BW

[dun]

Besidess the obvious difference in environments, you have to forage issue. Our grass gets growing pretty well by nid marxh and really hits it' stride in april and may. By late may it's beginning to slow down. June-august there is almost nil growth. MEarly to mid september it starts again for about a month then then slows down to the point that all there is available is stockpiled grass. If it's left ungrazed there will be very slow growth during a lot of the winter. But if it's been grazed once, that inch or 2 of growth during the winter doesn't account for much.

dun

 

[cypressfarms]

Only forage problems we have is if the rain slows down. You can easily get 8 to 9 months of grazing here. Plant ryegrass and you may get 9 to 10. This is, ofcourse assuming that our frequent rains stay frequent.

The ironic thing is that it would seem if any part of the country (or Canada) would support large cows, it would be down here. However, as proven, northern born calves will be heavier.

I assume that with less months for cattle to forage, efficiency of those cattle would be essential (more so than down south), and that in general, larger framed cattle will cost more to raise and maintain. If this is true, why wouldn't our friends up north want small to moderate framed cows instead of 1400 lb behemoths?

 

[dun]

why wouldn't our friends up north want small to moderate framed cows instead of 1400 lb behemoths?

I think it may have to do with the requirement for keeping warm. A bigger aniaml will have a bigger furnace to generate heat to keep the life signs going

dun

 

[redfornow]

[/quote]
Well how about the tall tales that loose one calf in four years. If you only lost one calf in four years you can bet they don't own many cows. Loose more than that to predation a year unless you run your herd in the suburb.quote]



Its called management and it works.

Rather than put down what others are doing if yo arnt getting the same results, try learnin something,
I am in this for the money, so live and heavy thats the goal

MD

 

[redfornow]

We never have to deal with this. Which leads me to the next point, that I should have brought up before.....Calves born in the north will be heavier. It's a proven fact. What I haven't seen, however, are any studies which show a corresponding increase in calving difficulty in the north.

I don't believe there will be a study showing much extra calving difficulty, simply because most of us select our cattle to allow for the additional calf weight. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I tried breeding the little 70 and 80 lbers, and I didn't like the results.

What drives me crazy though, is as a seedstock producer, we have people making statements like "you have to follow your livestock around with calving chains" as soon as they see BW's nearing 100 lbs. Its just not so. Proper cow selection, proper bull conformation, combined with 90 - 100lb birthweights = better calf survivability, better weaning weights, and more bucks in your pocket, at least in Northern US and Canadian climates.

Rod

Rod

What you said in that post would work anywhere.
Its called management and it works.

MD

Well how about the tall tales that loose one calf in four years. If you only lost one calf in four years you can bet they don't own many cows. Loose more than that to predation a year unless you run your herd in the suburb.

I wish I could only lose 1 calf in 4 years. I've only lost 6 so far this year, haven't seen a coyote all year, but then again, winter hasn't come around yet :roll: ...that's when the calves will started "disappearing"

I dont know how you turn a profit, I hope you dont lose that many every year? We all have bad years, that sounds like a tough one. Hard to turn a profit loosing that many.
MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well how about the tall tales that loose one calf in four years. If you only lost one calf in four years you can bet they don't own many cows. Loose more than that to predation a year unless you run your herd in the suburb.quote]



Its called management and it works.

Rather than put down what others are doing if yo arnt getting the same results, try learnin something,
I am in this for the money, so live and heavy thats the goal

MD[/quote]

Taken from an TAMU site.
Total impact of calving difficulty greater than imagined
Incidence of calving problems. In most herds that choose moderate to low birth weight EPD bulls for their cows, calving problems (dystocia) run about 1 to 5%. However, in first-calf heifers, dystocia runs 5 to 20% even in herds that use low birth weight EPD bulls. Incidence of dystocia in herds that don't pay attention to birth weight EPD's of sires can run as high as 50 to 75%. That's why heifers need extra observation. In addition, heifers don't necessarily give as good an indication that they are beginning the calving process.

Calves that experience calving difficulty are less healthy. Delay during delivery cause calves to be more susceptible to illness or death shortly after birth. Researchers from Nebraska and Colorado indicated that mortality is increased by 15 to 30% in calves that experience calving difficulty. In addition, calves will take longer to get up and nurse if they experience a difficult birth.

Cows and heifers that experience calving difficulty will be delayed in rebreeding. Two studies with 220 cows in Montana examined the effects of assisting cows at the first sign of calving problems with letting cows struggle before assisting. In these studies, calf growth rate was not affected by duration of labor. However, cows and heifers, that were assisted early, bred back earlier (Table 2.). In addition, overall pregnancy rates were decreased by 13-14% percent by allowing cows to struggle.

Hard to learn from someone that thinks birthweights are BS and calving losses beat the entire national average, your either a cattle genuis or your trying to blow smoke. I am going with smoke.

 

[randiliana]

Only forage problems we have is if the rain slows down. You can easily get 8 to 9 months of grazing here. Plant ryegrass and you may get 9 to 10. This is, ofcourse assuming that our frequent rains stay frequent.

The ironic thing is that it would seem if any part of the country (or Canada) would support large cows, it would be down here. However, as proven, northern born calves will be heavier.

I assume that with less months for cattle to forage, efficiency of those cattle would be essential (more so than down south), and that in general, larger framed cattle will cost more to raise and maintain. If this is true, why wouldn't our friends up north want small to moderate framed cows instead of 1400 lb behemoths?

That is true, and generally the larger the cow the harder she is to keep over winter. Our herd ranges from 950lb to probably 1400 lb, but the majority are in the 1150-1250 range. We sold(culled) what I thought was one of our larger cows this spring and she weighed in at about 1150(shrunk), and to this point we have never sold anything heavier than 1300 lbs. Of course that is only the cull cows.

As for the BW I and a number of our friends don't like seeing the teeny tiny under 80 lb calves. We calve when it is cold, and even April can be cold up here, and the little guys just can't hack it if there is a problem. The big 90+ lb calves will last a lot longer if you happen to have a slow one. I have packed those 65 lb calves into the house to warm them out and it is a looong trip. The only time I can remember having 90+lb calves in the house was when it was -35 outside one night, then we hauled them all in, and we had 6 babies inside that night.

Calving diffuculty can be avoided simply by culling anything that can't handle the big BW's, and by using properly shaped bulls. I don't mind helping out a cow occaisonally, and the vast majority are malpresentations, leg back, upside down, or backwards. If a cow can't handle a 100 lb calf here she is gone. That is a pelvic size problem, and by selecting calves from cows that can handle the bigger calves you can easily build up a herd of cows that have room. We yabked a 66 lb calf out of a heifer this spring, we weren't impressed, it was one of the hardest pulls this spring (we had to use the calf puller), so smaller doesn't always equal easier calving. She tastes pretty darn good though ;-)

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

why wouldn't our friends up north want small to moderate framed cows instead of 1400 lb behemoths?

I think it may have to do with the requirement for keeping warm. A bigger aniaml will have a bigger furnace to generate heat to keep the life signs going

I'm not sure if the pictures on this forum are indicative of your typical southern cattle, however from what I've seen, we carry _alot_ more volume with most of our livestock. So while we may have 1200 - 1400 lb "behemoths" (I'm still chuckling over that. Behemoths to me are 1800 or 1900 lb FS 8 cows.), they're usually only FS 4 - 5. We need that volume to allow the cows to carry weight over the cold winter months, and its been my experience that high volume cows are easier keeping, not just during the winter, but during the summer too.

As commercial guys, we also need to satisfy our customers. The feedlots don't like small feeders, as the packing plants want big carcasses up here. Its tough to get an 800 lb carcass from a 1000 lb steer.

Rod

 

[Caustic Burno]

why wouldn't our friends up north want small to moderate framed cows instead of 1400 lb behemoths?

I think it may have to do with the requirement for keeping warm. A bigger aniaml will have a bigger furnace to generate heat to keep the life signs going

I'm not sure if the pictures on this forum are indicative of your typical southern cattle, however from what I've seen, we carry _alot_ more volume with most of our livestock. So while we may have 1200 - 1400 lb "behemoths" (I'm still chuckling over that. Behemoths to me are 1800 or 1900 lb FS 8 cows.), they're usually only FS 4 - 5. We need that volume to allow the cows to carry weight over the cold winter months, and its been my experience that high volume cows are easier keeping, not just during the winter, but during the summer too.

As commercial guys, we also need to satisfy our customers. The feedlots don't like small feeders, as the packing plants want big carcasses up here. Its tough to get an 800 lb carcass from a 1000 lb steer.

Rod

You are fighting cold versus us heat.
Look at the game a whitetail deer in your neck of the woods is huge in ours about the size of a german Shepard.

 

[KNERSIE]

We are also fighting the heat and drought in summer and although high volume stocky cows also works best in our conditions I have to agree with CB that the area will ultimately dictate mature size.

We are in a very hot dry area with acidic soils and cattle over here will always mature 1-2 frame sizes smaller than in most other areas in SA. The genetics being exactly the same.

if I want frame 4-5 cows I must use a frame 6 bull. The only good thing about this is if I sell a young bull he will most always mature into a much more impressive animal in his new home, which makes for happy customers, but difficult advertising.

 

[dun]

I'm not sure if the pictures on this forum are indicative of your typical southern cattle, however from what I've seen, we carry _alot_ more volume with most of our livestock. So while we may have 1200 - 1400 lb "behemoths" (I'm still chuckling over that. Behemoths to me are 1800 or 1900 lb FS 8 cows.), they're usually only FS 4 - 5. Rod

I'm glad to see that someone agrees with me that weight is a P poor method of comparing cattle. I'll take the 1500 lb FS 5-5.5 vs the the 1200 fs 6.5-7.

dun

 

[redfornow]

rather than put down what I am doing if I am beating the national average ( I dont know that I am I havnt done the math)
Learn from my experiences.
An old dog can learn new tricks.
You will see.


MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

rather than put down what I am doing if I am beating the national average ( I dont know that I am I havnt done the math)
Learn from my experiences.
An old dog can learn new tricks.
You will see.


MD

First have to get someone smarter than the old dog to teach the tricks that aint you. You come on with a BS post about BW and then the calving percentage anyone that believes that hasn't ran many cows.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'm glad to see that someone agrees with me that weight is a P poor method of comparing cattle. I'll take the 1500 lb FS 5-5.5 vs the the 1200 fs 6.5-7.

Hell, I don't even want the 1500 lb fs 6.5 animal. Those tall, skinny, pencil gutted pieces of junk simply melt away up here.

I think what happens Dun is that guys get comparing weights, but forget there are different frame score animals in other parts of the world. While we certainly have FS 2 and 3 cows up here, and some FS 7 and 8 cows, most of the herds are 4s and 5s. So when you get comparing animals, you compare weights. When I start babbling weights, I often forget to add in the frame score.

Rod

 

[redfornow]

rather than put down what I am doing if I am beating the national average ( I dont know that I am I havnt done the math)
Learn from my experiences.
An old dog can learn new tricks.
You will see.


MD

First have to get someone smarter than the old dog to teach the tricks that aint you. You come on with a BS post about BW and then the calving percentage anyone that believes that hasn't ran many cows.

Whatever you need to think...
MD

 

[S.R.R.]

Just to throw a small twist in here. Not all of us northern ranchers believe that you need to have large cattle because of the cold weather. Some of us have lost our fear of hair and are finding that we can raise the type of easy fleshing, well marbled, lower input cow that say an Angus or Hereford may be by allowing a bit of hair on our cattle. One prime example of this that you can see on the net is Randy Kaisers ranch! http://www.westernrancher.com/CelticCattle.html . I am sure purecountry, myself and any others that have had the pleasure of raising cattle like the Welsh Black, Galloway, or Highland cross will tell you that they eat less then your average large northern cow and yet have a very good weaning weight to cow weight ratio! ( Trust me guys hair on your cattle is not like hair on your women it ain't all bad!! ;-) )

 

[redfornow]

( Trust me guys hair on your cattle is not like hair on your women it ain't all bad!! ;-) )

SRR

That is just funny!!!!!

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

One prime example of this that you can see on the net is Randy Kaisers ranch! http://www.westernrancher.com/CelticCattle.html .

Having talked with Randy a bit, I don't think he's saying much different than I am, although he and I haven't had a good discussion of birthweights. I believe most of his cows are in that 1200 lb FS4 (maybe 3.5) range. Excellent volume and tough critters for sure. I still plan to buy a Welsh bull to breed to my Shorthorn cows for my commercial herd.

Rod

 

[dun]

I think what happens Dun is that guys get comparing weights, but forget there are different frame score animals in other parts of the world. While we certainly have FS 2 and 3 cows up here, and some FS 7 and 8 cows, most of the herds are 4s and 5s. So when you get comparing animals, you compare weights. When I start babbling weights, I often forget to add in the frame score.

Rod

That's frequently the problem. People start talking weights and even frame scores but lose sight of the fact that each area has different requirements. Other then a couple of cows, ours run around FS 5.6-6. If I wanted to sell calves from anyhting much smaller I would have to use a really framey bull. The market for small framed or even smallish medium framed calves just doesn't pay. The buyers don;t want the really large, large frames but they also don;pt want the smaller then medium, medium calves and only muscle of 1-2. Muscle 3 or small framed calves are docked heavily.
A friend of mine (yes I actually do have a firend) got a bull from Pharo and is really pleased with it. Fertile, small frame, gets the cows bred, all on just pasture. What he doesn;t like is the dock he gets when he sells the calves. He's pretty much decided to use the Pharo bull for generating heifers and use a terminal bull for the others. That will put him in the same boat as people using Brahman bulls on Hereford cows. He'll gt good heifers that have ahigh value and steers that will kill him at the sale barn.
We've just decided a long time ago to stay with the medium frame cows, but heavy for their frame and have decent value in all of the calves.
Just different managment styles and decisions.

dun

 

[S.R.R.]

One prime example of this that you can see on the net is Randy Kaisers ranch! http://www.westernrancher.com/CelticCattle.html .

I still plan to buy a Welsh bull to breed to my Shorthorn cows for my commercial herd.

Rod

You will not be sorry! My WB bulls have all come from Randy Scott the VP of the WBA but I plan on looking at a bull from R. Kaiser in the future for a change in blood lines!