BW

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Why give mom more potential problems with a 95-100 lb calf which will most likely not exceed the above WW and most often will not match it.

Big calves at birth can create problems.

If your cows have trouble with 95-100 lb calves, and they're not small framed (under 11 or 1200 lbs), then you've got other problems. For a few short years, I bred those jackrabbit calves, thinking I was ahead of the game, but I was only fooling myself.

If your bull is phenotypically correct for calving ease, a 95 - 100 lb calf will give you more lbs at weaning time and the incidents of dystocia will be no higher than if you breed those 70 lbers. And if your nutrition level is correct, those 95 lb calves will be up and sucking just as quickly as a 70 lb calf. My critters are all medium framed (FS4's and 5's), and routinely deliver 90 - 110 lb calves unassisted. Most of my heifers deliver 10 - 11% of their weight unassisted.

Rod

 

[MikeC]

Why give mom more potential problems with a 95-100 lb calf which will most likely not exceed the above WW and most often will not match it.

Big calves at birth can create problems.

If your cows have trouble with 95-100 lb calves, and they're not small framed (under 11 or 1200 lbs), then you've got other problems. For a few short years, I bred those jackrabbit calves, thinking I was ahead of the game, but I was only fooling myself.

If your bull is phenotypically correct for calving ease, a 95 - 100 lb calf will give you more lbs at weaning time and the incidents of dystocia will be no higher than if you breed those 70 lbers. And if your nutrition level is correct, those 95 lb calves will be up and sucking just as quickly as a 70 lb calf. My critters are all medium framed (FS4's and 5's), and routinely deliver 90 - 110 lb calves unassisted. Most of my heifers deliver 10 - 11% of their weight unassisted.

Rod

Rod, I have also seen 70-75 lb calves cause big birthing problems.

Let them keep having those 60 lb calves and keep the heifers for a few years.................................

they won't be able breed their cows to a goat. :lol: :lol:

Pelvic size is the key to easy calving.

Not necessarily "COW" size.

 

[randiliana]

Why give mom more potential problems with a 95-100 lb calf which will most likely not exceed the above WW and most often will not match it.

Big calves at birth can create problems.

If your cows have trouble with 95-100 lb calves, and they're not small framed (under 11 or 1200 lbs), then you've got other problems. For a few short years, I bred those jackrabbit calves, thinking I was ahead of the game, but I was only fooling myself.

If your bull is phenotypically correct for calving ease, a 95 - 100 lb calf will give you more lbs at weaning time and the incidents of dystocia will be no higher than if you breed those 70 lbers. And if your nutrition level is correct, those 95 lb calves will be up and sucking just as quickly as a 70 lb calf. My critters are all medium framed (FS4's and 5's), and routinely deliver 90 - 110 lb calves unassisted. Most of my heifers deliver 10 - 11% of their weight unassisted.

Rod

I have to agree with Rod here. We ran an average 93 lb BW on our cows, and 77 lb BW on our heifers this year. With 5% assists on the cows, and 13% on the heifers and one of those was a 66 lb calf. So there goes the theory that small always = easy. That was the hardest pull we had, and the smallest calf we had. Was a heifer we bought.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Rod, I have also seen 70-75 lb calves cause big birthing problems.

Yep. One of the hardest pulls I ever had around here was a blunt nosed, square shouldered 73 lb Angus/Simm cross calf. This year, my heifer bull was a genetic aberration, at least so far as his birthweights were concerned. Low BW on his dam and sire side, and his own BW was low (mid 80s). For whatever reason, the lightest calf he dropped all season was 110 lbs. My heifers were a hair on the small side (mid 7 weights), and I had to lightly assist them. Unfortunately, two C-sections on 7 weight heifers (120lb calf, 125 lb calf). But an 8 weight heifer slid out a 130 lb calf all by her lonesome. Proper phenotype on the cows and the bulls are what makes for calving ease. Low birthweight comes in a distant third.

Rod

 

[dun]

Let them keep having those 60 lb calves and keep the heifers for a few years.................................

they won't be able breed their cows to a goat. :lol: :lol:

Pelvic size is the key to easy calving.

Not necessarily "COW" size.

Half BS and half accurate.

The low BW alwasy contributing to later calving problems is BS. If you don;t select for the bulls daughters calving ease you cna get into trouble. But low BW doesn;t automatically mean that you're breeding for small pelvic size.

The pelvic size and "COW" size is accurate.

BW also doesn't directly correlate to low weaning weights. Our little jackrabbit 60-75 lb calves weaned off at between 478 and 630, the light one from a heifer that had a 45 lb calf. This is in 137 - 187 days of age at weaning.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

BW also doesn't directly correlate to low weaning weights. Our little jackrabbit 60-75 lb calves weaned off at between 478 and 630, the light one from a heifer that had a 45 lb calf. This is in 137 - 187 days of age at weaning.

Dun, just out of curiosity have you tried increasing your birthweights on those exact same cows and checking your weaning weights? The reason I ask is because I've done that. My experiments with low birth weight calves was only a few years ago, and many of the cows I used then are still around. I've found that increasing my BW by 20 lbs gave me another 50 - 75 lbs weaning weight on the average.

Rod

 

[dun]

BW also doesn't directly correlate to low weaning weights. Our little jackrabbit 60-75 lb calves weaned off at between 478 and 630, the light one from a heifer that had a 45 lb calf. This is in 137 - 187 days of age at weaning.

Dun, just out of curiosity have you tried increasing your birthweights on those exact same cows and checking your weaning weights? The reason I ask is because I've done that. My experiments with low birth weight calves was only a few years ago, and many of the cows I used then are still around. I've found that increasing my BW by 20 lbs gave me another 50 - 75 lbs weaning weight on the average.

Rod

It may be our bull selection but I'm not a big fan of really high weaning weights. It seems that the heavier BW calves wean only a couple of pounds heavier, if any, then the lighter calves. Years ago we screwed around with the moose size calves, seems that we would have poorer conception in the cows each year then we had the year before. But we don;t creep and we don;t supplement. If she can;t do it on grass, minerals and water she needs a new home.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) It seems that the heavier BW calves wean only a couple of pounds heavier, if any, then the lighter calves.

2) But we don;t creep and we don;t supplement. If she can;t do it on grass, minerals and water she needs a new home.

1) Interesting. Thats the exact opposite of my experience. The heavier calves have a little more weight going onto grass, they get started on grass earlier, and they come off grass with more weight.

2) Nope, neither do I. I'll supplement 3 lbs of oats on my weaned heifer calves during their first winter, just to help them through the -40F weather, but after that they don't get another taste of oats unless I decide to cull them and fatten them for market.

Rod

 

[redfornow]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

Thats a BS reply as you can not sell dead calfs or crippled cows for a premium. BW and Calving ease are the number one thing to look for. If I have a cow that has a 100 pound calf I am culling her I do not want those genetics anywhere around.

 

[redfornow]

CB you are an old fart. lol
Where in my statement did I say that I wouldnt cull because of a 100 pounder? I just said you ARE going to have em.

My post was simple; aim for 75-85 lbs prepare for the swing. I am assuming you have been around this long enough to know that because a bull averages 80 lbs doesnt mean that he has an 80 pounder everytime? (thus the swing)

As a last point CE is about shape not weight, which is what I give a great importance to in my herd. I dont know a cow that could deliver a salt block, but if she could it would only weight 50 lbs. I am interested in the SHAPE of the salt block.

I dont know what part of this is hard to understand or BS.
But maybe you can help me.

MD

 

[jnowack]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

Thats a BS reply as you can not sell dead calfs or crippled cows for a premium. BW and Calving ease are the number one thing to look for. If I have a cow that has a 100 pound calf I am culling her I do not want those genetics anywhere around.

Does that mean you load the bull up and sell him too? Half the genetics are his. Better sell all the other calves out of him too, just to be safe.......since you got the trailer hooked up anyway.

 

[jnowack]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

There is some info in here about calf shape.
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modaa/e1611921.html

I liked the part titled cow size. It talks about calf weight relative to cow weight. I have always thought that if the breed associations would ratio the calf weight to the cows weight you could do more to reduce calving problems, and birthweight than just looking at birthweight and calving ease scores.

 

[redfornow]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

There is some info in here about calf shape.
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modaa/e1611921.html

I liked the part titled cow size. It talks about calf weight relative to cow weight. I have always thought that if the breed associations would ratio the calf weight to the cows weight you could do more to reduce calving problems, and birthweight than just looking at birthweight and calving ease scores.

Yep great info there.

MD

 

[dun]

1) It seems that the heavier BW calves wean only a couple of pounds heavier, if any, then the lighter calves.

2) But we don;t creep and we don;t supplement. If she can;t do it on grass, minerals and water she needs a new home.

1) Interesting. Thats the exact opposite of my experience. The heavier calves have a little more weight going onto grass, they get started on grass earlier, and they come off grass with more weight.
Rod

Since we calve on grass, the littlest or the biggest are eating it well and chewing their cuds by 10-14 days of age.
Most everything in this business is different with different environments and or managment and marketing.

dun

 

[Tod Dague]

Where in my statement did I say that I wouldn't cull because of a 100 pounder?

I don't think you need to cull a cow just because she had a 100 lb. calf. Now if she had to be helped that is a different story. We don't have many that are born over 100 lb but we have only had problems with one and it was breach. I like for a heifer to have a calf under 80 lb. They just seem to do better. As for the cows I don't worry about them, but I don't use mega BW bulls on them either.

 

[Caustic Burno]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

Thats a BS reply as you can not sell dead calfs or crippled cows for a premium. BW and Calving ease are the number one thing to look for. If I have a cow that has a 100 pound calf I am culling her I do not want those genetics anywhere around.

Does that mean you load the bull up and sell him too? Half the genetics are his. Better sell all the other calves out of him too, just to be safe.......since you got the trailer hooked up anyway.

You show your ignorance with each post. Do you even own any cows.
Anyone that has ran cows more than 30 days knows you can put a low BW bull on cows and still have some anomolies. You don't want these.

 

[Nebraska Sandhills]

we aim for 65-80 lb calves for first calf heifers, and 80-95 lb. calves for cows. sometimes get some over 100 lbs. but we dont get too alarmed. alot of the cows are really bred up performance wise--which causes birth weights to creep up after you stack generations of growth sires. We are willing to have a little more birth weight for higher performance cattle, but to each his own.

 

[TSR]

Why give mom more potential problems with a 95-100 lb calf which will most likely not exceed the above WW and most often will not match it.

Big calves at birth can create problems.

If your cows have trouble with 95-100 lb calves, and they're not small framed (under 11 or 1200 lbs), then you've got other problems. For a few short years, I bred those jackrabbit calves, thinking I was ahead of the game, but I was only fooling myself.

If your bull is phenotypically correct for calving ease, a 95 - 100 lb calf will give you more lbs at weaning time and the incidents of dystocia will be no higher than if you breed those 70 lbers. And if your nutrition level is correct, those 95 lb calves will be up and sucking just as quickly as a 70 lb calf. My critters are all medium framed (FS4's and 5's), and routinely deliver 90 - 110 lb calves unassisted. Most of my heifers deliver 10 - 11% of their weight unassisted.

Rod

Rod, I have also seen 70-75 lb calves cause big birthing problems.

Let them keep having those 60 lb calves and keep the heifers for a few years.................................

they won't be able breed their cows to a goat. :lol: :lol:

Pelvic size is the key to easy calving.

Not necessarily "COW" size.

Rod , How many of your bull customers (assuming you do sell some seedstock) want to buy those bulls with 90-100 lb birthweights??

I agree Mike that pelvic size does play a role as well as nutrition, time of the year being born, phenotype of bull as Rod mentioned. So I like to keep everything moderate 70-80 lbs tops for me. But each to his own. BTW I have about 3 generations of those type of heifers you mentioned not being able to breed to a goat. Most are being bred to a +4.2 bull.

 

[redfornow]

BW gets to much attention.
Try to keep it under 100 lbs and you should be fine.
75-85 is perfect, but we all know the bull that averages 80 will give you a 120 and a 50 at times in the same year.
Had that very thing happen this year with the clean up bull.

I worry more about shape. But thats just me....

MD

Thats a BS reply as you can not sell dead calfs or crippled cows for a premium. BW and Calving ease are the number one thing to look for. If I have a cow that has a 100 pound calf I am culling her I do not want those genetics anywhere around.

Does that mean you load the bull up and sell him too? Half the genetics are his. Better sell all the other calves out of him too, just to be safe.......since you got the trailer hooked up anyway.

You show your ignorance with each post. Do you even own any cows.
Anyone that has ran cows more than 30 days knows you can put a low BW bull on cows and still have some anomolies. You don't want these.

That was my point CB, even the best bull will toss you something to think about. So I worry about shape,at least as much or more than BW.
Somehow this is BS, you didnt answer my last post I assume you are willing to admit that you are full of crap?


MD