Better Bull?

[Brandonm2]

This is awfully unscientific but I body condition scored your cows on a 1-9 scale like this.....

3
4
4
4
3
5.8 (I don't know what the story is on this cow but she looks like she is eating better than everybody else combined)
3

I know the pictures were taken in January and I know that conditions in Texas were not particularly pleasant last year; but your cows are a LITTLE on the lean side. Ideally more of the cows could be in as good a condition as that fat #6 cow and less of them as lean as that #7 cow. IF the cows were being pushed hard by their environment, I would be hesitant to add too much frame and growthiness to the mix unless I could also figure out how to increase the available grass. It looks a little woody; maybe if you got in there with a dozer and thinned some of the brush you might increase the available grass some.

 

[Ryder]

I really just posted the pictures to get some good feedback as to whether these cows deficiencies are to great to be overcome through breeding up.

The black cow on the bottom is the smallest and also the poorest milker (smallest bag anyway, I've read that argument). She can't weigh anything over 800 lbs. I'd like the smallest cow to be around 1000 lbs open.

Anyway, I would appreciate you experienced ladies and gents advising if these cows could be improved upon with great bulls and great genetics. Thanks for your replies.

The bulls you are looking at are some pretty good looking bulls. I don't think your cows are worthy of one of these bulls. A bull is half of your calf crop. But the cows are the other half. I don't fault a herd of good cows of more than one breed. But in your case I think breeding up with these cows would take longer than justified. I would rather sell some or alll of the cows and buy better quality. Even if your numbers are reduced you can get better cows to compliment a good bull. I think this would put you further ahead in the game.

 

[skyline]

OK, this thread is very interesting to me. I'll be the first to admit that I've got lots to learn, so here's a question. How about buying one of the bulls and beginning to use it on the herd? Each year, take the money from the calves, cull 2 or 3 of the cows, and take the proceeds from both and buy better cows/hiefers each year to improve the herd and increase the size of the herd? Seems like that would be a compromise to me. Plus it would give you a year to evaluate what you get out of the bull/cow mix. Keep the cows that give you the best calves and cull the rest over time. From what I have seen in my herd, you might be real surprised at your calf crop. BTW, we're in East Texas near I-20 and the beefmaster works good in our environment. I've been told that from I-20 south, having some ear on a commercial cow herd is a plus, due to the heat and humidity.

 

[Syd Sydney]

The black cow on the bottom is the smallest and also the poorest milker (smallest bag anyway, I've read that argument). She can't weigh anything over 800 lbs. I'd like the smallest cow to be around 1000 lbs open.

Don't forget udder size does not mean she does not have a lot of milk I would rather have a small heifer 800-900 pounds with a nice tight udder strong front and rear attachment with good udder depth then a 1500 lb cow with a huge udder but dries up in an a couple of months.You can really only tell milk by weaning size and comparison to the others weaning size in the same group (age birthweight etc.)or take it to your local dairy that does DHI and have them milk her for a lactation.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

This is awfully unscientific but I body condition scored your cows on a 1-9 scale like this.....

3
4
4
4
3
5.8 (I don't know what the story is on this cow but she looks like she is eating better than everybody else combined)
3

I know the pictures were taken in January and I know that conditions in Texas were not particularly pleasant last year; but your cows are a LITTLE on the lean side. Ideally more of the cows could be in as good a condition as that fat #6 cow and less of them as lean as that #7 cow. IF the cows were being pushed hard by their environment, I would be hesitant to add too much frame and growthiness to the mix unless I could also figure out how to increase the available grass. It looks a little woody; maybe if you got in there with a dozer and thinned some of the brush you might increase the available grass some.

Who taught you to BCS?


Either of these bulls, would definetly improve your cow herd.

 

[Beefy]

those cows will have nice beefmaster calves, particularly the two brown cows and the red one with the white patch.

there is nothing wrong with an 800 lb cow.
get the second bull, put him on your cows. cull the cows that dont perform.

 

[Brandonm2]

Who taught you to BCS?


Either of these bulls, would definetly improve your cow herd.

Some in college. Too many cattle magazines. I am more or less self taught. Since I am just looking at one photo it is kind of difficult. None are showing a full set of ribs so I don't see a 2 (A one is a walking skeleton). Where I see SOME ribs I call it a 3. If the ribs aren't real apparent, but the hooks and the pins are still very apparent I call that a 4. If all the ribs are covered and she has got good fat cover throughout no obvious bones other that hooks and pins that's a 5........6 to 8 is just fat, fatter, fattest, and 9 is so fat she has trouble getting around and probably hasn't had a calf in a few years anyway.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

It looks like she is trying with this bull

 

[East Caney]

Brandonm2, These pictures are 1 month after I bought the cows. I bought a tractor that February and a shredder a bit later in the year. That brush has since been destroyed and replaced with a new working pen. There were a ton of sapling trees growing. I'm a little more than 1/2 finished shredding them all down. There's a lot of grass under the trees, but their bcs (which I don't think is as low as you say, though I'm not arguing) wasn't a result of their environment that you see in the background. A whole other problem is the thorn vines that are growing back....

Syd Sydney, I know I didn't say before, but she also weaned the smallest calf...didn't compare to the others. She probably honestly shouldn't still be here, but hard heads have to learn...(gave her another chance).

Skyline, that's an intersting proposal. It just seems like I'm defeating myself if I sell any of these cows light bred since they'll probably bring dog food prices. I'm just south of I-30 but I know that brahman influence will be well utilized. Those bulls are located 20 miles south of me.

Ryder, your statement was taken into consideration minus the first part. See, I asked if it would be worth it to use good bulls and breed up. You said not with these cows. I can accept that part. You lost me when you said the cows are not worthy of the bulls. That's like saying I should use a sorry bull since I've got sorry cows....that might just defeat the purpose of trying to IMPROVE my herd. Thanks for your thoughts anyway.

I think I'll just give it a try. If I get some heifers, one can hardly argue to the probability that they'll outperform their dam. Anything that doesn't seem better will head to the sale. I'll take my docking on steers. My #1 priority is having brood cows that are extremely functional and produce excellent calves. When I have that, I'll rotate between a Beefmaster bull (for replacements) and a bull not made up of the 3 breeds used in Beefmaster (for that good ol' hybrid vigor).

 

[*Cowgirl*]

Who taught you to BCS?


Either of these bulls, would definetly improve your cow herd.

Some in college. Too many cattle magazines. I am more or less self taught. Since I am just looking at one photo it is kind of difficult. None are showing a full set of ribs so I don't see a 2 (A one is a walking skeleton). Where I see SOME ribs I call it a 3. If the ribs aren't real apparent, but the hooks and the pins are still very apparent I call that a 4. If all the ribs are covered and she has got good fat cover throughout no obvious bones other that hooks and pins that's a 5........6 to 8 is just fat, fatter, fattest, and 9 is so fat she has trouble getting around and probably hasn't had a calf in a few years anyway.

Why don't you check out this link and brush up a little.......
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/beef/400-795/photos1-9.html

 

[Brandonm2]

I might be off that.....slightly. I BCS scored thousands of sows on the 1-5 scale. It is not an exact science. Of course somebody who hits the panic button early just wastes a little feed or the best grass.....on the other hand somebody who keeps telling themselves their cows look good enough and things will get better on their own and keeps saying that until he has a pasture full of 1s and 2s that won't breed and won't milk ends up spending more money in the long run.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

you may not want my input. but your cows can be improved on. but i wouldnt use a beefmaster to do it. your cattle need unifomity that a beefmaster wont provide. your calve's will run the gamut in shape/color and size. if say if you had strait hereford then a beefmaster would be fine.i would clean them up with a brangus or angus plus

 

[ALACOWMAN]

For what it's worth:

With the cows you pictured, I would recommend an Angus bull to help with uniformity. Somebody said "sell the cows". Now those cows ain't pretty and I have been harsh on people's cattle before, but economics says to start breeding up here. Sell all those angus cross steer/bull calves. Keep the best half of the heifer calves and sell the worst 10% of your cows. Do this for a couple of years then you should have a more uniform herd of black polled cattle and you can start some planned crossbreeding, but right now you are in the base building stage.

now you talkin .100% . heterosis that they would get from the beefmaster wouldnt make a dent in these cows right now they are the result of too many in the wood pile. so take them in one direction for awhile and build some uniformity in them.

 

[East Caney]

Alacowman & Nortexsoook,

Always listening to everyone's opinion....really not trying to blind myself because I dug myself a bit of a hole to start with. I can accept if someone gives me a good reason that I'll be losing if I don't sell them...but just to say "sell them" without good justified reason was throwing me off a little bit.

Skyline wrote:

From what I have seen in my herd, you might be real surprised at your calf crop.

What did you mean by that? Color surprise, performance surprise?

I don't want to disregard someone else's post...I do think I remember reading someone else's comment to go in a one breed general direction first also. I will say this...I'm not knocking black cows because I like black cows. However, more money always seems to be more enjoyable. So, my desire is to have red cows. I love the idea of being able to change the color of the calf crop (black, red, or yellow). That allows me to give buyers the color calf they want (so I avoid being discounted) without having to change my herd.

 

[East Caney]

Whoops...didn't complete my thought. That doesn't mean I wouldn't use angus or brangus....I'd just use Red Angus or Red Brangus.

BTW, you can see the price if you just go to the websites that I plugged in for the pictures...but without looking, what would you pay? I don't have their EPDs, but they are registered. #1 has a 74 lb BW, #2's is 79. Don't have their weaning weights, but #2 weaned heavier. According to the owner (whom I spoke to by phone), they now weigh the same (website says #1 is 20 lbs lighter...not much difference). 13-14 months old, both weighing right at 1100 lbs. What would you pay?

 

[KNERSIE]

No herd is too poor to be drastically improved by a superior bull. Cull problem cows, as it will come back to bite you through their offspring later, but breed the rest to the best bull you can possibly afford and you'll be pleasantly surprized by the outcome.

I have little experience with beefmaster, but agree with others to use a bull that will give you a more uniform calf crop. I'd go with hereford as at least all the calves will have a white face and your calf crop will look as if you at least have a plan.

From what I can see of your cows, you can do with a lot more capacity, muscling and heavier bone, without compromising on milk, so make sure to include those traits high on your list.

Once you get a herd of hereford or red angus or whichever breed you prefer, looking cattle, you can always go back to beefmaster to get closer to your ideal cow. I just feel you'll sooner reach your goal of more uniformity if not using a composite bull.

 

[East Caney]

Knersie,

Comments appreciated. It seems like the more I ask, the more questions I have....funny how that works, huh?

Here's what I keep thinking: I don't know that I can afford a Hereford, RA, or Red Brangus bull that has the muscling, bone, topline, and genetics these bulls have. I see a lot of yearlings of these other breeds being sold at higher prices. This guy is actually about to go up on the price of these beefmasters. I also feel there's a need to have brahman be a key part of my cows. So here's the question...

Will the premium from a uniform calf crop offset extra lbs of muscle I feel I can gain from these bulls? And, will I be giving that back by not having the efficiency and hardiness added from the brahman influence?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

if you like red thats great. a red angus bull would do fine . the problem with your cows some have ears some dont. some maybe to much. a beefmaster is only gonna enhance the brahamn in the calves and color patterns on the others some calves will have to much ear and be all leather and bones. a good red non brahamn bull should bring all you'r calves into a pretty uniform group

 

[SoTX Cwby]

EC

Looking at the two bulls you have to pick from. I would not hesitate on either one. Looking at the pedigrees from both, their is a LOT of consistency on both bulls for solid colored calves. The L2 breeding is some of the best for consistency. Check out their website to see for yourself. http://www.L2ranch.comIf your looking for upgrading your base herd. I would breed to the bull of your choice (of the 2 picks) and keep the best heifers from the bunch. Take the bottom 10% of the cows and use this money to purchase some better replacements. When you have the base that you want then you can look at crossing with the breed of your choice for a terminal cross. You can go other routes but a solid cow with some brahma in it will give you a base herd that will do well in your neck of the woods.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

we cant over come the bad rap most southern cattle have with the miss use and over use of brahamn influence.