Bulls who throw hereford marked calves???

[JR Cattle Co.]

I have noticed that the herefords are beginning to make a comeback in the showring... I have never been a huge fan of the breed (no offense), but they just don't seem to have enough gas to compete with the rest. I do however own a pretty good hereford cow. She is a larger framed cow, and I was wanting to try and match her up with a smaller, easier fleshing bull who has a high probability of throwing a hereford marked calf. Any suggestions????

 

[CPL]

Not sure about his frame size, but I saw a group of heifers and a steer by UPS Odyssey 1ET and they were really stout. What about Reload? Personally not a fan of some of these "show" type bulls, but they'll put you in the right direction in the show ring.

 

[JR Cattle Co.]

Thanks for the feedback. Where can I find a pic of UPS Odyssey? I am mainly interested in crossing with a composite or club calf bull who has a high probability of throwing a hereford marked calf, but I may consider a "clubby" herf bull. Any suggestions?

 

[Chris H]

Google his name and you can find his picture and pictures of his progeny.

You don't want a composite that throws a 'hereford marked' calf so you can use a crossbred in a Hereford steer class, do you?

 

[Avalon]

You don't want a composite that throws a 'hereford marked' calf so you can use a crossbred in a Hereford steer class, do you?

Thats what I am wondering. There ae many purebred Herefords out there that will give you a clubby look. But if you are trying to breed a composite that will classify as a hereford (For a steer show). Those days are coming to an end. Two breeds will by next year begin to use DNA for matching the naimal to the breed and parentage.

 

[CPL]

Thanks for the feedback. Where can I find a pic of UPS Odyssey? I am mainly interested in crossing with a composite or club calf bull who has a high probability of throwing a hereford marked calf, but I may consider a "clubby" herf bull. Any suggestions?

http://www.upstreamcattle.com/herdbulls/1et.html

 

[clifflem]

Check out some of Kris Black's Hereford composite bulls. He produces some of the most competitive Hereford marked steers in the country.

 

[JR Cattle Co.]

You don't want a composite that throws a 'hereford marked' calf so you can use a crossbred in a Hereford steer class, do you?

Thats what I am wondering. There ae many purebred Herefords out there that will give you a clubby look. But if you are trying to breed a composite that will classify as a hereford (For a steer show). Those days are coming to an end. Two breeds will by next year begin to use DNA for matching the naimal to the breed and parentage.

Yes I am. If hereford breeders have a problem with showing against a "hereford marked" composite calf, then they should just stick to breed association shows. The whole point in showing in a market class is to utilize heterosis (hybrid vigor) by crossbreeding to produce a steer that is superior to all others. Stick to the hereford shows if you are afraid your calf won't have enough gas to compete. Just my opinion, take it how you want.

 

[Avalon]

You don't want a composite that throws a 'hereford marked' calf so you can use a crossbred in a Hereford steer class, do you?

Thats what I am wondering. There ae many purebred Herefords out there that will give you a clubby look. But if you are trying to breed a composite that will classify as a hereford (For a steer show). Those days are coming to an end. Two breeds will by next year begin to use DNA for matching the naimal to the breed and parentage.

Yes I am. If hereford breeders have a problem with showing against a "hereford marked" composite calf, then they should just stick to breed association shows. The whole point in showing in a market class is to utilize heterosis (hybrid vigor) by crossbreeding to produce a steer that is superior to all others. Stick to the hereford shows if you are afraid your calf won't have enough gas to compete. Just my opinion, take it how you want.

You may have missed my point. and I may have missed yours. I raise composites as well as purebreds. In Texas (at the Majors), if you sign up a steer as Angus. According to Association and Fair rules. He must be a purebred. Other wise he must be shown in AOB. What I was pointing out is that in the future more shows and associations will use stricter testing procedures to enforce rules. Nothing else. I love a good composite as much as anyone else. But I will not pass a maine Angus off as an Angus.

 

[Chris H]

You don't want a composite that throws a 'hereford marked' calf so you can use a crossbred in a Hereford steer class, do you?

Thats what I am wondering. There ae many purebred Herefords out there that will give you a clubby look. But if you are trying to breed a composite that will classify as a hereford (For a steer show). Those days are coming to an end. Two breeds will by next year begin to use DNA for matching the naimal to the breed and parentage.

Yes I am. If hereford breeders have a problem with showing against a "hereford marked" composite calf, then they should just stick to breed association shows. The whole point in showing in a market class is to utilize heterosis (hybrid vigor) by crossbreeding to produce a steer that is superior to all others. Stick to the hereford shows if you are afraid your calf won't have enough gas to compete. Just my opinion, take it how you want.

As long as you stick to showing your crossbreds in a crossbred class, at ANY show, breed what you want. But don't lie and cheat by entering your CROSSBREDS in a BREED show; county fair, jackpot, national show, it doesn't matter -- if you enter a CROSSBRED in a PUREBRED class, then you are CHEATING. Great way to make a name for yourself -- NOT!

 

[JR Cattle Co.]

I think your argument as to "cheating" is just a way for you to passify having an inferior "purebred" calf. In the end, the best will show... I have never seen a grand drive that is breed specific. If you really feel this way, stick to breed association shows, if not, then don't cry when your purebred gets hammered by a crossbred!!

 

[Avalon]

If you are not trying to show a crossbred in a "hereford" class then I have no problem with what you are doing. Once again as stated earlier. I like Maine - Angus crosses but I show them in the AOB. I do not try to pass them off as Angus. Our shows state that if you claim he is Angus he is suppose to be Angus. Same with Herefords.

 

[Chris H]

I think your argument as to "cheating" is just a way for you to passify having an inferior "purebred" calf. In the end, the best will show... I have never seen a grand drive that is breed specific. If you really feel this way, stick to breed association shows, if not, then don't cry when your purebred gets hammered by a crossbred!!

No, my point about your cheating was just that, you are cheating if you enter a crossbred in a purebred class. You don't like being called a cheater? Then do not cheat. If the only way that you can win is to enter a crossbred in the purebred class, then you are an inferior breeder.

You said previously, "The whole point in showing in a market class is to utilize heterosis (hybrid vigor) by crossbreeding to produce a steer that is superior to all others." Well, I happen to agree with that. But the whole point of having purebred classes, even in steer shows, is to develop a breed to it's maximum potential. The fact is, the Hereford breed excels as a mother cow raising commercial calves under tough conditions. Some will even perform excellently as the mother of a crossbred calf that will compete in crossbred classes.

I have a friend that raises those high-powered club calves. He cut 30% of the calves out of his heifers this year. Want to know how many calves we've cut out of our Herefords? Zero. So, use the Hereford as a base for some good crossbreds and see if you are a good enough breeder to be competetive without cheating.

 

[JR Cattle Co.]

And my point is, the overall objective in raising cattle is to produce the best possible animal. In a show, they all have to go up against eachother in the end. Look at the grand drive in any show... how many times does a crossbred outperform a purebred?? If you haven't caught on to the trend by now, it might be time to open your eyes- Pay attention and you will see. An inferior breeder would do exactly what you are saying, and try to find a way to avoid showing against the best in the barn. It (your argument)seems to be a convenient way for you to passify having an inferior animal. All I am saying, is that if you want to be the best, you have to compete with the best. Now, if the time comes where it is required to DNA test your market animals, then I would be all for it, but until that time comes...I will not set myself or my customers up for failure and bring a knife into a gun fight.

 

[phillse]

Other than using a hereford bull, it will be a toss up, maybe maybe not.

best chance is probably a Red baldie Simmental, but you never know for sure.

I for one have had hereford colored calves out of a herford cow bred to a Simmental Bull and a solid red Shorthorn bull.

However they same cow also produce mottle (brockle)faced calves out of the same two bulls.

Sometimes it is just a guess. Inprove your odds with selection but in the end you will only know when the calf hits the ground.

 

[Moocow11]

JR Cattle Co. you are the kind of peope we dont need in cattle. You want a bull that will through hereford marked calves (even though the bull my only be 1/4 hereford) so you can go and breed your cows and get a hereford looking calf to go and sell and tell your customers that he is a purebred hereford. So you just want to cheat so you can win. do you have any morals? what about ethics?

 

[fit2btied]

I had to look back through the thread - started thinking it was about CAB for a minute there.

 

[Chris H]

JR, you seem to think Herefords are inferior, but the only way you can beat one is to use a crossbred in the purebred classes?

I don't know about where you show, but every place we go they have breed shows & crossbred shows. Yes, in the final drive the champion of each division competes for grand champion. On occasion, Herefords are in the top two, sometimes grand. If your crossbred can compete against other crossbreds, then compete, but don't cheat.

 

[JR Cattle Co.]

JR Cattle Co. you are the kind of peope we dont need in cattle. You want a bull that will through hereford marked calves (even though the bull my only be 1/4 hereford) so you can go and breed your cows and get a hereford looking calf to go and sell and tell your customers that he is a purebred hereford. So you just want to cheat so you can win. do you have any morals? what about ethics?

Moocow11, you are the kind of (oh by the way "people" is not spelled "peope", and throw is not spelled "through") people that need to take english class again...Yeah, that's exactly what I want to do, sell a club calf to a person who doesn't have the knowledge to ask who the calf is out of, that way I can have an ignorant person like you raising the calves I produce---NOT. What I do want to do, unlike many people in this industry, is to sell the best possible animal to the customer. Most people try to push their crappy calves first, just like a used car salesman. If trying to give the customer the best quality product possible is considered having no morals or ethics, then feel free to call me that, but don't use hypotheticals like " telling my customers that a crossbred is a purebred". If you would like to continue having a conversation with me about this topic, then please make it an intelligent one by making valid arguments. And by the way, proper spelling might help.

 

[Circle B Cattle]

JR Cattle Co. you are the kind of peope we dont need in cattle. You want a bull that will through hereford marked calves (even though the bull my only be 1/4 hereford) so you can go and breed your cows and get a hereford looking calf to go and sell and tell your customers that he is a purebred hereford. So you just want to cheat so you can win. do you have any morals? what about ethics?

Moocow11, you are the kind of (oh by the way "people" is not spelled "peope", and throw is not spelled "through") people that need to take english class again...Yeah, that's exactly what I want to do, sell a club calf to a person who doesn't have the knowledge to ask who the calf is out of, that way I can have an ignorant person like you raising the calves I produce---NOT. What I do want to do, unlike many people in this industry, is to sell the best possible animal to the customer. Most people try to push their crappy calves first, just like a used car salesman. If trying to give the customer the best quality product possible is considered having no morals or ethics, then feel free to call me that, but don't use hypotheticals like " telling my customers that a crossbred is a purebred". If you would like to continue having a conversation with me about this topic, then please make it an intelligent one by making valid arguments. And by the way, proper spelling might help.

Okay now lets stop and look at this, the fact of the matter is to be competitive, you have to use what works. Most purebred animals do not stand up against the combination of breeds. The idea is to develope the animal that fulfills the demanding charecteristics. Face it, the show ring is not a fair game, its a competition. In all reality, a market class is based solely upon phenotype and not genetic composition. How many times was an exhibitor required to show registration papers in a steer class?