BW in Angus breed

[animalsci2011]

Ok I see people all the time selling animals on craigslist or in sale catalogs that they call calving ease bulls, heifer bulls, etc.. My question is to fellow Angus breeders is what do you consider a heifer/calving ease bull (Its kinda an oxymoron since angus have small calves anyways)? And the second question (I know I didn't number them) is what good does a calving ease bull do if his Yearly and WW are so small that nobody will buy the calves once they are out? Where I am everyone thinks they are experts on EPD's, I tend to laugh at them since if I ask them any technical question I know the answer to they can't answer it but thats another topic altogether. Ok sorry for any misspelled words you find I am not an english major, lol. Anyways just wanted ya'lls input have at it. I'll chime in later. Have a great day guys.

 

[M.Magis]

I think "calving ease" on Craigslist just means they weren't there when the bull was born, and since he survived he's certain to pass that "trait" along. :roll:
I'm certainly no breeder, but I thought the AAA had pretty clear definitions regarding what their EPDs mean.

 

[bse]

A special heifer sale close to me the bull used has to have a CED 10 or more not picky on BW. To me I look at the pedigree to see if theres something there that could throw a bigger calf I have no problem with a BW of 2 maybe 2.5 on heifers.
The thing with the spread from BW to YW is a lot of folks don't want to keep those first calves so no big deal. I think also folks read to much into low BW if you go to a sale the low BW bulls usually outsale the moderates with some growth and they will take the bulls home use them on mature cows and leave some dollars on the table. There are some bulls out there that will do both low BW and some growth.

 

[cow pollinater]

If you adjust for across breed epd's, three quarters of the angus breed looks great on calving ease and the other quarter is not so bad. If you adjust for across breed epd's, half the breed can hold their own on growth and the other half is only off by a few pounds. I don't want to sound like an angus pimp but they are pretty much the do-everything breed right now. It is really easy to find true calving ease angus bulls that still provide pounds of weaned calf similar or better than most other breeds at just about any bull sale.

 

[robert]

You get what you select for, I don't worry too much about bw, there are several factors that contribute to calving ease, not least gestation length and the will of the heifer to lay down and push that calf out, obsessing over the weight of the calf if the heifer had it on her own without tearing herself up makes little sense. Naturally the cow will try and produce 5 to 7% of her bodyweight as deliverable calf so a 1000lb 2yo ought to be able to spit out a 60 to 70lb calf with ease, and another 7 or 10 lbs shouldn't kill her.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Naturally the cow will try and produce 5 to 7% of her bodyweight as deliverable calf so a 1000lb 2yo ought to be able to spit out a 60 to 70lb calf with ease, and another 7 or 10 lbs shouldn't kill her.

and if she can't it's time for a new cow.

 

[animalsci2011]

I think I am in the same boat as most of you. bse you are definitely right about the "calving ease" bulls will definitely outsell the moderate ones. I tend to not be as worried about it myself I like to focus more on yearly and weaning weight myself. Sure I want small calves as birth, reasonably small that is, but looking at across breed EPDs I wouldn't say many angus bulls would be called difficult calvers. Now sure I won't use a bull that is over lets say 4.0 on BW unless it was one of my older, wider hipped cows. I just see too many people writing off really good bulls just because their BW EPD is above 2.5 or something. Genetics are one thing but when a man is running commerical cows and has mostly older cows he needs to focus alot more on other things. Thats just my opinion though, people can agree or not.

 

[Jake]

I think I am in the same boat as most of you. bse you are definitely right about the "calving ease" bulls will definitely outsell the moderate ones. I tend to not be as worried about it myself I like to focus more on yearly and weaning weight myself. Sure I want small calves as birth, reasonably small that is, but looking at across breed EPDs I wouldn't say many angus bulls would be called difficult calvers. Now sure I won't use a bull that is over lets say 4.0 on BW unless it was one of my older, wider hipped cows. I just see too many people writing off really good bulls just because their BW EPD is above 2.5 or something. Genetics are one thing but when a man is running commerical cows and has mostly older cows he needs to focus alot more on other things. Thats just my opinion though, people can agree or not.

Unless you have really small pelvic cows I wouldn't worry about an angus BW up to about +7. There's not much difference between a 0 and a +2 there is even less difference between a +4 and a +7 in my experience

 

[ousoonerfan22]

Timeless has a 4 ced and 5.1 bw epd and we have 6 calves out him in the last month and only one calf would have weighed more than 70 lbs and that was a bull calf out of a cow with a 2.3 bw epd.
Do you know of anybody still using the Rito 9969 bull? His ced is -11 and bw is 6.8

 

[Jake]

Timeless has a 4 ced and 5.1 bw epd and we have 6 calves out him in the last month and only one calf would have weighed more than 70 lbs and that was a bull calf out of a cow with a 2.3 bw epd.
Do you know of anybody still using the Rito 9969 bull? His ced is -11 and bw is 6.8

I think he is getting plenty of use for the amount of BW he is carrying. Not really much different than your average Charolais bull. People just get scared of numbers outside of the normal promotion and commotion.

This abs sire would be about the same as 9969 if you use MARCs adjustments
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/charol ... o=29CH0195

 

[Stocker Steve]

A.I. catalog tells us if the bull is calving ease :nod: and that is where I go with heifers.

I usually buy bulls with + BW epds for the cow herd because most folks are afraid of them.

 

[robert]

if we are looking at outside genetics we generally don't use over a +3 on heifers, though with our own stock I really don't pay attention to the EPDs as they don't trump experience / knowledge of the dam lines. The only reason not to use more than +5 on cows is marketability of progeny in the registered herd as the promotion and guidelines given in general by associations and universities about EPD's has got people unnecessarily afraid of using higher bwepd bulls. In performance terms I see calves out of cows being an additional 8 to 10lbs of weaning weight heavier for every additional 1lb of birthweight on birthweights between 80 and 100lbs. I don't have a problem with over 100lb bw though it seems that as the calves get heavier after that point you end up with dopier, slower to get going calves and the weaning weight advantage is mitigated. We're looking for calving ease and vigor from the get go.

 

[Dave]

This year I bred a bunch of heifers to Top Hand. His epd is for CED is something like 20 and BW is a -2.9 which adds up to really good calving ease numbers. But his WW and YW numbers are right up there with the high end growth bulls. My opinion is for heifers you get the calf out as easy as possible. After that I don't worry about calving ease nearly so much.

 

[vclavin]

A geneticist told me low birthweight and high WW/YW were antagonistic, BUT, there were exceptions to the rule. He said to search out the exceptions.
Calving ease "CED" take all things including actual birthweight into considerations. Beef specialist said this EPD was most accurate. Keep the CED at least 7 ;and try to maintain the CEM at 7 or higher. We get pelvic scores to make sure we are not pulling calves and not losing ground on calving ease. Our aim is highest CED/CEM but maintain BW-0; WW-50, YW-100 ... (plus maintain the carcass qualities)
Blessings
Valerie

 

[DOC HARRIS]

A geneticist told me low birthweight and high WW/YW were antagonistic, BUT, there were exceptions to the rule. He said to search out the exceptions.
Calving ease "CED" take all things including actual birthweight into considerations. Beef specialist said this EPD was most accurate. Keep the CED at least 7 ;and try to maintain the CEM at 7 or higher. We get pelvic scores to make sure we are not pulling calves and not losing ground on calving ease. Our aim is highest CED/CEM but maintain BW-0; WW-50, YW-100 ... (plus maintain the carcass qualities)
Blessings
Valerie

This post by Valerie is a good example of what is meant by "Keeping Characteristics and Traits in Balance". It should be remembered that "Balance" means different things to different breeders. A Registered Producer is focusing his selection decisions on what he considers his purebred market is demanding, and a Terminal Commercial producer is focusing on what HIS feedlot cow/calf producer is expecting - with the "Across Breed" EPD mathematics thrown in for hybrid measure! By throwing all of these "Selection Decisions" into a mixmaster and attempting to pour out a "perfect" menu is a work in progress, and it will continue to be that forever. Selective breeding choices cannot ever be made into a rubber stamp mold and marked with a GUARANTEE label!

Valerie here has worked out an easy-to-remember formula which can be modified (BALANCED, if you will) according to what her market customers needs may be, and according to the EPD's, Phenotype, and Functional Traits that the seedstock COW herd presents. Then, in mixing some other necessary components into the "must have" accessory list (Qualitative and Quantitative Traits and eye-balling "Accuracies" of the seedstock EPD's) - - NOW - one has the perfect formula for achieving success in the Beef Cattle BU$INE$$! That is - - until the old adage of "All Signs Fail in Wet Weather" kicks in. :bang:

The bottom line here in choosing all of these variables is - "You Duz Yer Best, and You Takes Yer Chances". Hopefully , everything works out in your favor more than 50% of the time! But the most important factor here is - You do the best that you can do, given all of the facts at your disposal.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Nesikep]

I tend to agree with robert, but I am admittedly a bit retarded at reading EPD's.

I'm not scared of a bull that has a 90lb BW, even on my heifers, as long as the heifers don't try to make a 120 lb'er out of it, the cows I have can all handle 120 lbs without much grunting. Primary things I look for are things that sale yard buyers can see, Uniformity in build and color (red and/or gold are my choice), length, moderate frames but meaty backs and butts, and for my replacement heifers, I need good hips, udders with teats the calves can find, and hooves that I don't have to worry about. Obviously the traits I want in my steers are going to have to be reflected in my maternal cows as well though.

On calving ease, I tend to concentrate my efforts on keeping cows that do the job no matter what they're carrying, rather than limiting what my bull choices are because of the cows.

When looking at bulls, I found what is far more important than birthweight is head shape... nice slender heads with no protruding eyebrows will make a 100 lb calf come out more easily than a blockheaded, pugnosed 75 lb calf