BSE trail goes cold

[Oldtimer]

Producer driven..federally enforced mandatory i.d program.

Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance and get government permission to own a goat, chicken, pig, sheep, etc. -- even your own consumption??

Head injury was it :?:

frenchie- actually he isn't far off...When you register each of your premises they require a GPS reading for location- and the initial NAIS proposal includes cattle, horses, chicken, pigs, sheep, goats, bison, turkeys, geese and ducks and possibly even some types of animals that are raised as pets.....

 

[frenchie]

The current range of tests being used are designed to pick up B.s.e in animals over 20 months or older.The majority of slaughter feeder cattle are under that in age.

Oh, and we're at the final frontier of testing are we?? :roll:

Maybe 'we' could spend some of the wasted NAIS money to develop a faster, cheaper, more accurate BSE test..

(I use the term 'we' very loosely there, given that we're not talking about 'our' taxdollars -- we're talking about *MY* taxdollars.. You being Canadian and all.)

frenchie- how about the older cattle... Japan has indicated that they will take cattle of ALL ages if tested.......

I don,t have a problem with giving a consumer what he wants..If you want to test fine.

3 concerns though.

#1 who is going to pay for this ... likely the rancher

#2 the type of test currently used..How can you give the impression that the meat is free of the B.S.E agent..When the test is not designed for that class of animal.Think about this if we are to believe the experts that suggest B.S.E infection occurs at an early age in an animals life.If we believe a B.S.e infected animal Isn,t safe to eat at 20 plus months. Why would we knowingly use a test that won,t work on that same infected animal at a younger age..It does not make sense Its false advertising.


One last comment.. For all this hype about B.S.E a little over a 100 people died in Britian from a population of over 50 million..

 

[frenchie]

Producer driven..federally enforced mandatory i.d program.

Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance and get government permission to own a goat, chicken, pig, sheep, etc. -- even your own consumption??

Head injury was it :?:

frenchie- actually he isn't far off...When you register each of your premises they require a GPS reading for location- and the initial NAIS proposal includes cattle, horses, chicken, pigs, sheep, goats, bison, turkeys, geese and ducks and possibly even some types of animals that are raised as pets.....

Ot ..up here the gov,t can find anybodies operation , their G.P.S co-ordinates, type of operation or operations all online.This includes satelliate photos.pretty much everything up here is I.Ded somehow.How do I know that I have a brother That works for the federal goverment.

The day will likely come when stock will all be micro-chipped in the shoulder.

 

[cmjust0]

God forbid you don,t use the eyes God gave you to read the numbers clearly printed on the tag yourself.

Not me, the folks at the salebarn.. And what if the legible part of the tag is made illegible somehow? It's not like you're looking at a huge "128" like regular tags.. Maybe you're eyesight is better than mine, though. :roll:

And as far as the virus thing goes, some RFID tags are read only, some aren't... The supposition that the reader itself is read only is utterly rediculous.. If it were read only, it couldn't take input, which means it couldn't read anything. You can try to debate this with me, but you should know that I've been writing software since I was 16.. I'm pretty sure I know what read only means.. :lol:

 

[cmjust0]

I will guarentee you that if the U.S.D.A were to enforce blanket testing the C.F.I.A would follow their lead and enforce it up here.That is a concern for the Canuks..Who the h3LL do you think Is going to pay for this testing. it won,t be the packers..it will be ranchers.

Bottom line ..The same packers operate on both sides of the border.

What do you think, that CWT price of a steer would go down as a result of an order buyer anticipating the cost of testing the carcass? :roll: PUUUHLEASE.. That cost would get passed right on to the consumer... Just think about what a massive price fixing conspiracy it would take to drive market down as a result of carcass testing..

Jeezz.. And you guys accuse ME of watching for black helicopters?!? :lol:

 

[cmjust0]

Head injury was it

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance, and get permission from the government to raise a chicken, goat, pig, sheep, etc., for your own consumption??

I'm waiting for your answer..

 

[Dave]

One of my several concerns about the program is what happens when cattle prices go down. When this happens as it has in the past there are times when dairy bull calves are literally free. So how many dairy farmers are going to put a $5 ear tag into a calf to give it away? They will knock them in the head. On one hand this will help bring the market back as there will be less cattle on the market. But what will the PETA people do if they figure out there is a Gov't program that causes farmers to kill and dump new born calves?
Dave

 

[cmjust0]

Dave - Seems like you'd have three options.. Pay somebody to take it, give it away without a tag and be an NAIS lawbreaker, or kill it and be an animal cruelty lawbreaker.. Doesn't bode well, huh?


frenchie -- I'm still waiting for my answer... I'll hound you until I get one, you know that right?

 

[bwflonghorns]

Worancher.. I have read up on this.. and u? The numbers I quoted came from a Kansas Univerisity Report... Here is an interesting list come the NAIS folks themselves.. THe animals and "Events" that must be reported

:stop: The starting list is on page 15 of the standards,

National Animal Identification System – Draft Program Standards Page 15
List Codes
Certain fields are predefined for list standards that would allow the data to be selected and stored consistently.
Such list standards are presented below.

:stop: :stop: these are the critters to be "identified"
Species
Code Description Code Description
AQU Aquaculture CER Cervids
CLM Clams DEE Deer
CRA Crawfish ELK Elk
CTF Catfish EQU Equine (Horses) 1
MSL Mussels OVI Ovine (Sheep)
OYS Oysters POR Porcine (Swine)
SAL Salmon POU Poultry
SBA Striped Bass CHI Chickens
SHR Shrimp DUC Ducks
SLP Scallops GEE Geese
TIL Tilapia GUI Guineas
TRO Trout PGN Pigeon
BOV Bovine (Bison and Cattle) PHE Pheasants
CAM Camelid (Alpaca and Llama) QUA Quail
CAP Caprine (Goats) TUR Turkeys
1 Equine industry will expand as necessary


:stop: National Animal Identification System – Draft Program Standards Page 13

(T)attoo, required if alternate identification
(field 15) is provided,

R(E)eplacement AIN number if event
code 6 used

Alternate Animal ID 2 Character 17 N * Second alternate official Identification
number if 840 AIN not available, or GIN
if animal has AIN and was moved out of
a lot

Alternate Animal ID Type 2 Character 1 N (A) AIN with leading USA, (U)SDA
eartag, (R) AIN with lead manufacture
code, (B)reed registry number, (L)ot
number, (T)attoo, required if alternate
identification (field 17) is provided
* At least one official ID required

:stop: Events u will need to report!
Table 6

Animal Event Codes
Event Code # Description
1 AIN tag distributed – AIN is distributed to a premises or Nonproducer Participant (tags transferred
to another entity in the distribution chain).
2 Tag applied – AIN tag is applied to an animal
3 Moved in – Animal is moved into a premises
4 Moved out – Animal is moved out of a premises
5 Lost Tag – New tag is applied to an animal that lost a tag and previous AIN is unknown
6 Replaced Tag or Re-Tagged – New tag is applied to an animal that lost a tag and previous AIN
is known
7 Imported – Animal is imported into the U.S.
8 Exported – Animal is exported out of the U.S.
9 Sighting – Animal has a confirmed sighting at a location, no movement has occurred. (Ex:
veterinarian sighting) {{{or they drive by you house and your chickens are in the road}}}
10 Harvested – Animal was terminated at an abattoir
11 Died – Animal died of natural causes or euthanized at the farm/ranch
12 Tag retired – Tag retired by producer, packing house, etc.
13 Animal Missing (lost stolen, etc)
14 ICVI – Certificate of veterinary inspection
Table 7

From page 8 of the stratigic plan

Producers that have registered their premises may obtain official
identification devices with the Animal Identification Number (AIN).
As producers acquire these AIN Tags, the initial record of which
premises receives tags also provides NAIS with information to
determine the origin of the animal. or where the animal was first
tagged. The AIN provides a unique lifetime number for each animal identified as an individual. Producers with species identified as groups or lots may use their premises number to establish the official Group/Lot Identification of their animals.
Advancing animal identification data collection systems at packing plants will be a priority, so animals removed from the population can be recorded as efficiently as possible. Collecting interstate movements will be another priority, thus the USDA will implement the electronic interstate certificate of veterinary inspection and electronic movement permit systems. As more animals are identified, the systems necessary to record animal movements through other concentration points will be tested and implemented.

USDA anticipates that adequate advances in the NAIS will continue
to occur, and it will enact regulations by early 2008, requiring
stakeholders to identify their premises and animals. At that time, all
animals leaving their current premises must be identified with the
AIN or Group/Lot ID.
Collecting and recording animal movements is the greatest challenge
ahead. USDA will continue to support field trials and gradual
implementation of successful data collection systems to collect
animal movement records. Ongoing collaboration with market
operators, dealers, and service providers will be essential. The requirement for collecting and reporting defined animal movements to the national animal identification and tracking repository

It goes on and on saying "animals" there are no exceptions listed anywhere.


:?: Wnat a link to this and much more of this about this??

http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/index.shtml





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[WORANCH]

Producer driven..federally enforced mandatory i.d program.

Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance and get government permission to own a goat, chicken, pig, sheep, etc. -- even your own consumption??

Head injury was it :?:

frenchie- actually he isn't far off...When you register each of your premises they require a GPS reading for location- and the initial NAIS proposal includes cattle, horses, chicken, pigs, sheep, goats, bison, turkeys, geese and ducks and possibly even some types of animals that are raised as pets.....

I registered my premise and did not furnish a GPS reading , and you only need 1 ID even if you have more than one place .
You will only have to tag an animal if you sell it . If you raise a cow and she dies before you sell her you will never have to tag her .

 

[Oldtimer]

Producer driven..federally enforced mandatory i.d program.

Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance and get government permission to own a goat, chicken, pig, sheep, etc. -- even your own consumption??

Head injury was it :?:

frenchie- actually he isn't far off...When you register each of your premises they require a GPS reading for location- and the initial NAIS proposal includes cattle, horses, chicken, pigs, sheep, goats, bison, turkeys, geese and ducks and possibly even some types of animals that are raised as pets.....

I registered my premise and did not furnish a GPS reading , and you only need 1 ID even if you have more than one place .
You will only have to tag an animal if you sell it . If you raise a cow and she dies before you sell her you will never have to tag her .

I am trying to get the premise without GPS- been two months since I submitted the paperwork now- we'll see...

And you are wrong about having to tag ONLY when you sell-- if you move the animal or comingle her with other owners cattle, each time will need an inspection and recording of movement...

Many up here have summer range and winter range- some are miles apart- many graze in common with several other owners...I happen to have 1 winter range and 2 summer ranges, one of which is a large pasture made up mostly of BLM or State owned land - in which 2 other owners run cattle...Under the current laws I will have to keep tags in my cows all the time and may have to have some of them inspected at least 3 times a year to move them....

 

[WORANCH]

Worancher.. I have read up on this.. and u? The numbers I quoted came from a Kansas Univerisity Report... Here is an interesting list come the NAIS folks themselves.. THe animals and "Events" that must be reported

:stop: The starting list is on page 15 of the standards,

National Animal Identification System – Draft Program Standards Page 15
List Codes
Certain fields are predefined for list standards that would allow the data to be selected and stored consistently.
Such list standards are presented below.

:stop: :stop: these are the critters to be "identified"
Species
Code Description Code Description
AQU Aquaculture CER Cervids
CLM Clams DEE Deer
CRA Crawfish ELK Elk
CTF Catfish EQU Equine (Horses) 1
MSL Mussels OVI Ovine (Sheep)
OYS Oysters POR Porcine (Swine)
SAL Salmon POU Poultry
SBA Striped Bass CHI Chickens
SHR Shrimp DUC Ducks
SLP Scallops GEE Geese
TIL Tilapia GUI Guineas
TRO Trout PGN Pigeon
BOV Bovine (Bison and Cattle) PHE Pheasants
CAM Camelid (Alpaca and Llama) QUA Quail
CAP Caprine (Goats) TUR Turkeys
1 Equine industry will expand as necessary


:stop: National Animal Identification System – Draft Program Standards Page 13

(T)attoo, required if alternate identification
(field 15) is provided,

R(E)eplacement AIN number if event
code 6 used

Alternate Animal ID 2 Character 17 N * Second alternate official Identification
number if 840 AIN not available, or GIN
if animal has AIN and was moved out of
a lot

Alternate Animal ID Type 2 Character 1 N (A) AIN with leading USA, (U)SDA
eartag, (R) AIN with lead manufacture
code, (B)reed registry number, (L)ot
number, (T)attoo, required if alternate
identification (field 17) is provided
* At least one official ID required

:stop: Events u will need to report!
Table 6

Animal Event Codes
Event Code # Description
1 AIN tag distributed – AIN is distributed to a premises or Nonproducer Participant (tags transferred
to another entity in the distribution chain).
2 Tag applied – AIN tag is applied to an animal
3 Moved in – Animal is moved into a premises
4 Moved out – Animal is moved out of a premises
5 Lost Tag – New tag is applied to an animal that lost a tag and previous AIN is unknown
6 Replaced Tag or Re-Tagged – New tag is applied to an animal that lost a tag and previous AIN
is known
7 Imported – Animal is imported into the U.S.
8 Exported – Animal is exported out of the U.S.
9 Sighting – Animal has a confirmed sighting at a location, no movement has occurred. (Ex:
veterinarian sighting) {{{or they drive by you house and your chickens are in the road}}}
10 Harvested – Animal was terminated at an abattoir
11 Died – Animal died of natural causes or euthanized at the farm/ranch
12 Tag retired – Tag retired by producer, packing house, etc.
13 Animal Missing (lost stolen, etc)
14 ICVI – Certificate of veterinary inspection
Table 7

From page 8 of the stratigic plan

Producers that have registered their premises may obtain official
identification devices with the Animal Identification Number (AIN).
As producers acquire these AIN Tags, the initial record of which
premises receives tags also provides NAIS with information to
determine the origin of the animal. or where the animal was first
tagged. The AIN provides a unique lifetime number for each animal identified as an individual. Producers with species identified as groups or lots may use their premises number to establish the official Group/Lot Identification of their animals.
Advancing animal identification data collection systems at packing plants will be a priority, so animals removed from the population can be recorded as efficiently as possible. Collecting interstate movements will be another priority, thus the USDA will implement the electronic interstate certificate of veterinary inspection and electronic movement permit systems. As more animals are identified, the systems necessary to record animal movements through other concentration points will be tested and implemented.

USDA anticipates that adequate advances in the NAIS will continue
to occur, and it will enact regulations by early 2008, requiring
stakeholders to identify their premises and animals. At that time, all
animals leaving their current premises must be identified with the
AIN or Group/Lot ID.
Collecting and recording animal movements is the greatest challenge
ahead. USDA will continue to support field trials and gradual
implementation of successful data collection systems to collect
animal movement records. Ongoing collaboration with market
operators, dealers, and service providers will be essential. The requirement for collecting and reporting defined animal movements to the national animal identification and tracking repository

It goes on and on saying "animals" there are no exceptions listed anywhere.


:?: Wnat a link to this and much more of this about this??

http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/index.shtml





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Under the current plan, animals that never leave a premises do not need to be identified.


Radio frequency technology is one form of electronic identification that has been discussed for use with cattle. Animal owners that use RFID for official identification will not necessarily need to have an RFID reader.

For example, a producer may be able to record the RFID code of the electronic device before it is applied to an animal and cross-reference the code with a visual-tag number. This would allow the producer to maintain a record of the RFID code without having to read (scan) the transponder. Industry providers may sell RFID eartag attachments on which the RFID code is printed for visual readability. While reading and recording the RFID code manually is not ideal, it can be achieved.


What Species Will be Included in the NAIS?
The NAIS is being developed for all animals that will benefit from having a system to facilitate rapid traceback/traceout in the event of disease concern. Currently, working groups are developing plans for aquaculture, camelids (llamas and alpacas), cattle/bison, cervids (deer and elk), equine, goats, poultry, sheep, and swine.

The only one I am concerned about are the cattle. If you have a bottle calf and three goats in your back yard you can either sale them or buy tags for them. People tag their dogs and cats, they can tag their goats too.

What Will be the Identification Requirements for Animals Entering the United States from Other Countries?
Live animals imported into the United States will require identification levels equivalent to what is required of producers in the United States for interstate movement. USDA anticipates that the NAIS will be compatible with exporting countries' systems. Imported animals will maintain their country of origin identification and will be tracked just like domestic livestock. The country of origin identification will be considered official in the United States, and the animals will not need to be re-identified.

This will be a step towards M-COOL .

 

[WORANCH]

Producer driven..federally enforced mandatory i.d program.

Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance and get government permission to own a goat, chicken, pig, sheep, etc. -- even your own consumption??

Head injury was it :?:

frenchie- actually he isn't far off...When you register each of your premises they require a GPS reading for location- and the initial NAIS proposal includes cattle, horses, chicken, pigs, sheep, goats, bison, turkeys, geese and ducks and possibly even some types of animals that are raised as pets.....

I registered my premise and did not furnish a GPS reading , and you only need 1 ID even if you have more than one place .
You will only have to tag an animal if you sell it . If you raise a cow and she dies before you sell her you will never have to tag her .

I am trying to get the premise without GPS- been two months since I submitted the paperwork now- we'll see...

And you are wrong about having to tag ONLY when you sell-- if you move the animal or comingle her with other owners cattle, each time will need an inspection and recording of movement...

Many up here have summer range and winter range- some are miles apart- many graze in common with several other owners...I happen to have 1 winter range and 2 summer ranges, one of which is a large pasture made up mostly of BLM or State owned land - in which 2 other owners run cattle...Under the current laws I will have to keep tags in my cows all the time and may have to have some of them inspected at least 3 times a year to move them....

When people show or commingle their animals with animals from multiple premises, the possibility of spreading disease becomes a factor. Those animals will need to be identified.
Most cattlemen in the south and southeast do not commingle their cattle .So they will not have to tag unless they sell an animal. I know it will be different for some in the north.

I will be able to move cattle from one pasture to another a few miles apart with only 1 ID and no inspection . Other states may be different.

Do I like this ID stuff NO ,but it's coming so I'll do what I have to do ,or sell out and lease my place.

 

[frenchie]

Head injury was it

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: Do you guys have to register your farms for satellite surveillance,..

Cmjust0..Nope its already been done..we are already under satellite surveillance..The goverment can pull up a detailed satelliate image of every operation in Canada. And the G.Ps coordinates are all available right there..

and get permission from the government to raise a chicken, goat, pig, sheep, etc., for your own consumption??
I'm waiting for your answer..

You do and you don,t need permission?? Depends on your location...and the goverment involved..But If you do raise ..they have to be Ided and ID in Canada IS MANDATORY or soon will be in almost all species.

 

[frenchie]

Dave - Seems like you'd have three options.. Pay somebody to take it, give it away without a tag and be an NAIS lawbreaker, or kill it and be an animal cruelty lawbreaker.. Doesn't bode well, huh?


frenchie -- I'm still waiting for my answer... I'll hound you until I get one, you know that right?

I,ll answer your questions on my time buddy boy.....I won,t live on the internet just to please you.

 

[frenchie]

God forbid you don,t use the eyes God gave you to read the numbers clearly printed on the tag yourself.

Not me, the folks at the salebarn.. And what if the legible part of the tag is made illegible somehow? It's not like you're looking at a huge "128" like regular tags.. Maybe you're eyesight is better than mine, though. :roll: :

write the #s down , when you put the tag in or get new glasses. or perhaps a braille tag is suitable for you.
And it should not be too hard for you to tell your 2 animals apart :lol:




:

And as far as the virus thing goes, some RFID tags are read only, some aren't... The supposition that the reader itself is read only is utterly rediculous.. If it were read only, it couldn't take input, which means it couldn't read anything. You can try to debate this with me, but you should know that I've been writing software since I was 16.. I'm pretty sure I know what read only means.. :lol:

Funny but you still can,t read a tag..heres your sign :dunce:

 

[frenchie]

I will guarentee you that if the U.S.D.A were to enforce blanket testing the C.F.I.A would follow their lead and enforce it up here.That is a concern for the Canuks..Who the h3LL do you think Is going to pay for this testing. it won,t be the packers..it will be ranchers.

Bottom line ..The same packers operate on both sides of the border.

What do you think, that CWT price of a steer would go down as a result of an order buyer anticipating the cost of testing the carcass? :roll: PUUUHLEASE.. That cost would get passed right on to the consumer... Just think about what a massive price fixing conspiracy it would take to drive market down as a result of carcass testing..

Jeezz.. And you guys accuse ME of watching for black helicopters?!? :lol:

..it will likely be a fee .Something similar to a brand inspection fee..Don,t think it will happen guess again.

 

[cmjust0]

You will only have to tag an animal if you sell it . If you raise a cow and she dies before you sell her you will never have to tag her .

You're flat out wrong about that.. If the animal moves off your property, that movement legally has to be recorded.. Can't take one to the vet without a tag, which means it should be tagged in advance -- unless you want to wait until it goes down before tagging and submitting the info to the Feds.. I don't know of any cattleman who would take that chance.

And, before you say you'll have the vet come out, remember that the vet will be legally required to submit the 'sighting' of the animal.. If it doesn't have a tag, he'll have to report you to the Feds.

 

[cmjust0]

And it should not be too hard for you to tell your 2 animals apart

What two animals are these you keep mentioning? I plan to run meat goats, too, which usually kid twins.. If I had 15 does and a buck, I could end up with close to 50 animals that need tags.. That doesn't even account for cattle.

See, you'll never understand the complications of NAIS unless you manage to think beyond just cattle.. Try to see the bigger picture, if you're able.. (...I'm not holding my breath...)

 

[cmjust0]

..it will likely be a fee .Something similar to a brand inspection fee..Don,t think it will happen guess again.

How many times have I heard on this forum that cattlemen are lucky to get $100/head profit on their cattle, and yet you expect me to believe that $20-$30 of that is going to be chopped right off the top -- with no effect to the supply side? Think about what you're saying -- you're talking about a 20-30% drop in profit for the average cattle producer.. Do you really think producers would just roll over and accept it??

If so, then clearly you don't know squat about an open market.. If profit drops, supply follows.. Those left producing are the ones who can afford to continue producing at that price -- usually, the low quality corner cutters and/or very, very high volume producers.. If demand remained high and resulted in a shortage (which it would), prices WOULD increase until the market stabilized.. When it stabilized, that $20-30 fee would be accounted for (or it would never stabilize), and producers would still get their $100/head profit like they did before -- or more, to account for the cost and trouble of getting back in..

Any way you slice it, the cost is passed on to the consumer.