Angus must be proven hornless?

[WAguy]

I have a backyard cow that is 1/2 Jersey and 1/2 Lowline Angus. I AI'd her to a red Lowline bull. I just discovered that the resulting calf born May 16 was sprouting horns, so I disbudded her today after taking pictures.

I had hoped to never disbud/dehorn again - one reason I selected a supposedly angus type bull. I emailed the bull owner and asked if he knew his bull had the horned gene. He said, "he also has some key in him, so you might get a bud, but highly improbable. don't your jersey's have the horn gene?"

I assume "key" is short for Chianina. Anyway, sounds like I need to educate on genetics (polled is dominant, doesn't matter if Jersey has horned gene). This raises some questions.

I don't know or care if his bull is registered as a lowline or angus. But I'm just thinking if you're advertising as some sort of angus, it ought to act like one. Isn't it the breed standard that bulls and cows must be homozygous polled? Is there a DNA test, or must one breed to a horned breed to find out if carrying the horned recessive gene?

Another question. When I bought my cow, the seller gave me papers, and said if I kept breeding her and her daughter to lowline, at 7/8 I could register the grandson/granddaughter as purebred. But couldn't that 'purebred' get the horned gene passed down from the Jersey side? Seems this practice of breeding up could cause alot of problems.

Thanks for any info.

 

[KNERSIE]

Seems this practice of breeding up could cause alot of problems.

That is true, I am not sure about Angus or Lowline breed standards, but certainly wouldn't want any jersey in a registered beef breed.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

WA,

A "dominant" gene doesn't mean that trait is dominant in one animal over another, but rather that trait is dominant within a pair of genes.

So in the case of your situation, your cow is likely horned, right? So that means its horned gene is likely xx. Small 'x' equals horned. In other words, homozygous horned.

Your bull is definitely NOT homozygous polled, so his genes are Xx, with the large 'X' meaning polled.

When mating these two animals together, you can get the following possible offspring:

xx
xx
xX
xX

So this means you have a 50/50 chance of getting horned offspring. If the bull was homozygous polled (XX), it would knock the horns off everything.

Rod

 

[Frankie]

You can't register an animal with horns with the American Angus Association. With an "angus type" animal, you get what you get.

 

[iowahawkeyes]

Doesn't anyone think it is odd, funny, strange that there is a Lowline bull with Chi (one of the largest breeds in the world) in it? I do.

 

[dun]

Doesn't anyone think it is odd, funny, strange that there is a Lowline bull with Chi (one of the largest breeds in the world) in it? I do.

Yup, semed strange to me too. Maybe it was a midgit Chi.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

You sure they weren't scurs?

 

[WAguy]

Not scurs, as I understand they move with the skin - these were fixed to the skull.

My cow does not have horns, as her sire was a pure Lowline angus which was hopefully homozygous polled. So she would have a horned gene and a polled gene. This bull should have the same (he is polled, yet calf has horns) so there was a 1/4 chance of getting a horned calf.

Yeah, I thought it odd that Chianina is in there. Maybe he's only 1/16. Supposedly only 45# at birth. I intend to ask more questions, but am just trying to get the big picture on all this, and see what the expectations should be.

Frankie, I realize you can't register a horned animal as angus. But you can be hornless and still carry the horned gene. Is there any requirement to prove or show that there is no horned gene? And if it shows up later through breeding, is there any consequence? Is the registration revoked?

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, I realize you can't register a horned animal as angus. But you can be hornless and still carry the horned gene. Is there any requirement to prove or show that there is no horned gene? And if it shows up later through breeding, is there any consequence? Is the registration revoked?

Yes, the registration is revoked. Of course, someone has to report it to the Association for that to happen. A responsible breeder would do that.

 

[BAGTIC]

Being that he has chi in him he is more than likely heter polled. That means he carries a horned gene. The cow obviously carries on since I dont know of any polled jerseys. You breed hetero polled to horned and you got 50/50 shot of horned.

Google "polled Jerseys". You will find several, some of them very nice. One cow was producing 90 pounds per day at 6% butterfat. That is twice the fat in storebought 'milk'.

 

[buckwheat_87]

iowahawkeyes wrote:
Doesn't anyone think it is odd, funny, strange that there is a Lowline bull with Chi (one of the largest breeds in the world) in it? I do.


Yup, semed strange to me too. Maybe it was a midgit Chi.

Dont they call them Wee Chi's?

 

[WAguy]

Thanks for the reply, Frankie and others. I had thought the thread had died, so haven't looked for a while. In the meantime, I asked the seller of my cow a question. When I bought her as a calf, he said if I kept breeding her to Lowline angus, at 7/8 I could register as fullblood. It just occurred to me, however, that that 7/8 calf could get the horned gene passed down from the Jersey. After I asked that, he wrote:

"The reason there is so low a possibility for horns is because Lowlines have no horned gene and Jerseys have a tendancy. With each followup breeding with fullblood Lowline bulls the horned gene gets diluted even more. At 7/8 it is nearly gone. If you breed to any animal with a horned gene you run the chance of horns or scurs. Commercial Angus, red and black carry a recessive horn gene. As long as you breed to registered Lowlines you can register the progeny with no doubts. Purebred calves must be subject to dna testing."
End Quote

Does this make sense? I didn't know the horned gene got diluted. I thought you either got it or you didn't. And I wouldn't think commercial (standard) angus should have any more horn genes than lowlines. Seems it could sneak into any line of cattle if you allow breeding up from mixed breeds that include horned.

Bagtic, the polled Jersey would be nice, though I'd have to start over.

I started researching Chianina, and realized that might explain some of the interesting features of my two calves from this bull. One calf had short bristly hair. Another has black muzzle and eyes - looks like a clown. Just hope this "small bull" doesn't up and make a 100 pound calf on one of these breedings and kill a cow.

 

[Bez>]

"The reason there is so low a possibility for horns is because Lowlines have no horned gene and Jerseys have a tendancy. With each followup breeding with fullblood Lowline bulls the horned gene gets diluted even more. At 7/8 it is nearly gone. If you breed to any animal with a horned gene you run the chance of horns or scurs. Commercial Angus, red and black carry a recessive horn gene. As long as you breed to registered Lowlines you can register the progeny with no doubts. Purebred calves must be subject to dna testing."
End Quote

After reading this - this guy is a quack - run from him and his animals and especially his (lack of) knowledge.

He is out to sell - not improve.

Bez>

 

[msscamp]

I didn't know the horned gene got diluted. I thought you either got it or you didn't.

It doesn't - once it's there, it's there forever.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I didn't know the horned gene got diluted. I thought you either got it or you didn't.

It doesn't - once it's there, it's there forever.

If you keep breeding the offspring to homozygous polled bulls, you'll eventually get an offspring thats also homozygous polled.

Rod

 

[MikeC]

You can't register an animal with horns with the American Angus Association. With an "angus type" animal, you get what you get.

CAB accepts horns. Are these "angus type" cattle?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

WAguy - you are right. The gene is not "diluted". And you can breed 5 - 10 - 20 generations to a PP (homo Polled) bull and each generation could have the H gene. Now that is not likely, BUT, if the H gene is passed each generation, it's just as viable a gene as the first Pp cow.
Your seller is not very knowlegeable about genetics - just a multiplier of cattle.
If your cow is a registered 1/2 blood lowline Angus, than her offspring sired by a PB Lowline Angus, will be a 3/4 blood; that 3/4 blood bred to a PB will produce a 7/8%.
You CAN DNA test for the Polled factor.
Angus are not required to be tested for the Horn gene. If they are REGISTERED, than their genetics are known. If a REGISTERED Angus shows up with horns, you can be sure there was a "mix up" in the pedigree!

 

[WAguy]

Thanks for confirming some fuzzy memories. I took an animal science genetics class in 1982 before I changed majors and haven't used it since. Now I just want some easy backyard milk and beef. I like the mix of breeds I have – just want to get rid of disbudding.

Angus are not required to be tested for the Horn gene. If they are REGISTERED, than their genetics are known. If a REGISTERED Angus shows up with horns, you can be sure there was a "mix up" in the pedigree!

Does the standard Angus association allow breeding up from crossbreds? If so, then I suspect they would have the same problem - not necessarily a mix up, but an allowed way to get undesired genes in there. I'm just trying to figure out how all these breed things work.

My AI guy runs commercial angus, and a Holstein dairy. Says he gets angus bulls from another place, and he's had to dehorn some holstein cross calves from those bulls (they jumped the fence to the dairy cows). Don't know if those bulls were registered or not. I had to explain that that shouldn't happen with a purebred angus. Seems to be alot of lack of understanding out there, not necessarily intentional deception.

 

[Frankie]

Does the standard Angus association allow breeding up from crossbreds? If so, then I suspect they would have the same problem - not necessarily a mix up, but an allowed way to get undesired genes in there. I'm just trying to figure out how all these breed things work.

The American Angus Association doesn't register anything "bred up." Each registered animal must have registered parents, who had registered parents, etc. Hereford Assn is the same way.

 

[msscamp]

I didn't know the horned gene got diluted. I thought you either got it or you didn't.

It doesn't - once it's there, it's there forever.

If you keep breeding the offspring to homozygous polled bulls, you'll eventually get an offspring thats also homozygous polled.

Rod

How long does that take, Rod? I wasn't aware that was even a possibility - thanks!