on that Limi bashing bandwagon.... I will say I have the same examples in the Angus, and Gelbvieh bull that I have used....

As far as an epd that I have had good results with, it would be the docility epd of Limousin... That sucker is dead on, and has helped me keep some great looking but knuckle headed bulls out of my pasture.

 

[Massey135]

While it is a great idea in theory, it is just not possible. Politics aside, the science doesn't support it. There are several breeds already using a new Multi-Breed EPD model and it is a joke. The problem (and is also a problem with across breed adjustments if you read the fine print) is that there is no way to accurately account for heterosis. There have been research studies going on since the 70's that are trying to track heterosis. These studies have just barely put a consistent model to the expression of heterosis, much less an actual number. Also, it has been shown many times that environment plays a huge role in the expression of heterosis meaning that the heterosis seen in Texas between two breeds will be different than the heterosis seen in Ohio between the same two breeds.

EPDs started out as a within herd tool. These numbers weren't extremely useful, but they were fairly accurate. In order to make the numbers more useful, more and omore information has been added which has allowed them to be used within breed and maybe even across some breeds, but with every additional piece of information comes additional estimates that make the numbers less accurate and reliable.

I have no idea what your trying to say. I'm not talking about crossbreeding. U would think if I were to collect the bws of all calves born of every breed in the US, I could determine a species birthweight average. Set the average at 0 like the AAA and adjust accordingly for higher or lower. Why couldn't the same be done with ww or yw? Find the average, adjust accordingly. I see a time when all cattle are indexed and one will literally be able to say, the best cattle to use in Hopkins county, TX have these set numbers and the cattle that perform the best in Vanderburgh county, IN have these set..

 

[Old_man_emu]

In Australia not all breeds are measured by the same traits as not all breed societies place the same emphasis on the same traits and they also have different $indexs.
Australian EBV's ( I know you're talking about EPD's) are based on being above or below breed average, all breeds would then have to measured against the same "average" and that would be to hard to agree upon. Particular breeds could excel unfairly against others if the average was set too high. I think an example of this would be comparing growth rates of Red Poll against Charolais on a single base.
I don't think it can work.

 

[JustSimmental]

I think the closest we can get to that is by using the Across Breed EPD table.
here is 2011 >> http://beefmagazine.com/site-files/...stment-factors-estimate-across-breed-EPDs.pdf

As you can see several breeds just don't have the data.

 

[Massey135]

I think the closest we can get to that is by using the Across Breed EPD table.
here is 2011 >> http://beefmagazine.com/site-files/...stment-factors-estimate-across-breed-EPDs.pdf

As you can see several breeds just don't have the data.

Thats the problem- too many breeds have "data" and not 'Information"- accuracies under .5 are data to me. Information is that which is useful to the recipient. stacked numbers without any accuracy to support them is nothing more than "data"- words and numbers meaning nothing.

 

[cbcr]

As I have posted before, the BIF across breed adjustment tables are not accurate. If you will look at any Angus bull that is used heavily and pull his EPD's from all of the breed associations and then try to use the BIF adjustments you will see how far off they really are.

In the dairy industry the sire proofs are done by the USDA and it doesn't make any difference which breed it is they can be compared.

But as has been mentioned, too many politics in the associations are in the way to let this happen in the beef industry, no matter if all producers could greatly benefit.

Another problem, and it doesn't make any difference who is doing the calculations, there are now 3 or 4 companies the are performing EPD calculations, is that, even with them, the EPD's will be different. The reason is due to how many animals of each breed are in their databases. The Simmental one, is mostly made up of Simmental cattle. Others may have a larger base of another breed. But, the bottom line is I think that those that are trying to do multibreed evaluations even with some of the differences, are more accurate that the BIF adjustment tables.

 

[u4411clb]

I may be missing something but what is the big deal about having across breed epds? Why would they matter? I know when I make a bull choice I choose the breed of bull I want first and then I choose a group of bulls I like in that breed by their look and then I look at the epds in that group and make my decision. I don't think if a person wants an Angus bull that any Saler or Gelbveigh epd is going to change that. And before I get attacked by the Simmental cult if a person believes in Simmental I doubt any data is going to change their mind that their breed is the best in the world.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

Will we see a time when cattle of all breeds are indexed on the same set of epds? You know, so that strait comparisons can be made and each breed's strenghts and weaknesses(relative to other breeds) can be accurately identified?

MF -- I think you probably already knew the answer to your question . . . won't happen for a way long time, if ever. In the interim, work with EPDs for one breed at a time and do your own hypothetic results. Isn't it pretty much "toss up" if you aren't dealing w/ known quantities outside your breed preference, and even those aren't a sure bet. ??

 

[Lon]

I may be missing something but what is the big deal about having across breed epds? Why would they matter? I know when I make a bull choice I choose the breed of bull I want first and then I choose a group of bulls I like in that breed by their look and then I look at the epds in that group and make my decision. I don't think if a person wants an Angus bull that any Saler or Gelbveigh epd is going to change that. And before I get attacked by the Simmental cult if a person believes in Simmental I doubt any data is going to change their mind that their breed is the best in the world.

Although i do think it would be nice to compare sires of different breeds to each other i would have to agree with this that most people already have a breed in mind and no set of numbers will change that. Here is another thought on the whole thing as well. Say i has a group of angus cows. I wanted to compare an angus and hereford bull. Well even if i could balance them all out and see them on an equal playing field once you factored in the heterosis of crossbreeding wouldnt that take away the fact that they are on an equal playing field and make the cross breed epds not so accurate any more as well? or is my thinking wrong on this.

 

[dun]

I may be missing something but what is the big deal about having across breed epds? Why would they matter? I know when I make a bull choice I choose the breed of bull I want first and then I choose a group of bulls I like in that breed by their look and then I look at the epds in that group and make my decision. I don't think if a person wants an Angus bull that any Saler or Gelbveigh epd is going to change that. And before I get attacked by the Simmental cult if a person believes in Simmental I doubt any data is going to change their mind that their breed is the best in the world.

Pretty much my thoughts too and put better then I could also.

 

[regolith]

All dairy cattle in NZ are indexed against a common base... average NZ dairy cow born in 2000 I think it is right now.
Whether you think it works or not depends on what your aims are. I read the proofs with a chart alongside showing the average for that breed. Apparently beef cattle are included too... because if I use an Angus or Hereford AI bull there's a dairy 'breeding worth' attached to the bull.

The 'catch-up' changes in the base cow (from 1985 to 2000 via about three adjustments in five years) are very unhelpful. Overnight no-one knows what anyone else is talking about because all the numbers have changed.
My breeding company printing out the average indexes for each breed group within my herd is helpful... it confirms that I'm going in the direction I want to be going in.

 

[Massey135]

Indexed against a common base... I like it.

 

[bigag03]

I think the closest we can get to that is by using the Across Breed EPD table.
here is 2011 >> http://beefmagazine.com/site-files/...stment-factors-estimate-across-breed-EPDs.pdf

As you can see several breeds just don't have the data.

Thats the problem- too many breeds have "data" and not 'Information"- accuracies under .5 are data to me. Information is that which is useful to the recipient. stacked numbers without any accuracy to support them is nothing more than "data"- words and numbers meaning nothing.

The "data" is the actual measurements taken in the field and reported to the respective association. EPDs are "information" regardless of accuracy. Low accuracy EPDs may be less reliable that high accuracy, but they are much more informative than actual data points.

 

[bigag03]

While it is a great idea in theory, it is just not possible. Politics aside, the science doesn't support it. There are several breeds already using a new Multi-Breed EPD model and it is a joke. The problem (and is also a problem with across breed adjustments if you read the fine print) is that there is no way to accurately account for heterosis. There have been research studies going on since the 70's that are trying to track heterosis. These studies have just barely put a consistent model to the expression of heterosis, much less an actual number. Also, it has been shown many times that environment plays a huge role in the expression of heterosis meaning that the heterosis seen in Texas between two breeds will be different than the heterosis seen in Ohio between the same two breeds.

EPDs started out as a within herd tool. These numbers weren't extremely useful, but they were fairly accurate. In order to make the numbers more useful, more and omore information has been added which has allowed them to be used within breed and maybe even across some breeds, but with every additional piece of information comes additional estimates that make the numbers less accurate and reliable.

I have no idea what your trying to say. I'm not talking about crossbreeding. U would think if I were to collect the bws of all calves born of every breed in the US, I could determine a species birthweight average. Set the average at 0 like the AAA and adjust accordingly for higher or lower. Why couldn't the same be done with ww or yw? Find the average, adjust accordingly. I see a time when all cattle are indexed and one will literally be able to say, the best cattle to use in Hopkins county, TX have these set numbers and the cattle that perform the best in Vanderburgh county, IN have these set..

If you are considering bulls of two different breeds for the same set of cows, then I am sure some degree of crossbreeding is about to happen. If you have a set of Angus cows and you are trying to choose between and Angus bull and a Hereford bull, there is not a number in the world that can do this (even the across breed table) because the Angus will have no heterosis and the Hereford will have 100% heterosis. If you had a set of F1 Black Baldy cows and tried to make the same comparison, both bulls would have 50% heterosis with the female so a comparison could be made. I (and I believe many others too) would question the accuracy of the across breed table even in this scenario, but at least you would be comparing apples to apples.