Angus Fads

[CreekAngus]

Looking at my recent sales books they all start out," Here at *************, we don't chase fads" (Branded: that was a friendly poke and one day you can start out you sale book that way). I'm trying to figure out what a fad is in the Angus industry. Is it Precision who took out half my herd and divorce took the other half? Is it Cowboy Up or Acclaim? GAR or SAV, is it Charlo influenced bulls? What are these fads no breeder claims to not be chasing?

 

[Luckiamute]

Is/was Byergo Black Magic a fad? Wasn't it just last summer and fall that his semen was selling for $300 to $500 per straw? No one seemed to have any available. Now, ABS is running a spring special and you can get Black Magic for as low as $40 a straw this month.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

The only fad they are all chasing is the fad of creating a need to fit their supply.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

The only fad they are all chasing is the fad of creating a need to fit their supply.

You might be on to something Sim.

 

[Ebenezer]

With the changes of indexes or non-indexes (depends on who masters the definition) AAA is admitting that imbalanced cattle are a problem breed-wide from carcass chasing. In other words, the Angus fad of late and wide was a search for the most terminal type. Bulls lost the proper structure and masculine look, cows became fat feedlot steer looking things with an udder glued on, ... Some folks chase names, some folks chase a particular EPD, but overall the AAA has let the breed ignore the value of a strong maternal base of cows that can work like commercial cows and last as long as those commercial producers want them to last under commercial conditions. We are drowning in advertising of understocked and over fed animals that are supposed to handle whatever. They will not. Feet and legs have been forgotten, disposition has been forgotten, the spotlights blind our eyes and folks buy right on without seeing. Three big ones that have hurt commercial producers interest: MM, MW & $B.

 

[NEFarmwife]

With the changes of indexes or non-indexes (depends on who masters the definition) AAA is admitting that imbalanced cattle are a problem breed-wide from carcass chasing. In other words, the Angus fad of late and wide was a search for the most terminal type. Bulls lost the proper structure and masculine look, cows became fat feedlot steer looking things with an udder glued on, ... Some folks chase names, some folks chase a particular EPD, but overall the AAA has let the breed ignore the value of a strong maternal base of cows that can work like commercial cows and last as long as those commercial producers want them to last under commercial conditions. We are drowning in advertising of understocked and over fed animals that are supposed to handle whatever. They will not. Feet and legs have been forgotten, disposition has been forgotten, the spotlights blind our eyes and folks buy right on without seeing. Three big ones that have hurt commercial producers interest: MM, MW & $B.

I honestly think, despite not agreeing with some of what you say...you've been very influential in my learning process on data. I'd tend to agree with you now, more than ever.

 

[True Grit Farms]

The Angus fad has been going strong for 40+ years, and I see no reason why it won't continue to do so.

 

[Bcompton53]

With the changes of indexes or non-indexes (depends on who masters the definition) AAA is admitting that imbalanced cattle are a problem breed-wide from carcass chasing. In other words, the Angus fad of late and wide was a search for the most terminal type. Bulls lost the proper structure and masculine look, cows became fat feedlot steer looking things with an udder glued on, ... Some folks chase names, some folks chase a particular EPD, but overall the AAA has let the breed ignore the value of a strong maternal base of cows that can work like commercial cows and last as long as those commercial producers want them to last under commercial conditions. We are drowning in advertising of understocked and over fed animals that are supposed to handle whatever. They will not. Feet and legs have been forgotten, disposition has been forgotten, the spotlights blind our eyes and folks buy right on without seeing. Three big ones that have hurt commercial producers interest: MM, MW & $B.

This is where I struggle. I don't want the cattle you are describing, and it seems like it's harder and harder to find bulls to use that fit anything other than big growth.

 

[CreekAngus]

Last night I was texting a breeder (should I name drop here?) about this very question. The fad he and I see is all this high indexing cattle, that truly don't index as the numbers show. I have a cow in my herd, she's better than good in phenotype, I have no issue with duplicating her, she's in the top 3% of the Angus herd in WW, YW and $B. She's a EPD superstar across the board, in other categories she's in the top 10 to 25 percent. Her bull calf is top 5% by the numbers. In my herd I have an EPD albatross, complete disaster. Bottom 5% almost across the board. 8 year old cow, looks like's shes 4, has the udder of a heifer, easy fleshing, square hipped, deep sided, wide topped, feminine, docile and maternal. Bull calf at her side bottom 10%, born a few days before the bull whose an EPD superstar, but already showing he will be wider, stouter and is growthier. When people come to my place, they are amazed that the EPD superstar isn't the albatross. I like my cows and how they look, but I would take 10 more exact copies of my EPD nightmare. What I see in the Angus industry is a fad based on numbers, but it doesn't actually reflect on what a good cow really is. I don't like to rip on other breeders, but when I look at Deer Valley, I see a bunch of high indexing, rangy, no rear, narrow topped cattle. The EPDs are amazing with that breeder, but I don't want'em.

 

[CreekAngus]

Last week I started a thread, stating I was going to look at using Duff Honcho in my program. Almost every post was the same, his numbers aren't good. Here's what I know, he has the phenotype I'm looking for and the breeder that owns him, uses him. If we keep chasing numbers in this breed, more and more commercial folks will look at other breeds.

 

[76 Bar]

This is where I struggle. I don't want the cattle you are describing, and it seems like it's harder and harder to find bulls to use that fit anything other than big growth.

You're right & you're not alone in your quest. 8) Ebenezer's comments are spot on. FWIW...do your homework and find long established seed stock breeders who have a commercial mind set and cull ruthlessly for economically relevant traits.

 

[dbird33]

I'm still really new to breeding cattle and didn't do so hot on my first try (used the hot bulls). Over the past two years I've focused on balanced cattle and phenotype. My philosophy now, right or wrong, is to avoid extremes as much as possible and try to get everything to fall between the top and bottom 25% of the breed. I've also switched from sampling a ton of different bulls, trying to fix specific flaws in individual cows, to using one or two bulls across the whole herd. Hoping to gain consistency there.
I changed course on a lot of this due to reading this board over the past three years.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Last week I started a thread, stating I was going to look at using Duff Honcho in my program. Almost every post was the same, his numbers aren't good. Here's what I know, he has the phenotype I'm looking for and the breeder that owns him, uses him. If we keep chasing numbers in this breed, more and more commercial folks will look at other breeds.

I like the way you think, and agree with all you ave said. I don't breed black angus, but I apply the phenotype thoughts to all my breedings while keeping EPD #s in mind. I have a specific phenotype I'm looking for and hold true to that, I will not vary from that to chase #s

 

[CreekAngus]

I'm still really new to breeding cattle and didn't do so hot on my first try (used the hot bulls). Over the past two years I've focused on balanced cattle and phenotype. My philosophy now, right or wrong, is to avoid extremes as much as possible and try to get everything to fall between the top and bottom 25% of the breed. I've also switched from sampling a ton of different bulls, trying to fix specific flaws in individual cows, to using one or two bulls across the whole herd. Hoping to gain consistency there.
I changed course on a lot of this due to reading this board over the past three years.

If you have a smaller/smallish herd using only one or two bulls also helps you figure out if the sire is worth using, using 10 bulls on 10 cows means your really don't have a contemporary group. I've gone to two bulls, one for heifers and one for everything else. I have a friend who runs 300 head of registered angus and only breeds to five different bulls a year and four of those are usually just a sampling, where one proven bull is used to breed 150.

 

[Ebenezer]

Last week I started a thread, stating I was going to look at using Duff Honcho in my program. Almost every post was the same, his numbers aren't good. Here's what I know, he has the phenotype I'm looking for and the breeder that owns him, uses him. If we keep chasing numbers in this breed, more and more commercial folks will look at other breeds.

I was guilty of the comment. I look at trends in EPDs and I look at EPDs of animals as a herd or sourced from a herd to give me clues. The actual numbers are pretty meaningless for many. So I mentioned HP EPD as a note of being lower than some or maybe lower than I would trial. I do not remember the number but it was not going to be a good point of attraction for the bull. If there is data or assumptions, I am not going to use a low HP bull. Just am not.

One long term herd with a national reputation had a big run on negative CEM a few years ago. I knew that meant that I did not want the average animal from that herd. Some years later I found the individual I was looking for. It sounds like the remarks of a traitor from one who totes linebreeding but this bull was an outlier of their program but was bred as an outlier and not the product of a random sort of genes.

Since we all know that the EPDs are representing the knowns of an animal the best we can do is take a look and see if the numbers come close to what you know works in your environment or what I know works in my environment. I peruse thru sale catalogs and occasionally see a cow with Bonsma type conformation. Most are high MM that would never work here. I've grown to expect that. So I do use numbers and phenotype but look at numbers in a fuzzy sense of exactness.

 

[CattleMan1920]

The Angus fad has been going strong for 40+ years, and I see no reason why it won't continue to do so.

That means it's no longer a fad and is more like a long term trend.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Looking at my recent sales books they all start out," Here at *************, we don't chase fads" (Branded: that was a friendly poke and one day you can start out you sale book that way). I'm trying to figure out what a fad is in the Angus industry. Is it Precision who took out half my herd and divorce took the other half? Is it Cowboy Up or Acclaim? GAR or SAV, is it Charlo influenced bulls? What are these fads no breeder claims to not be chasing?

My sales book will probably start out "Here's what we have, take it or leave it" LOL!

 

[Silver]

The Angus fad has been going strong for 40+ years, and I see no reason why it won't continue to do so.

Seems strange to me that depending on where you are this may or may not be true. I saw a 6 or 7 year blip for Black Angus, it's over here now. Most of my life I've seen them take a bashing at the sale barn, along with Herfords. Now they sell with everything else, based on quality and not breed/colour.

 

[CreekAngus]

The Angus fad has been going strong for 40+ years, and I see no reason why it won't continue to do so.

Seems strange to me that depending on where you are this may or may not be true. I saw a 6 or 7 year blip for Black Angus, it's over here now. Most of my life I've seen them take a bashing at the sale barn, along with Herfords. Now they sell with everything else, based on quality and not breed/colour.

What kind of cattle are run up in BC?

 

[Midtenn]

With the changes of indexes or non-indexes (depends on who masters the definition) AAA is admitting that imbalanced cattle are a problem breed-wide from carcass chasing. In other words, the Angus fad of late and wide was a search for the most terminal type. Bulls lost the proper structure and masculine look, cows became fat feedlot steer looking things with an udder glued on, ... Some folks chase names, some folks chase a particular EPD, but overall the AAA has let the breed ignore the value of a strong maternal base of cows that can work like commercial cows and last as long as those commercial producers want them to last under commercial conditions. We are drowning in advertising of understocked and over fed animals that are supposed to handle whatever. They will not. Feet and legs have been forgotten, disposition has been forgotten, the spotlights blind our eyes and folks buy right on without seeing. Three big ones that have hurt commercial producers interest: MM, MW & $B.

I honestly think, despite not agreeing with some of what you say...you've been very influential in my learning process on data. I'd tend to agree with you now, more than ever.

X2