Warrior2154
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Hello all. Just looking for information on Angus cow families such as characteristics and any info is helpful.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Angus Families
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Gators Rule
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that's a somewhat impossible task unless someone has a link to a prior question. Can you be more specific?
Warrior2154
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Just trying to see what good cow families are like is May, Forever Lady, etc... What are good lines and what are not so good lines?
Massey135
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I'm curious as well. Surprised you haven't gotten more replies.
Like Gator Rule said a very difficult question due to the extensive number of cow families within the angus breed. Another issue is the number of branches each of the family trees has. An example in our herd would be the Pride cow family the first branch began with:
S F & L Prides Pride 3661 Reg# 11445077 we still have a number of cows in our herd that trace back to this cow she was our original Pride.
Several years after aquireing the first pride cow we added the second Pride cow family:
Finks Pride 6211 345 71 Reg# 12787913 now both of these are Pride cows but they are from totally different Pride lines.
We also have Finks Pride 065 6198 LB Reg# 13847351 Again a Pride but a totally different Pride line.
These would be the three foundation Pride cows within our cow herd.
The Beauty line in our herd began with VDAR Beauty 3018 Reg#11950274 we purchased several embroyos out of this cow and Traveler 8180 and it has been a good line for us.
Our Blackcap line started with Twin Valley Blackcap 239C Reg#12061017 This old cow was one of those that no matter what you bred her to it just worked we still have a large number of her progency working in the herd she was a good one.
Our Forever Lady Family began with GDAR SVF Forever Lady 214D Reg# 12309325 we purchased an embryo calf out of her and GDAR Rainmaker 340 that would have been in 1998 and the cow is still in production the only problem is out of 11 calves we have only had two heifers and one of those was out of Morgan's Direction and tested positive for NH. The other is a 2000 model out of 036 and she is also still in production. I am sure hopeing for daughters out of both these old cows this year.
Our Elluna cow family started with VDAR Elluna 97 Reg#11100316 this cow was awesom we saw her when she was reallly old and she was still impressive. We have a number of daughters and granddaughters working in our herd.
The Stephanie family began with Twin Valley Stephanie 1977 Reg# 12990812 this has been a solid cow family for us.
We added the Bridget cow family in 2006 and it has been an excellent addition to our herd with the foundation to this branch being RB Bridget 658 C11 111 Reg# 14913872 and her maternal sister in 2009 RB Bridget 831 C11 5X25 Reg#16099987
We have a few other cow families but these are the major ones in our herd. I guess what I am trying to say that each herd finds the families that work for them and build on that foundation.
S F & L Prides Pride 3661 Reg# 11445077 we still have a number of cows in our herd that trace back to this cow she was our original Pride.
Several years after aquireing the first pride cow we added the second Pride cow family:
Finks Pride 6211 345 71 Reg# 12787913 now both of these are Pride cows but they are from totally different Pride lines.
We also have Finks Pride 065 6198 LB Reg# 13847351 Again a Pride but a totally different Pride line.
These would be the three foundation Pride cows within our cow herd.
The Beauty line in our herd began with VDAR Beauty 3018 Reg#11950274 we purchased several embroyos out of this cow and Traveler 8180 and it has been a good line for us.
Our Blackcap line started with Twin Valley Blackcap 239C Reg#12061017 This old cow was one of those that no matter what you bred her to it just worked we still have a large number of her progency working in the herd she was a good one.
Our Forever Lady Family began with GDAR SVF Forever Lady 214D Reg# 12309325 we purchased an embryo calf out of her and GDAR Rainmaker 340 that would have been in 1998 and the cow is still in production the only problem is out of 11 calves we have only had two heifers and one of those was out of Morgan's Direction and tested positive for NH. The other is a 2000 model out of 036 and she is also still in production. I am sure hopeing for daughters out of both these old cows this year.
Our Elluna cow family started with VDAR Elluna 97 Reg#11100316 this cow was awesom we saw her when she was reallly old and she was still impressive. We have a number of daughters and granddaughters working in our herd.
The Stephanie family began with Twin Valley Stephanie 1977 Reg# 12990812 this has been a solid cow family for us.
We added the Bridget cow family in 2006 and it has been an excellent addition to our herd with the foundation to this branch being RB Bridget 658 C11 111 Reg# 14913872 and her maternal sister in 2009 RB Bridget 831 C11 5X25 Reg#16099987
We have a few other cow families but these are the major ones in our herd. I guess what I am trying to say that each herd finds the families that work for them and build on that foundation.
Popular is not necessarily the same as good.
Traditionally Angus are named according to their maternal line, foundation families would include but not limited to Erica, Queen Mother,Pride of Aberdeen, Miss Burgess, Beauty of Hayston, Blackbird. From these came Juana Erica, Blackcap, Mayflower, Bemindful Maid and so on. These secondary families came about when a particularly outstanding individual founded a branch or tribe of descent. 'Forever Lady' is not really a cow family as such as they are simply descendents of Forever of Wye or his sons, in particular Candolier Forever and Forever 924 GDAR. The two dominant lines of 'Forever Lady' are those descending from Forever Lady 163 GDAR and Forever Lady 395 GDAR though they stem from the influential Airyland Stock Farm herd they are respectively from the Kem and Duchess family's.
As for the traits expressed by each family, in my view the Breed as a whole is so outcrossed that characteristics that would be expected to be found in cow lines are so diluted and dispersed with the primary component of fixing traits (line breeding) being out of fashion and also discriminated against within the numbers based system I doubt the value of selecting based on family name anymore, that is not to say you can't find good breeding individuals that carry this or that popular name but to say 'she's a Forever Lady' means so little in actual breeding terms.
Traditionally Angus are named according to their maternal line, foundation families would include but not limited to Erica, Queen Mother,Pride of Aberdeen, Miss Burgess, Beauty of Hayston, Blackbird. From these came Juana Erica, Blackcap, Mayflower, Bemindful Maid and so on. These secondary families came about when a particularly outstanding individual founded a branch or tribe of descent. 'Forever Lady' is not really a cow family as such as they are simply descendents of Forever of Wye or his sons, in particular Candolier Forever and Forever 924 GDAR. The two dominant lines of 'Forever Lady' are those descending from Forever Lady 163 GDAR and Forever Lady 395 GDAR though they stem from the influential Airyland Stock Farm herd they are respectively from the Kem and Duchess family's.
As for the traits expressed by each family, in my view the Breed as a whole is so outcrossed that characteristics that would be expected to be found in cow lines are so diluted and dispersed with the primary component of fixing traits (line breeding) being out of fashion and also discriminated against within the numbers based system I doubt the value of selecting based on family name anymore, that is not to say you can't find good breeding individuals that carry this or that popular name but to say 'she's a Forever Lady' means so little in actual breeding terms.
pdfangus
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robert":2s5yu6nt said:
THANK YOU ROBERT....YOU SAID IN A POSITIVE WAY WHAT i IMPLIED IN A NEGATIVE WAY....ON ANOTHER SIMILAR THREAD
the problem is the lack of a quest for perfection in a female and then line breeding from that female just as is done from bulls....
people focus on the name and not the perfection....
having the word pride in nine generations of pedigree does not automatically imply you have something to be proud of.
funtion and form are the desired end results....and they may very well be very different in different environs.
if you start with famous names and build a herd around them and continue with the famous names then your best cows will have famous names.....
if you start with plain jane names and build a good herd around them then your best cows will not have famous names....but may well be just as good in your environment.
form and function....
Warrior2154
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I do appreciate the information you all have posted. It has helped me out because I was worried about picking a wrong cow family and then wasting money. Reason I started this thread is to gain info because I do have a tank I just need to get it filled. Then I was thinking of getting some embryos to store in there to then put in commercial gelbvieh cows to start my angus herd that way. So when I start looking for embryos I wanted to have as much as I can to buy the right ones.
Warrior2154":2o21r4iw said:
many times when embryo's are offered out of 'great cows' with not much said about the sires there is a good chance those matings were made to meet the 'hot and new' criteria rather than an objective plan to produce cows that would become the future generation, storing embryo's with the idea of eventually putting them in could leave you with a bunch of eggs or future progeny with undesirable pedigrees. You'd be way further ahead to go find a few cows of the type and kind you like from a breeder you trust and then use the sires you like on them. All that glitters is not gold
pdfangus
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rather than worrying about family and name.....
I would encourage you to study the production history fo the cows producing the embryos and the production history of their ancestors....
I am not talking about their epd profile or their dna test results.....
I am talking about lbs of calf weaned and number of calves weaned and weaning weight ratios within the herd.
in other words is that cow a superior cow in that herd among her contemporaries ( assuming true contemproaries)
identify the cows of interest and then ask to see the cows....
then select the phenotype of the cows that suit you.
if it does not all work out then move to the next breeder.....
if the breeder won't open his records.....
then move to the next breeder
make sure the animals you select come from an environment that is similar to the one you will provide.... when buying embyos this is less of a concern becasue you can select the ones that survive your environment.
to be a breeder you must similarly apply selection to your production....
just because you bought an embryo does not mean the calf should forever be spared from scrutiny.
I would encourage you to study the production history fo the cows producing the embryos and the production history of their ancestors....
I am not talking about their epd profile or their dna test results.....
I am talking about lbs of calf weaned and number of calves weaned and weaning weight ratios within the herd.
in other words is that cow a superior cow in that herd among her contemporaries ( assuming true contemproaries)
identify the cows of interest and then ask to see the cows....
then select the phenotype of the cows that suit you.
if it does not all work out then move to the next breeder.....
if the breeder won't open his records.....
then move to the next breeder
make sure the animals you select come from an environment that is similar to the one you will provide.... when buying embyos this is less of a concern becasue you can select the ones that survive your environment.
to be a breeder you must similarly apply selection to your production....
just because you bought an embryo does not mean the calf should forever be spared from scrutiny.
Good point pdfangus don't get caught up in the hype of a cow family just find yourself a good cow and build from that.
Gizmom
Gizmom
Massey135
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I absolutely support what Yall are saying bout selection but there is some real $value added when selling/promoting foundation family lines. Certain amount of nostalgia as well.
cow pollinater
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That's all it is right there.Massey135":dmp23rgh said:
Bloodlines do matter as it's a mark of greatness but it only continues to matter if the animal in question has retained the qualities of that bloodline. Look for outstanding individuals and alot of times they'll have a good cow family backing them but it's always best to look for outstanding individuals.
Dylan Biggs
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robert":xt2dzhq8 said:
Well said!
Was line breeding ever in fashion?
Warrior2154
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You all have helped put my mind to ease about selecting female angus. I guess the next part of this topic is how do you select sires for each cow? Any tips?
Sire selection has lots of varibles A I or natural service. With A I you can make different decissions on each cow. Look at each cow and see what improvements they need then use the EPDs to improve on that trait and keep going down the line like that.Or you can just use the bull of the month.
Warrior2154
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I plan to do all AI work, and keep females and sell the bulls. Any AI companies better than others?
DOC HARRIS
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Warrior2154-
Your post here regarding Angus Cow families has opened up an almost excluded and rejected aspect of the Angus Breed's 'female replacement selection protocols' of yesteryear! When the Angus breed began to increase it's numbers in America, there was no hard and fast method of determination of so-called "Beef Cattle Quality" in the breeding methods of the day. If Farmer Joe down the road developed a cow which turned out to produce a heifer calf which was considered "better" than the average calf of the neighboring farmers, why - that calf was named - - - something - - like - for example - "Princess of Old McDonald". Or - "Barbara of Cockamamie", (not really!). But that was the way that' word of mouth' advertising and information was passed from generation to generation. They had no EPDs, or DNA Markers, or scientific methods of genetic determination. The next logical step of progression in recognizing quality of cattle performance was through local fairs and cattle shows. Ol' Barbara of Cockamamie had a heifer calf by some bull (??) and she won a Blue Ribbon at such and such a County (or Regional or State) Fair and every farmer within a 50 mile radius had to have some of that "Cockamamie" blood. Then some 'better' bull was bred to that Cockamamie heifer and that started the "Cockamamie Family" going! Zowie! Ol' McDonald's Bull and Cockamamie's "Babs" had a Heifer (McDonalds Babs - or some such) that took the 'Chautauqua Grand Champion Trophy" award - and that started the "run" for the Names of great cows! It was a real fad at one time a Hundred years ago to have lots of families represented in your herd, whether they were worth a cow pie or not. The quality of meritorious characteristics and traits were attributed to the female side of the matings more than to the male side. This, of course, was prior to Artificial Insemination, whereby one bull can command an influence over thousands of progeny.
I think that you can easily determine that the dominance of one cow is limited to a great extent by virtue of the fact that she may not produce thousands of progeny - that is until the flushing of ovum became the vogue! How influential the establishment of a "Family Name" in the breed is of importance can best be determined by your own selection protocols and how particular you are in your application of importance to traits and characteristics of replacement heifers and bull choices. Selection through the use of EPDs, DNA, Functional traits, and MVPs (Molecular Value Predictions), along with Feed Efficiency genetics make more sesnse to me in selecting for PROFIT in the Beef Business than hanging my hopes on a cute sentimental name of a certain cow.
But that is just me.
DOC HARRIS
Your post here regarding Angus Cow families has opened up an almost excluded and rejected aspect of the Angus Breed's 'female replacement selection protocols' of yesteryear! When the Angus breed began to increase it's numbers in America, there was no hard and fast method of determination of so-called "Beef Cattle Quality" in the breeding methods of the day. If Farmer Joe down the road developed a cow which turned out to produce a heifer calf which was considered "better" than the average calf of the neighboring farmers, why - that calf was named - - - something - - like - for example - "Princess of Old McDonald". Or - "Barbara of Cockamamie", (not really!). But that was the way that' word of mouth' advertising and information was passed from generation to generation. They had no EPDs, or DNA Markers, or scientific methods of genetic determination. The next logical step of progression in recognizing quality of cattle performance was through local fairs and cattle shows. Ol' Barbara of Cockamamie had a heifer calf by some bull (??) and she won a Blue Ribbon at such and such a County (or Regional or State) Fair and every farmer within a 50 mile radius had to have some of that "Cockamamie" blood. Then some 'better' bull was bred to that Cockamamie heifer and that started the "Cockamamie Family" going! Zowie! Ol' McDonald's Bull and Cockamamie's "Babs" had a Heifer (McDonalds Babs - or some such) that took the 'Chautauqua Grand Champion Trophy" award - and that started the "run" for the Names of great cows! It was a real fad at one time a Hundred years ago to have lots of families represented in your herd, whether they were worth a cow pie or not. The quality of meritorious characteristics and traits were attributed to the female side of the matings more than to the male side. This, of course, was prior to Artificial Insemination, whereby one bull can command an influence over thousands of progeny.
I think that you can easily determine that the dominance of one cow is limited to a great extent by virtue of the fact that she may not produce thousands of progeny - that is until the flushing of ovum became the vogue! How influential the establishment of a "Family Name" in the breed is of importance can best be determined by your own selection protocols and how particular you are in your application of importance to traits and characteristics of replacement heifers and bull choices. Selection through the use of EPDs, DNA, Functional traits, and MVPs (Molecular Value Predictions), along with Feed Efficiency genetics make more sesnse to me in selecting for PROFIT in the Beef Business than hanging my hopes on a cute sentimental name of a certain cow.
But that is just me.
DOC HARRIS
Where are you located? Theres several good A I companies Accelerated Genetics,Select Sires,ABS,and Genex give them all a call and get there sire catologs and they can give you the number to your local reps and they should be able to help a little with sire selection
Warrior2154
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Doc. Your post makes a lot of sense like the others have. The reason I started the post was because I had talked to different breeders. Some said anything abigale is always good and others said the forever ladies were great, at the same time some said it's like picking chevy or ford it's more what you prefer, and finally some said there are good and bad cows in every cow family line. So in light of the info there I figured I would open up a discussion and see what responses people had. I gather that I need to set my selection criteria such as epds, physical characteristics, and goals and then go find those animals. Appreciate all the info from everyone.
