Angus Sires

[DOC HARRIS]

The hair thing is one of those points that will be debated endlessly on these boards until we are all blue in the face. Here's my opinion, FWIF, as I have stated it on a number of occasions:

I am of the opinion that if the judge is not able to see through the hair, if s/he isn't aware of the fitting methods used to emphasise good points and minimise faults, then s/he doesn't have enough understanding of the industry and should not be judging. While we don't have this issue in Australia, I like my cattle to have some hair to work with. A good judge will place animals the same way with or without hair. It is not that hard to determine (for example) the amount of muscle a steer is carrying by visual assessment and when you get your hands on the steer it is even easier, hairy animal or not.

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Keren-

I don't have an argument with the basic statements of your post, - I just think that you are focusing your attention on "SHOW ANIMALS", which, for years and years in the US (and still is the case for that matter) was done for the prime purpose of PUBLIC RELATIONS AND ADVERTISING! The average "farmer" of yesteryear did not know the realities of Genetics and Phenotype, and actually depended on what the displays at Shows and Fairs could "Show and Tell" him. Since the influx of knowledge through TV, Internet, and higher education than elementary school the necessity of advertising through Fairs and Shows is not as critical as it was in the good ol' days!

The majority of judges of Shows that I have observed in the last 30-35 years seem to have a very different agenda than prior to 1970. Very few of the Judges at major shows apply what I call "The Laying on of the Hands", and actually THINK with their hands and brains, but rather through the 'ownership' of the animal, or the breeder of the individual animal! I admit that I am a Hard A--, and opinionated, but in the years of my life since I was 10 years old I have seen more cheating, tricks, schemes, plans, lying, deception, and out and out fraud to the point that my respect for the majority of Show Judges is minimal at best! As a Breeder friend of mine is heard tosay, very frequently, "Judges act as if they don't know their --- from a hot rock!", and I don't disagree with that assessment. The Judging protocols are no longer what is informative and instructive and educational, but what is convenient and expedient on an entirely different level than teaching or preceptive. Rather than blindly accepting a judge's stated opinions as Dogma, I feel that the reasons for the various placings should be made open and clear, and let the chips fall where they may! Acceptable is acceptable - and - lousy is LOUSY, whomever the breeder happens to be!

But - human beings are human beings, and they received their principles from Cain and Able, and it will remain that way until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ! (Which is sooner than one might surmise!!)

DOC HARRIS

 

[highvoltagecattleco]

Two bulls seem to making a big mark for show cows and bulls. G13 Structure and his progeny QLC LaGrand Forum. I'm not big on show animals. Both of these bulls progeny have shown extremely well. I would look at Exar Lutton as well. Structure's EPDs have fallen quite a bit over the last year. Bear Mountain Freightrain's progeny has shown well and his EPDs are freakish.

 

[novatech]

The hair thing is one of those points that will be debated endlessly on these boards until we are all blue in the face. Here's my opinion, FWIF, as I have stated it on a number of occasions:

I am of the opinion that if the judge is not able to see through the hair, if s/he isn't aware of the fitting methods used to emphasise good points and minimise faults, then s/he doesn't have enough understanding of the industry and should not be judging. While we don't have this issue in Australia, I like my cattle to have some hair to work with. A good judge will place animals the same way with or without hair. It is not that hard to determine (for example) the amount of muscle a steer is carrying by visual assessment and when you get your hands on the steer it is even easier, hairy animal or not.

-

Keren-

I don't have an argument with the basic statements of your post, - I just think that you are focusing your attention on "SHOW ANIMALS", which, for years and years in the US (and still is the case for that matter) was done for the prime purpose of PUBLIC RELATIONS AND ADVERTISING! The average "farmer" of yesteryear did not know the realities of Genetics and Phenotype, and actually depended on what the displays at Shows and Fairs could "Show and Tell" him. Since the influx of knowledge through TV, Internet, and higher education than elementary school the necessity of advertising through Fairs and Shows is not as critical as it was in the good ol' days!

The majority of judges of Shows that I have observed in the last 30-35 years seem to have a very different agenda than prior to 1970. Very few of the Judges at major shows apply what I call "The Laying on of the Hands", and actually THINK with their hands and brains, but rather through the 'ownership' of the animal, or the breeder of the individual animal! I admit that I am a Hard A--, and opinionated, but in the years of my life since I was 10 years old I have seen more cheating, tricks, schemes, plans, lying, deception, and out and out fraud to the point that my respect for the majority of Show Judges is minimal at best! As a Breeder friend of mine is heard tosay, very frequently, "Judges act as if they don't know their --- from a hot rock!", and I don't disagree with that assessment. The Judging protocols are no longer what is informative and instructive and educational, but what is convenient and expedient on an entirely different level than teaching or preceptive. Rather than blindly accepting a judge's stated opinions as Dogma, I feel that the reasons for the various placings should be made open and clear, and let the chips fall where they may! Acceptable is acceptable - and - lousy is LOUSY, whomever the breeder happens to be!

But - human beings are human beings, and they received their principles from Cain and Able, and it will remain that way until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ! (Which is sooner than one might surmise!!)

DOC HARRIS

I could not agree more. The worst is that when when we support this, are we not teaching our children improper values? We have take them off the street and that is great but maybe to a lesser evil.

 

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer,

Do you have any pics of the Legacy son?

Nope- He won't be delivered until in May....If he grows out the way I hope- and starts proving up I'll post some in the future ;-)

 

[badroute]

Oldtimer,

What do you think of the Horse Butte bulls? I bought two last year and to make a long story short they are the hardest fleshing bulls I've got. My polled hereford bulls and higher performing angus bulls are in much, much better shape under basicaaly the same conditions. But maybe my expectations of them were too high to start with.

 

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer,

What do you think of the Horse Butte bulls? I bought two last year and to make a long story short they are the hardest fleshing bulls I've got. My polled hereford bulls and higher performing angus bulls are in much, much better shape under basicaaly the same conditions. But maybe my expectations of them were too high to start with.

I've never had any of the Horse Buttes bulls...Most of my experience with the Wye and lower input bulls has come from Diamond D, and Hould angus--as I have a couple neighbors that have bought their bulls for years...And in their cases it was just the opposite--the Wye, Diamond D, Ohlde type bloodlines were the ones coming in in the fall off grass in the best shape- and they were getting some nice moderate framed fleshy type heifers for cow makers...

Might have been the bloodlines you tapped into-- as I noticed in the last catalog I looked at that Horse Butte has quite a bit of variation in their genetics

One of the problems I ran into with using the high performance angus bulls was the young cows putting too much into their calves-and then about year 2 or 3, coming in open or bred late and losing too many cows too young...

I know one situation where over a 2 year period a fella kept 60 AI daughters of Conveyer--within 5 years he only had 5 or 6 left in the herd...Apparently Conveyer who is a +31 for Milk EPD really throws the ability of being able to make milk into lbs into his daughters--but they apparently can't function in our world doing it....

I think anymore with all these ultra high performance bulls (bigger, better, faster) its become more of a balancing act between working funtionality and performance...

But like I said before-- As far as the perfect angus cow or for that matter the perfect cow for all-- it doesn't exist...Just the one that fits best into each persons individual setup, area, and operation....My idea of the closest definition of the perfect cow is the one that makes me the most money year after year.....

I was just talking with an angus breeder friend about bulls and cow types the other day-- and about individual breeders- and he was telling me that he saw some of those cattle raised in our country that do so well here on shortgrass, sagebrush and cactus, and never see a supplement tub or any grain- when he was thru Kentucky and the south he saw the same bloodlines of cattle that looked awful standing in knee deep grass.....That they almost starved to death on those fescue and fast growing pastures without being supplemented...

I think each person has to find what works best for their individual situation-- the reason I don't think the Packers push for "cookie cutter" genetics like they did in the hog industry is going to take hold very well.....

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Oldtimer -

Well presented thoughts! You are so right when you say that the entire operation is a balancing act between functionality and performance.

The biggest problem that I see in Beef Breeding and achieving that desirable goal of perfection is that most Producers ignore the importance of KNOWING what their cow herd is genetically! They seem to think that a "good" bull from . . .whatever " X " Ranch . . . will solve ALL of their problems, and they can rest assured that their genetic formula is established forever!

WRONG!

It takes eternal diligence just to stay even, and knowledge to know how to change it!

Good Post, Oldtimer!

DOC HARRIS

 

[IL Rancher]

Avalon, sorry if I am hijacking your thread again, but I couldn't let Doc's rant go unchallenged. I share many of Doc's concerns about shows but where I come from we have -30 or -40 degree (That's Celsius not Fahrenheit) winters with extreme wind chills and hair is not just something the show jocks are interested in. A thick wooly coat of hair is a definite advantage for commercial cattle production. Most ranchers have little or no straw for bedding and the cows are left to find cover and a comfortable place to lie down in extremely harsh conditions, cold, snow and wind. Under these conditions a good hair coat is desirable and our customers legitimately look for it.

-40 is -40 no matter if you are using F or C for your designation but yep, there sure is some purpose for a good hair coat where it is going to be that cold. We are lucky here in that the lowest we tend to go is -15 or so (That is around -27 C) with a good stiff wind but that is not typical and we are lucky enough to have some trees for shelter. Neighbors run Maine with all the xtra hair but I haven't noticed their critters doing much better than the woolie Red Angus crosses we have.. They are all down right miserable when it is that cold and the sun won't come out.. now, if the sun comes out they all seem fine.


OT, I know of a few fellas and vets who really advocate putting your two year olds with your heifers and breeidng them all to lower preforming bulls for this exact reason. I know my old vet really preached it for longevity in the cattle. I know my three year olds nursing big calves often in just as rough shape as the two year olds that are.. I don't know if it is because are grass is just to washy, the low moisture we had in 05 and 06 during early summer or what contributed to the problem but it was there.. Not so muhc of a problem since we got out of the more preformance orienated cont. bulls and swithed out to some lower preforming Red Angus bulls but our moisture situation was sure a lot different this year too. Now, in a couple years we just might know a bit more, and we might have added some terminal sires to breed to those 4 and ups.

 

[Oldtimer]

My heifers don't get much babying...When I wean them they go into my lot- they do get some Smartlic Stresstubs (haven't had a sick calf since I started that) - and I carry out a few buckets of pellets and put in troughs (more to just gentle them down a little and get them used to having someone around)...Then after about a month they go back on grass with the cows- and from then on they're treated identically as the cows- except for the registered ones that are taken off in the spring to AI...They get fed a little grain while feeding them MGA for synchronization...

 

[tom4018]

Seen several different breeders using this bull, 13977765 . Seen a few weanlings out of him at a sale, they looked ok. Seen one yearling that I remeber and she was nice. Others must have liked them because they sold high.

 

[SEC]

The only good thing about the Freedom cattle is that they have hair.

 

[farmerD44]

as always, i highly recommend sitz alliance 6595 after seeing how great our first calf crop has been developing from a son of his we own. He is proven to be one of the best all around bulls in the breed from what i have read and from my own experience.

 

[Jake]

Really a nice powerful animal. A really impressive animal in person, lots of muscle, fleshing ability, volume and just all around a nice animal.

Around here lots of Angus guys AI to Travler 004 for cows and Matrix for Hefiers.

On the advise of af riend who happens to also be my AI Tech and Genex Semen distributor, I have purchaed semen from a bull named Marathon. who happens to be a sire who is getting a lot of attention and should be a major contendor in the next year or so. His semen is available this year on a limited basis.

The Marathon at Genex??? http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 22&lang=EN
I was not available that they were having supply problems. What happened??

 

[Chuckie]

The Rito bull looks perfect for a meat producing machine, but he is a little low on a few numbers. Scrotal, IMR and UREA. I am not going to pay as much attention to the WW and YW since I am not seeing consistency in animals fed the same, same age, at the same farm, and the lower WW and YW are larger than some of the others showing lower weights.

I wish they would just go to the actual weights. I would like to see BW listed as 68 lbs, WW-710 lbs and YW 1300lbs. dThen I can see what I am actually getting. Some sales don't offer all of the info.

I like Spur Success. #143273207. He has good numbers all the way across. He isn't a perfect show bull, but he is huge in body mass. He is correct and I see no reason that he would pass weak traits. He is the biggest bull that I have seen in person.
BW..-.8
WW..54
YW...112
YHT...1.1
SC.....53
Milk...24
IMF...+53
UREA..+47
We have one daughter of Spur Success, and she is giving us the best numbers along with her calf.

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