some shorthorns are known carriers of TH (Tibial Hemimelia), a lethal (one way or another) genetic flaw that can cause calves to be born with structural deformities such as shorter legs and often they have a hernia. it would be well worth looking into.
"Carnavore's" view of the cattle business..
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what got me thinking about TH was that mother-son matings dont usually result in a lot of deformities unless there is something really nasty like TH or something lurking in the genes. Normally your deformities and crap like that show up more with mating an animal with a grandparent. thats why in linebreeding they say thats more of a no-no.
Carnivore
Well-known member
For anyone interested in this:
http://ard.unl.edu/rn/0900/calf.html
When a local Shorthorn breeder brought a calf with severely malformed hind quarters to the Veterinary Diagnostic Center last summer, warning signals went off in Veterinary Pathologist Dave Steffen's mind. A calf with similar deformities had been described to him by a Canadian veterinarian just weeks before.
As head of the University of Nebraska's Cattle Congenital Disease Program, Steffen knew the calves might be suffering from a genetic disease. He began the genetic detective work that he uses on as many as 80 cases annually: discovering similar cases, collecting data on symptoms, gathering blood samples for DNA testing and analyzing pedigrees.
Steffen uncovered four cases with similar symptoms, two in the United States and two in Canada. After characterizing the calves' symptoms and laboriously analyzing their pedigrees, he diagnosed the condition as tibial hemimelia, a genetic disease caused by an abnormal recessive gene.
"We were able to trace all the calves back within six generations to the same sire, a very popular sire used by a lot of breeders," Steffen said.
Tibial hemimelia is a lethal condition. Affected calves are missing part of their rear legs, have large umbilical hernias and a skull deformity. They cannot stand to nurse and must be destroyed. Although these calves are a loss for owners, the larger problem for breeders is identifying which cattle carry and pass on the recessive gene.
"What happens is that a mutation occurs and it might get carried silently along for generations," Steffen said. "But when a sire and a dam both carry the abnormal recessive genes, one quarter of their calves will be affected or deformed."
When this happens, he advises breeders to cull confirmed carriers. That's an expensive step: average good bulls run about $3,000 and an outstanding sire can be worth tens of thousands.
Expensive, but necessary, Steffen said.
"Just by identifying, reporting and removing confirmed carriers you can keep these diseases beaten back and under control," he said.
Tibial hemimelia is an emerging problem for Shorthorn producers, but all breeds suffer from genetic diseases. Steffen recently researched cases of mule foot disease in Simmentals and Holsteins, alopecia in polled Herefords and a collagen defect in Angus.
"Proving that a problem is not genetic is often the most important thing in these cases," Steffen said. Almost 60 percent of Steffen's cases have non-genetic causes, usually environmental factors. Toxic plants such as poison hemlock, which causes skeletal abnormalities, are a common culprit. When environmental causes can't be pinpointed, thoroughly searching the calf's pedigree often rules out the chance that the trait is inherited, Steffen said.
This Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources program is the only one of its kind in the nation and gets heavy use by breeders and breeding associations, who refer most of Steffen's cases.
'The breeder associations are really interested in keeping this program going because it is so important to catch genetic problems early," Steffen said. "They learned that lesson in the 1950s when dwarfism became a huge problem in the Hereford and Angus breeds."
The National Association of Animal Breeders, the Angus Association and the Simmental Association help fund this research.
http://ard.unl.edu/rn/0900/calf.html
When a local Shorthorn breeder brought a calf with severely malformed hind quarters to the Veterinary Diagnostic Center last summer, warning signals went off in Veterinary Pathologist Dave Steffen's mind. A calf with similar deformities had been described to him by a Canadian veterinarian just weeks before.
As head of the University of Nebraska's Cattle Congenital Disease Program, Steffen knew the calves might be suffering from a genetic disease. He began the genetic detective work that he uses on as many as 80 cases annually: discovering similar cases, collecting data on symptoms, gathering blood samples for DNA testing and analyzing pedigrees.
Steffen uncovered four cases with similar symptoms, two in the United States and two in Canada. After characterizing the calves' symptoms and laboriously analyzing their pedigrees, he diagnosed the condition as tibial hemimelia, a genetic disease caused by an abnormal recessive gene.
"We were able to trace all the calves back within six generations to the same sire, a very popular sire used by a lot of breeders," Steffen said.
Tibial hemimelia is a lethal condition. Affected calves are missing part of their rear legs, have large umbilical hernias and a skull deformity. They cannot stand to nurse and must be destroyed. Although these calves are a loss for owners, the larger problem for breeders is identifying which cattle carry and pass on the recessive gene.
"What happens is that a mutation occurs and it might get carried silently along for generations," Steffen said. "But when a sire and a dam both carry the abnormal recessive genes, one quarter of their calves will be affected or deformed."
When this happens, he advises breeders to cull confirmed carriers. That's an expensive step: average good bulls run about $3,000 and an outstanding sire can be worth tens of thousands.
Expensive, but necessary, Steffen said.
"Just by identifying, reporting and removing confirmed carriers you can keep these diseases beaten back and under control," he said.
Tibial hemimelia is an emerging problem for Shorthorn producers, but all breeds suffer from genetic diseases. Steffen recently researched cases of mule foot disease in Simmentals and Holsteins, alopecia in polled Herefords and a collagen defect in Angus.
"Proving that a problem is not genetic is often the most important thing in these cases," Steffen said. Almost 60 percent of Steffen's cases have non-genetic causes, usually environmental factors. Toxic plants such as poison hemlock, which causes skeletal abnormalities, are a common culprit. When environmental causes can't be pinpointed, thoroughly searching the calf's pedigree often rules out the chance that the trait is inherited, Steffen said.
This Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources program is the only one of its kind in the nation and gets heavy use by breeders and breeding associations, who refer most of Steffen's cases.
'The breeder associations are really interested in keeping this program going because it is so important to catch genetic problems early," Steffen said. "They learned that lesson in the 1950s when dwarfism became a huge problem in the Hereford and Angus breeds."
The National Association of Animal Breeders, the Angus Association and the Simmental Association help fund this research.
Carnivore
Well-known member
Beefy":40uto2cj said:
Beefy:
I think you may be onto something here.
The calf's hindquarters looked deformed, (like the hip sockets were non-existant) and the front legs looked too short.
In addition, the calf I did end up rescuing that I gave away came from the same genetic soup, and she had adnormally short legs.
My original herd was two purebred shorthorns bred to an angus bull, with a heifer calf from one of these two shorthorns. that heifer calf became the mother of the calf I had to put down.
In addition, several of our calves have had abnormally long, shaggy, hair, including the grandfather of the calf. Looks like it is time to change direction.
Carnivore
Well-known member
No, my calf was not that apparently screwed up. I doubt if I would have needed any advice if I saw one of those in my pasture after a cow gave birth... ;-)
under what circumstances did you acquire the animals. they might have been culled for that very reason? i wouldnt give up entirely on the shorthorns, there are good ones out there and they are a good breed. unless you jsut want to try something different.
auctionboy
Well-known member
Nurturing side? If you see a animal that is going to die shoot it. You do not wait and let it suffer. You do not just let things die. If you want an animal out if your herd you cull it. I had a real bad Hereford last fall but I caught it and off to auction, I didn't just leave it to starve over the winter. That wouldn't have been natural selection. I would like to see a cougar come after a large longhorn with a calf. Also these are herd animals that would make them not such easy prey. There are wild Buffalo in the US.Carnivore":2712sakk said:
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
This guys mule is in the ditch and his wagon has turned over and spilled all his marbles.
Carnivore
Well-known member
Beefy":2rgknwq8 said:
I got them from a friend who I feel is trustworthy, and likely hasn't encountered the TH problem, because se he has been using an Angus bull on his Shorthorn cows.
After doing some more internet reading, I am not sure about the TH gene. It seems like everything I read talks about the result being like the pictures, but my calf had no hernia, nor did it have the small hips, only that they were deformed. I wonder if the genetic mutation can be manifisted in a less extreme way.
In any event, there is no more of that strain to breed from, but a seperate Angus bull, which should clean up the genetics so no more deformed calves.
Carnivore
Well-known member
auctionboy":1m0yau4q said:
In the case of the above mentioned calf, it didn't look like it was going to die, just that the mother seemed afraid of it. But, on the other hand, it also seemed like it wanted to motherr it. A psycho cow, I guess. After finding it outside the fence, and putting it back, the mother figured it out and started nursing the calf.
The cougar would not go after a longhorn with a calf. It would go after the calf first, and in a herd, pick off the outside stragglers. Cougars prey on the weak first, which increases the survivability of the herd, but a cougar could easily take down a full-grown longhorn. Just jump in it's back and snap it's neck.
The longhorn is also equipped with a a couple weapons of it's own, that most current cattle do not have.
Perhaps the longhorn might be able to survive, but an angus or shorthorn would be defenseless.
Carnivore
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":2nv2fvrw said:
Thank-you for your input. :heart:
Saltydawg
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":2qa3y3in said:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
longhorn314
Well-known member
memanpa
Well-known member
hummmmmmm
seems like you are having a lot of problems with your so called natural selection process of breeding animal care!
if i was having these problems i would definatly be looking for a reason.
how do you cull? sell any at the barn or do you just kill all your culls for hamburger?
1:I let my feelings for this cow, (it was my first calf I raised myself) interfere with my logic. I should have culled it last year, instead of slaughtering the other heifer that neither my wife or I liked because it was loud and obnoxious, (but a good mother).
how do you know it was a good mother?
2:i kind of thought that is what I did. When the calf was born I was heading off to work, and figured mom would take care of her little calf. 10 hours later, when I returned home and found that the calf still was in distress, wasn't up and hadn't received the colostrum it needed, I came on this board to ask for some quick advice, as to whether or not the calf had a chance of making it. If not, I would put it down.
almost animal cruelity
calling out anguslimo?
boy i bet tha makes you feel like a BIG MAN
Thirdly, is the financial aspect. The day, (yesterday) I made a cool grand doing what I do for a living. Trying to save a $200 calf at the expense of a thousand dollars isn't good economics. I suspect even you can figure that one out. It was not about being lazy.
more like being irresponsible
am no totally sure you need to be in the business
seems like you are having a lot of problems with your so called natural selection process of breeding animal care!
if i was having these problems i would definatly be looking for a reason.
how do you cull? sell any at the barn or do you just kill all your culls for hamburger?
1:I let my feelings for this cow, (it was my first calf I raised myself) interfere with my logic. I should have culled it last year, instead of slaughtering the other heifer that neither my wife or I liked because it was loud and obnoxious, (but a good mother).
how do you know it was a good mother?
2:i kind of thought that is what I did. When the calf was born I was heading off to work, and figured mom would take care of her little calf. 10 hours later, when I returned home and found that the calf still was in distress, wasn't up and hadn't received the colostrum it needed, I came on this board to ask for some quick advice, as to whether or not the calf had a chance of making it. If not, I would put it down.
almost animal cruelity
calling out anguslimo?
boy i bet tha makes you feel like a BIG MAN
Thirdly, is the financial aspect. The day, (yesterday) I made a cool grand doing what I do for a living. Trying to save a $200 calf at the expense of a thousand dollars isn't good economics. I suspect even you can figure that one out. It was not about being lazy.
more like being irresponsible
am no totally sure you need to be in the business
Carnivore":2we8v82g said:
Your logic is running on a completely different road than everyone else's. Give the calf some TLC, feed it up, and if you really don't want the calf, you can sell it so it ends up in the feedlots or you can butcher it yourself. It's a no-brainer. No one ever said you had to keep the calf and allow it to reproduce in your herd. :roll:
Same again -- just ship the cow after you've doctored it back to health -- why even entertain the notion of having to KEEP it?
Wrong. If you'd shipped the calf when it was weaned you wouldn't have the problem to begin with. You would have made some money in the process too.
On the topic of vaccinations -- don't give me that nonsense about not being allowed to vaccinate when running an organic herd. I've discussed it recently and while you are NOT allowed to use antibiotics, you are allowed to vaccinate. And you'd BETTER be able to vaccinate, as you can prevent most problems by vaccinating. Footrot, blackleg, some types of pnemonia and 'shipping fever', some types of mastitis and scours, reproductive diseases...the list goes on. Operating on the theory of 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure' -- if you can't use the CURE (antibiotics) for bacterial diseases, you'd better be able to use the PREVENTION (vaccinations). It's a scary enough thought to be unable to use antibiotics; without the ability to vaccinate you are going to go down, it's only a matter of time.
memanpa
Well-known member
once again milkmaid comes thru with the most intelligent post here 
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