Bought a bred heifer yesterday (pic)

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agmantoo":2zxonxhk said:
Regarding the heifer purchased from a high profile dry land southern plains herd.....with compensatory gain you will not think it is the same animal in as little as 30 days. Even if you do not post her pic now you do need to take a "before" pic so we too can share the change in 4 to 6 weeks.

I hope you are correct. I have taken pictures of her but don't want to imply anything about the sellers. I am new to this and don't know what to expect. The Tundra heifer came around after awhile but it took 5-6 months of good rotational grazing for her to come back as shown in the photo above. But she was a show heifer. This second one was definitely not a show heifer.

I will be happy to post a before/after if she comes around. She was grazing pretty intensely off by herself or with one other heifer today. Maybe you are right. Thank you.

Jim
 
AllForage":2lxhz5c0 said:
Jim,
Yes the Lents cattle are linebred to Anxiety 4th. I believe the closest in the world. I market grass-finished beef. I need moderate cattle that can thrive and fatten on a forage only program. "Modern" cattle tend to grow too large and are higher maintenance. I am breeding cattle very similar to JHambleys who I have seen post on this site. Genetics are relative to your goal in marketing. I finish cattle on grass so I need old style short wide cows that will put fat on earlier rather than grow bone. As far as breeding up, I take a set of heifers and put them on bull 1. Then their heifers are put on bull 2 of same bloodline. These calves are now 75% anxiety 4th blood. And then again. This is a very simple breeding plan similar to the early range cattle that were improved by anxiety bulls in the early 1900's.

Ryan

Now I see what you mean by "75%" heifers. I would like to see a picture of the bull you mention. I do need to say that I am not really into "grass finishing". Mine are mostly grass but finished by grazing standing unharvested corn. Corn is a grass also. Thanks for the education. I do want shorter but longer cattle.

Bone: My 1930 lb elephant I posted about here earlier looks good but her calves are large boned and don't really "finish" as well by my 14 month harvest date as some of my other 1200-1300 lb cows.

I find also that the 1200-1300 lb cows steers with shorter bones have a higher percent of hanging weight of saleable beef than the larger bonier animals. I have my processors trim most bone out. folks don't want to pay for a lot of bone.

Jim
 
I don't want to spoil all the theoretical fun, but in the real world you need bone, more so in a grazing only animal, that doesn't mean you need excessive length of bone, but you need the length of bone to be in balance with the rest of the body to ensure freedom of movement.

Maybe I should just clarify this as well...

When the term bone is used in beef cattle it is refered to the thickness and shape of bone, thicker, (to a point) flatter bone is prefered over thin, dense, round bone. As with everything in nature everything needs to be in balance, you need heavier, flatter bone to have more surface area for muscle attachment, but heavy bone will also add to BW and dystocia and is antagonistic to milking ability.

Thin round bone is associated with light muscled, often later maturing animals with weaker constitutions that are generally poorer doers. It may mean they are more of a dairy type and excessively light bone also compromise fertility.

There really is no need to overthink this, just go back to what herefords became popular for... grazing animals where other higher performing breeds failed and look at the breed characteristics... herefords always were and always should be medium boned animals of moderate size.

The past is more than enough proof that going away from the breed characteristics never work in the long run.
 
As far as bone, of course I mean how tall an animal is. I live in an area where 6 ft. Holsteins are not uncommon. Just remember that grass type cattle can finish efficiently either grain or grass. Feedlot genetics can't. I can post pics of my bulls when I figure out how to.
 
AllForage":1mf95jw6 said:
As far as bone, of course I mean how tall an animal is. I live in an area where 6 ft. Holsteins are not uncommon. Just remember that grass type cattle can finish efficiently either grain or grass. Feedlot genetics can't. I can post pics of my bulls when I figure out how to.

How long have you been using Lents bulls? How long have you been grass finishing cattle?
 
AllForage":kzbvruaf said:
If you want to breed heifers low, I am done with one of my Lents Anxiety 4th bulls up here in NE Wisconsin. I am doing a breeding up program and starting to produce 75% heifers.

Hey I am working with Lents bulls also. I am using them on L1 cows I would like to compare notes and trade pictures if you have them. I would like to see what your grass finished animals look like. I am curious as to what different people think a grass finished beef animal ought to look like.

DG
 
Knersie,

Been grass-finishing and marketing it for 9 years, lambs for 5 and using Lents bull's for little over 4 years now.

DG,
It would be great to compare notes, message me a contact.
 
AllForage":28prasjo said:
As far as bone, of course I mean how tall an animal is. I live in an area where 6 ft. Holsteins are not uncommon. Just remember that grass type cattle can finish efficiently either grain or grass. Feedlot genetics can't. I can post pics of my bulls when I figure out how to.
Here are his bulls

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The bulls look good, do you have any daughters in production yet and how do they milk? How did they adapt going from Oklahoma to Wisconsin?

I don't think the Lents type is the best grass type, they needed more guts for that, but that is something that Jim Lents and I disagree on. I am truly very happy for you and Jim that his cattle work for you, it would be a pity to see such an old pure genepool disappear.
 
Knersie,

I have been butchering their offspring for 3 years now and have seen an increase in conformation and marbling off grass with no change in management. I have just bred 50% heifers this year. I operate very differently than most folks. I almost wean naturally. Cows nurse 9-10 months. (95% or better breed back) I breed heifers at 2. My steers and heifers finish at 24 months also due to our climate and seasons. I started with OK commercial WI herefords, which is difficult because most here are ruminant elephants. As far as milk goes I am not sure yet although there is obviously a level that must be attained, my system does not require heavy milkers.

I have brought them here as young as possible. One was a long yearling the other a short. I do not make them breed for a year. The first one almost stayed still for a year and then took off. The second hit the ground running. I will say that bringing 2 year olds from SW OK to say fescue or watery northern forage can be a disaster if not properly planned out.

The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation. Any bloodline or breed will begin to excel within limits after being on your farm or ranch. My calves born and raised here will always display their full potential and the animals I import will not. What these bulls have done in one generation for females is amazing compared to what I am starting with. Putting this unequaled level of propotentcy on mediocre cows is visually more convincing than breeding to decent registered cows. Mostly because you are starting with at least some positive.

This gene pool will not disappear. It is becoming more relevant everyday with the grassfed movement. It is a grass-based genepool. I started with Galloways and was disappointed. Jim sells out every year and I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal.
 
The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation

Absolutely! They don't need capacity and guts so that they can consume a huge amount of low quality forgae when there are cake dispensers on the truck and the place is scattered with selffeeders and bulls are pen raised.

I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal

Thats a double edged blade, I've seen as many flops as successes from his bulls.
 
KNERSIE":1n8wocom said:
The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation

Absolutely! They don't need capacity and guts so that they can consume a huge amount of low quality forgae when there are cake dispensers on the truck and the place is scattered with selffeeders and bulls are pen raised.

I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal

Thats a double edged blade, I've seen as many flops as successes from his bulls.

Ok I guess I have been called out and need to make a statement here as another person that is in the process of using Lents bulls in no small part for the hope of starting a grassfed and grass-finished operation.

I am about a year behind the guy "Allforage" post, and I don't think that I have quite the numbers that he may have but my experience with the Lents blood line has been completely positive so far. I will have my first Lents heifers going into production next year so we will see I guess how they milk. I will insert a couple of 8 month old bull calves that I had this year out of L1 cows
Beatrice_s_Bull_Calf_OCT_2010.jpg

Elsa_s_Bull_Calf_OCT_2010.jpg


I have been impressed with how they have done and in our operation we don't feed them range cubes and they were never creep fed either. I think somehow Jim's operation has been somehow mischaracterized. He does not have self feeders scattered all over they are not in his pastures with his cows and calves at all. He does use range cubes to help support them as his forage conditions in southwest Oklahoma are not exactly the best especially in late summer or in heavy drought like he had to live through the previous 5 years or so. He does feed out the sale bulls to some extent but you really need to know what his feed is before you get to critical. That feed ration is about 90 or greater cottonseed hull with a bit of milo and sometimes corn. Not your typical feedlot ration in the least.

Knersie as I understand it you reside in South Africa; so I am curious as to how many Lents bred animals you have actually seen? I have not been able to do them justice with any pictures that I have take though that is what we are forced to deal with in a situation like this forum where very few people live right next door.

I do understand your comment about the gut/capacity for consuming low grade forage and being able to support themselve in tough conditions. However the Anxiety 4th blood line, if your read for American Hereford breed history books is the bloodline that revolutionized the range in being able to adapt to all the different forage conditions and still thrive. My experience so far has not shown many any evidence to the contrary. I have some very large capacity L1 cows and they don't seem to do any better than any others when it comes to recovering between calves or maintaining body condition. So I am not complete sold on that comment but it does make sense in someways.

Best Regards,
DG
 
KNERSIE wrote:

The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation



Absolutely! They don't need capacity and guts so that they can consume a huge amount of low quality forgae when there are cake dispensers on the truck and the place is scattered with selffeeders and bulls are pen raised.

I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal



Thats a double edged blade, I've seen as many flops as successes from his bulls.



Wow, that stung. Mischaracterized is correct. Jim runs I believe 75 to 150 cows on about 2000+ acres of OK pastureland. There are no self-feeders. He has been instituting rotational grazing and range management for I think over 10 years. Has even spent years getting landlords to allow him subdivide their places. Which gets to the bull thing. Yes he supplements with a very mild ration, but has talked about phasing it out as his fertility goes up. Also when the rain comes back. I would like to see total forage, but I don't sell 50+ bulls a year to varied operations. I also don't live in SW OK either. My understanding is that is it common to protein supplement winter range in that part of the country. I am not sure how you have seen his females either. The only way is to go to the ranch, have his powerpoint slide cd, or few pics from his newsletter.

I had an experience a few years ago at the WI grazing conference with Dr. Allen Williams (grassfed ultrasound guru) and thousand hills cattle. I asked him if he had ever scanned Jim's cattle and how were they? He said to my face yes and that they were not special and plenty of other folks had better cattle. Well, Williams has never been to Jim's or even seen the front gate. Envy and egos often cause folks to spread negative lies.

Someone who's family has been in charge of a closed linebred gene pool such as Anxiety 4th deserves a little more respect than those comments. Can anyone here say they would keep their cattle breeding faith by sticking to the original Anxiety 4th ideal beef animal form. Through the great frame race when he couldn't give a bull away, or the constant ignoring of associations. Linebreeding alone casts you off, let alone having animals that differ from "modern" lines.
Just some thoughts.
 
Well we have succesfully hijacked Jims thread. Sorry Jim.

As for the bull pics thanks. I like the looks of those. I was somehow misunderstanding the feed thing.
 
AllForage":za1gajr2 said:
Knersie,

I have been butchering their offspring for 3 years now and have seen an increase in conformation and marbling off grass with no change in management. I have just bred 50% heifers this year. I operate very differently than most folks. I almost wean naturally. Cows nurse 9-10 months. (95% or better breed back) I breed heifers at 2. My steers and heifers finish at 24 months also due to our climate and seasons. I started with OK commercial WI herefords, which is difficult because most here are ruminant elephants. As far as milk goes I am not sure yet although there is obviously a level that must be attained, my system does not require heavy milkers.

I have brought them here as young as possible. One was a long yearling the other a short. I do not make them breed for a year. The first one almost stayed still for a year and then took off. The second hit the ground running. I will say that bringing 2 year olds from SW OK to say fescue or watery northern forage can be a disaster if not properly planned out.

The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation. Any bloodline or breed will begin to excel within limits after being on your farm or ranch. My calves born and raised here will always display their full potential and the animals I import will not. What these bulls have done in one generation for females is amazing compared to what I am starting with. Putting this unequaled level of propotentcy on mediocre cows is visually more convincing than breeding to decent registered cows. Mostly because you are starting with at least some positive.

This gene pool will not disappear. It is becoming more relevant everyday with the grassfed movement. It is a grass-based genepool. I started with Galloways and was disappointed. Jim sells out every year and I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal.

I'm pretty sure I would rather have your grass than my Oklahoma grass
 
EAT BEEF":18ld6wcp said:
AllForage":18ld6wcp said:
Knersie,

I have been butchering their offspring for 3 years now and have seen an increase in conformation and marbling off grass with no change in management. I have just bred 50% heifers this year. I operate very differently than most folks. I almost wean naturally. Cows nurse 9-10 months. (95% or better breed back) I breed heifers at 2. My steers and heifers finish at 24 months also due to our climate and seasons. I started with OK commercial WI herefords, which is difficult because most here are ruminant elephants. As far as milk goes I am not sure yet although there is obviously a level that must be attained, my system does not require heavy milkers.

I have brought them here as young as possible. One was a long yearling the other a short. I do not make them breed for a year. The first one almost stayed still for a year and then took off. The second hit the ground running. I will say that bringing 2 year olds from SW OK to say fescue or watery northern forage can be a disaster if not properly planned out.

The guts thing I believe is a matter of environmental adaptation. Any bloodline or breed will begin to excel within limits after being on your farm or ranch. My calves born and raised here will always display their full potential and the animals I import will not. What these bulls have done in one generation for females is amazing compared to what I am starting with. Putting this unequaled level of propotentcy on mediocre cows is visually more convincing than breeding to decent registered cows. Mostly because you are starting with at least some positive.

This gene pool will not disappear. It is becoming more relevant everyday with the grassfed movement. It is a grass-based genepool. I started with Galloways and was disappointed. Jim sells out every year and I am hoping the folks using his bulls will be a little more vocal.

I'm pretty sure I would rather have your grass than my Oklahoma grass

Especially right now after being so dry
:nod:
 
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