Another bull to comment on

[Aaron]

Here is one of my first forage-raised bulls. Up till now, this bull hasn't seen a hint of grain. As a calf and yearling, it's been grass and hay.

BD: Sept 12, 2008
BW: 110 lbs.
205 ADJ WW: 578 lbs.
ADG as calf over winter on milk and hay: 2.28 lbs/day (I think that is quite good for a fall calf)
YW: 910 lbs.
Current weight: approx. 1000 lbs

CE BW WW YW Milk TM
EPD -0.2 +4.4 +34.8 +61.2 +9.2 +26.6

Sire

Dam @ 11 years of age

 

[KNERSIE]

I like this type better, and his dam is also the better cow of the two posted, but unfortunately he also has the same sire with all the same faults. I really think that you must either AI or invest in a better herdsire if you want to be taken seriously in the seedstock business.

 

[Aaron]

Please elaborate on the faults Knersie. You probably identify a few more than I do. :cowboy:

 

[Australian]

I haven't seen Hereford s like this in Australia. The snow looks nice.

 

[JHH]

Aaron while I like this bull better I think I would have cut him with a 110lb birth weight.

I have been sending Knersie pics also I have some of the same faults that you have.

That bull is not heavy enough muscled and the long hair (winter coat) covers some of the other faults.
He should also have a heavier bone IMO. The sire passed that on (light boned)
I think he also cut up in his flank
And I would like to see a bigger chest floor (heartgirth)

What is on the sires testical is he frost bit?

I liked both cows. They are different types but I like both. I am no expert and I hope I havent made you mad. I was just pointing out what i seen. I may be all wrong.

It is hard picking out a new bull and even harder to get a good one.

 

[LFF]

Hello Aaron,

I have made very few posts the last year or so , and I hope that you do not get upset with my thoughts. The cow , sire , and bull calf lack length in their hind quarters. I have some similar cows that are on my cull list, but one could say that I'm the pot calling the kettle black. If you look at the hooks and proceed back to the rear end from the side of the bull there just is not much there.

I agree with this statement,
Re: Another bull to comment on
by KNERSIE on Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:27 am

"I like this type better, and his dam is also the better cow of the two posted, but unfortunately he also has the same sire with all the same faults. I really think that you must either AI or invest in a better herdsire if you want to be taken seriously in the seedstock business."


Hope that I did not sound too critical

Merry Christmas,
LFF

 

[[Bez]]

Aaron

I first went to the PM - but decided I would put the response here - it may ruffle some feathers.

Cattle Today experts in general place grain in front of their animals on a regular basis.

All the experts here do not have animals in snow deeper than their bellies - eating twigs and grass until far into a winter that most writers would be whimpering about and asking "how can I feed my baby some grain because she looks cold". These animals rustle feed and do it well - they then turn it into pounds of beef. And they do not do it with humped backs and tucked tails.

Most CT experts whether they write or simply read are so sharp they will ignore your OLD cow - who gives you trouble free calves every year.

They will be so sharp they do not recognize the value of that ability alone - that is because most of the southern US parking lot cattle producers here tend to sell their cows before they hit 10 years of age - creating yet another weakness in the herd.

Most on this board here do not have their animals put up with real wolves and swamps and bugs - heat in the high 90's with 100% humidity and then minus 40 with heavy snow and winds.

These guys want a longer animal and a heavier animal - one that would eat you personally out of house and home and would require expensive food add ons - that is because when you live in a land of cowboy wanna be's and cattle experst that raise them in onsies and twosies and do not care about the bottom line it is easy to talk the talk - harder to walk the walk and most would fail. Big hats, fancy trucks and shiny buckles.

What you want is an animal that costs you nothing - grows lots of pounds, does not give you real or imaginary health problems, raises a calf and breeds back every year - and does all of this on willow twigs and wild grass - and nothing else.

The vast majority of people on these boards raise less than 10 animals in their parking lot - and as recently seen - keep them in pens and then wonder why Sarah-Lu is "off her feed". Maybe she needs to be on a diet? He!! maybe she needs to be dead because she is a liability to the herd - oh well, somebody loves her - but they would not eat her.

I have never heard you say you were a seed stock producer despite selling a few animals - you are basically a pounds producer - and doing it in an area that requires more than the southern parking lot producers "I cannot affort to feed two bales of hay per year" could manage or understand - he!! you know there is one producer on these boards who actually bragged he can feed 24 cents of hay per day making his annual feed cost per year 24 bucks - he is full of schitzen but that is the way it is.

You know if you had their advantages you would be rolling in cash even at todays prices - because if you can make a dollar where you are with your distances, expenses and pricing - it would be even easier down in the land of short hauls, millions of customers and low expenses.

If I was raising animals where you are - and I know your country well - I would want animals that are able to keep a calf at side at 40 below, eat anything and not get skinny, be able to sleep in snow and be able to walk without worrying me about a sand crack that makes her limp - how many of those posts have we seen - "my baby walks funny and her foot has a crack in it" - what do I do? Best answer is "Kill her or cull her" - it gets rid of the problem today and prevents it from coming back tomorrow. But there will be 25 response on how to fix her so the problem can be perpetuated in her calves. Yup that is real smart

You have killed and culled and now have a herd that carries you and not the other way around

These animals are not your pampered and glossy pets folks - they go out and work and they do the job and believe it or not - despite pricing - they actually make money - real money - not the "I work to support the farm and NEVER lose money on cows" - because he has bred all that crap out of them - yet the average producer here on these boards is breeding it BACK INTO THEM.

Cows that we read about on these boards every day from the Texas parking lot cattle producer or the Tennessee "I inherited a dairy farm and sold it all to raise three beeves on the front yard" are being bred to have small calves and need help - are being bred to need grain, are being bred to need shelter and the beat goes on.

I would bet you a dollar Aaron does not worry about these animals when it gets "bitterly cold at about minus one degree and a slight wind" (sarcasm) - and I bet you he does not worry about a calf that comes in at 90 pounds with a heifer that is off in the bush and he cannot find it. I also bet you he does not do a lot of calf pulling or veterinarian calling. Basically he has push button cows. Something that is being bred into them on his place and bred out of them by the majority of hobby experts down south.

In closing I see a pile of pics from all over the place and these cows as a whole will stack up against any of them as a whole - especially if you look at the total herd versus one animal at a time. And especially if you look at them and understand how they were raised. Really look at them and understand how they were raised.

In fact I would be willing to bet most readers and respondents would be happy to have a herd as healthy, reliable and trouble free as this one is - but then again Aaron - it would be nicer if they were longer, heavier and of course more expensive to feed.

That would keep the hobby experts happy as they drove off to work every morning to subsidize the farm - or better yet - put Mom out to work as well - that way you can have a bigger money losing operation and use TWO people to support it! Lots of them will be reading this and some might even respond.

And remember - some of these folks even brag on the fact they have never lost a dime on cattle - as they go off to work to support those cows.

You got some good ones there Aaron - do not let the nit pickers grind at you - I doubt they would be able to do better or even near as good - especially where you are.

Merry Christmas to all,

[Bez]

 

[TexasBred]

What you want is an animal that costs you nothing - grows lots of pounds, does not give you real or imaginary health problems, raises a calf and breeds back every year - and does all of this on willow twigs and wild grass - and nothing else.

Bez we had millions of these at one time...we called them buffalo. Now post some pictures and show us some financials on this super herd of "I don't need you" cattle. Til then you too are just another one trying to promote yourself while demeaning everyone else. Show me your cattle. I might actually want some.

Now how does someone (you) find so much time for such long post so often when you're supposedly fighting a war somewhere for somebody, been alseep at the stick in a single seater jet flying supersonic, or waltzing around Picadilly Circus all the while raising and marketing this super beef ?? You must be a mixture of all the super heroes in the comic books.

 

[[Bez]]

What you want is an animal that costs you nothing - grows lots of pounds, does not give you real or imaginary health problems, raises a calf and breeds back every year - and does all of this on willow twigs and wild grass - and nothing else.

Bez we had millions of these at one time...we called them buffalo. Now post some pictures and show us some financials on this super herd of "I don't need you" cattle. Til then you too are just another one trying to promote yourself while demeaning everyone else. Show me your cattle. I might actually want some.

I have posted pics of our animals when we had them - do not have enough now to even give it a second thought - I think we might have 8 if I lifted enough cedars to go find them in the bush - and that has never been a secret - because our entire operation is rented out - BSE and US border closures killed us - and that has never been a secret either.

I also have never promoted myself and never gave a damm what anyone thought of me - but always tried to put the info out there as accurately as possible - even if folks did not like the delivery - however you looked at all that was written and decided to attck me personally rather than look at the info directly.

I have never pointed my finger at you directly - only written what I thought - being careful to never single out anyone by name.

Unless of course you are one of the dogs yelping because the rock I threw was close to home - in which case your comments will only prove my point.

As for the time - I am on vacation returning on 26 Dec to the middle east first Christmas home in a while - and yes - if you .want to come up to my home this coming summer when I return (July) - I will be happy to not only take you around to prove what I have done but also what I am doing. I will even throw in a bed, a free meal or two and the drink of your choice - all at my cost - and you can bring the wife or girlfriend if so inclined.

In the end this is about raising an animal that actually does all the work for you - and Aaron is getting there - he is one that seldom posts about real or imaginary probs and always seems to have a practical solution to things - including his cattle. He is good at what he does - darned good - and seldom hears it - so I figured I would say it here

If the comments I wrote are wrong then prove it - otherwise get back on the fence and stay there until you can add something to the discussion - I will leave the last word to you because you want it so bad.

Merry Christmas

[Bez]

 

[I luv herfrds]

Bez you are right on several points.

Now personally speaking to Aaron I would like to see a flatter top line and some more muscle on the hind end. How old is the dam now? Just curious.
Would like to see how he develops through the summer.

 

[TexasBred]

The rock missed by a mile....I attacked noone, only commented on your "not so subtle" indirect name calling to anyone that disagreed with you and operated differently. No need to come by your house. I doubt I would be able to do one single thing correct in your eyes anyway.

 

[Hereford76]

aaron - that older bull must be your MN bull?

i don't know but alot of featherneck bulls like that calf go up into the north country for good reason. he looks like he could cover alot of ground and he has an athletic look to him. I don't mean to be a wise-ass, but i have a feeling if those north country guys were looking a pictures of critters on this site they would probably tell Kernsie would be the person who needs to do some AI if he wanted to be taken serious as a breeder. Your "cheap" commercial bull looks like he would have a difficult time covering big, tuff country.

the mother looks as good any hereford cow i've ever seen posted on here. i'd take her

 

[stockman12]

The vast majority of people on these boards raise less than 10 animals in their parking lot - and as recently seen - keep them in pens and then wonder why "Sarah-Lu is "off her feed.

:clap: :clap: :lol: :lol: bullseye. Not to condemn the hobby ranchers becuase I applaud them for doing what they love, but it is not real life ranching

 

[JHH]

Here is one of my first forage-raised bulls. Up till now, this bull hasn't seen a hint of grain. As a calf and yearling, it's been grass and hay.

We all need to read this to. This guy (While I think he needs more muscle, but I have the same problem with mine) Has done this on grass not grain. I didnt read close enough the first time. His mother is 11 and still looks like a 5 yr old. The maternal benifits out way the muscle in my opinion.

Like bez said he was raised differently than the fluffed and puffed bulls.

 

[Brandonm22]

Here is one of my first forage-raised bulls. Up till now, this bull hasn't seen a hint of grain. As a calf and yearling, it's been grass and hay.

We all need to read this to. This guy (While I think he needs more muscle, but I have the same problem with mine) Has done this on grass not grain. I didnt read close enough the first time. His mother is 11 and still looks like a 5 yr old. The maternal benifits out way the muscle in my opinion.

Like bez said he was raised differently than the fluffed and puffed bulls.

Exactly, and if he had raised him with a full creep feed feeder then backgrounded to silage and barley then placed on winter annuals (IF you even can grow winter annuals that far north you probably are planting before the 4th of July) with all he can eat hay and 3.8 lb of 18% CP high energy bull test fed two times a day he would LOOK a lot different. He would show more muscle expression throughout, he would look thicker, we would all be commenting about how much butt he has and all that finish would cover up most structural flaws. Make cattle walk around out in the cold without plenty too eat and it will work the butt right off of them. They look a lot less desirable, which is why most seedstock guys keep their cattle almost greasy fat year round.

 

[Hereford76]

Here is one of my first forage-raised bulls. Up till now, this bull hasn't seen a hint of grain. As a calf and yearling, it's been grass and hay.

We all need to read this to. This guy (While I think he needs more muscle, but I have the same problem with mine) Has done this on grass not grain. I didnt read close enough the first time. His mother is 11 and still looks like a 5 yr old. The maternal benifits out way the muscle in my opinion.

Like bez said he was raised differently than the fluffed and puffed bulls.

Exactly, and if he had raised him with a full creep feed feeder then backgrounded to silage and barley then placed on winter annuals (IF you even can grow winter annuals that far north you probably are planting before the 4th of July) with all he can eat hay and 3.8 lb of 18% CP high energy bull test fed two times a day he would LOOK a lot different. He would show more muscle expression throughout, he would look thicker, we would all be commenting about how much butt he has and all that finish would cover up most structural flaws. Make cattle walk around out in the cold without plenty too eat and it will work the butt right off of them. They look a lot less desirable, which is why most seedstock guys keep their cattle almost greasy fat year round.

point in case - refer to L1 bull pictured by JHH.

 

[Aaron]

aaron - that older bull must be your MN bull?

Yes, he is my Misty Valley bull. He looks a fair bit like his sire did nowadays. His sire bred till 7 and weighed around the 2700 lb mark.

How old is the dam now?

She is gone now. Sometime either before she had this bull or soon after (don't remember), she got into a soft hole and pulled her hip. She did pretty well on it the entire winter raising this calf, but when it got real cold it did slow her down, so I sent her off. Good cow family. Her dam lasted till 12 years and her granddam lasted till 14 or so. Actually, I have a granddaughter off that cow, that is a paternal sister to that yearling bull. I 'know' she is something people would like to see. I have to go feed, so maybe I will take the camera.



Thank you for your comments Bez. I was hoping you would lend your voice to this discussion. :cowboy:

 

[Aaron]

Here is, what I would term about a 3/4 sister to that bull. Off same herdsire, while this heifer is a granddaughter off of the bull's dam. She comes pretty close to what I like to see in a heifer. Again, this is an all grass heifer.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I'm thinking that bull will look pretty shiny coming off grass next fall-he'll probably gain weight breeeding cows. I was going to ask you to try Lad on that old cow his calves love the grass they graze. I compare bulls to hockey players-I don't tell my boys to go out and drink beer all summer and gain weight because they have a tough season coming up. I expect them to show up at selection camp looking a like an athlete-why would bulls be any different-trust me some og those kids have more mating opportunities than those stuffed up yearling bulls. He loooks fine for your first kick at the cat-besides its his calves that will prove his worth. The best Angus bull I've everr run is an ugly little sucker I bet he settled 70 plus cows this summer at seven years of age-and I know every daughter will be retained.

 

[3waycross]

While I don't agree with everything Bez says he is not completey off track because without saying it directly he has said a man needs to raise the kind of cattle that WORK in his conditions.

You know Bez you can throw rocks at Seedstock producers down "south" since we are all "south" of you but I can guarantee one thing for absolute certain. Most if not all of them would be out of business pretty quick if they weren't producing "big stout made, growthy looking" bull calves for their customer base. You can harangue us all for raising that kind of bull, but go to any bull sale and see how many rangy undermuscled yearlings bring any real money. Now I am not saying it's right I am just saying it is what it is.

Having said all that I will relate a story to you about a friend of mine who owns more mother cows than ANYONE who posts on this forum. I sat next to him at a seedstock plus sale last year and helped him buy bulls. They had to have 3 traits, calving ease(you can't worry about pulling calves when you own 5000 cows), low PAP scores( he runs most of his cows at 9000' or higher) and some ground clearance(rangy and capable of covering some ground). He made a killing since most people there wanted shorter made heavily muscled bulls. This man is ONLY about pounds on the ground with minimal inputs. If I am not mistaken the check I saw for his calves last year was for 1.3 MILLION dollars.

So Bez try not to paint us all with a broad brush it takes all kinds here, as well as, where you hang your hat.