Angus EPD’s

[gizmom]

http://www.angus.org/pub/Membership-Update-02272019.PDF

op:

Gizmom

 

[jscunn]

Along the bullet points. Hate the first idea about moving $B,
lbs pay the bills QG And YG are the cream, if $B is a terminal index (which it is) then make it right. If they would get the politics out of it then could get into the "express" lane to the correct formula.

The move from $W to $Maternal is a tough one, from a standpoint of cattle that your customers (most of whom wean all calves on the trailer) $W was pretty close to spot on, $Maternal might get bogged down in making them too non productive. High $W bulls were pretty good bulls without the terminal endpoint. High $W bulls (mostly) calving ease, good growth, lower milk, lower mature wt and ht.. Sounds like the perfect calf to send to town, if you decided to keep a few heifers they werent gonna kill you on the upkeep side.

Absolutely agree with eliminating $YG and $QG. nobody paid attention to them much.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

No utter, or foot epd?

 

[CreekAngus]

No utter, or foot epd?

I took a survey for the AAA back in July and both of those I emphasized, feet and udders are what cause cows to get culled. I found this letter and changes to the current values a lot to do with nothing. I was hoping they would actually reset the epds to a new baseline for example if the current ww average is 50, take it to zero.

 

[Ebenezer]

lessen the current impact of carcass weight and place a greater emphasis on
marbling and yield.

Is this due to too much fat on current kills or a counter to Wagyu and Akaushi potential market increase?

And I guess $M is a counter to stability or the Herdbuilder type EPDs or indexes in other breeds? I'm not sure what a balanced index will do as folks can sort via Sire Search and figure what they want. And I know that a room full of folks in MO can tell me what a balanced cow is while she eating fescue in SC and trying to grow old as a productive cow. I do wish they would set up a stability rating to supplement or replace pathfinder.

If they really want to fix EPDs, get a correct relation to all Angus so that old sires and registered animals on the edges get true numbers rather than 0 or minus due to the pivot year smoke screen. Funny that as some said the feet, udders and even the HP and DOC are not a focus. I guess if your focus is getting to terminal ASAP then the cattle do not have to last too long or function very well.

 

[NEFarmwife]

This will be interesting. None of us ever really know the weight of each value when considering an EPD. But I always found that marbling was our main target and something I felt our herd needed improvement on. I am glad to see it emphasized even more and I think will be more in line with where things are shifting. Grading is becoming so important as standards change. Because at the end of the day, they're all steaks.

That is where we shifted our focus last year. Remember, our operation we finish out ourselves. But I also feel it is important for those who sell at weaning, to keep the end producer in mind because good quality calves will help you achieve a better market for your herd.

I'd love to see more indexes for the maternal side.

 

[Son of Butch]

Maternal Net $ Lifetime index could be useful.
But the devil would be in the details as to weighting and calculating it.

 

[Ebenezer]

Soon after the development of the stayability EPD, the American Simmental
Association reported negative genetic correlations between stayability and both milk (-0.15) and
marbling (-0.19) EPDs (Shafer, 2007).

This interpretation suggests that single-trait selection for marbling may lead to elevations in maternal milk yield.

Tables at the end of the study are quicker discovery than the reading.

http://www.daltonsonthesycamore.com/documents/pdf/2014/SelectionForMarbling.pdf

The old adage, "You change 'em without changing 'em" applies. The question: if selection for traits does affect type, will the AAA faithful accept dairy type cattle phenotype if that is where high marbling leads the breed? Such as typical look of modern average GAR bull and other breeds known for high marbling which includes dairy breeds? Not arguing, just thinking about it. It might be a blessing to get beyond the overly fat and the sway backed types. A new fad, so to speak.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Soon after the development of the stayability EPD, the American Simmental
Association reported negative genetic correlations between stayability and both milk (-0.15) and
marbling (-0.19) EPDs (Shafer, 2007).

This interpretation suggests that single-trait selection for marbling may lead to elevations in maternal milk yield.

Tables at the end of the study are quicker discovery than the reading.

http://www.daltonsonthesycamore.com/documents/pdf/2014/SelectionForMarbling.pdf

The old adage, "You change 'em without changing 'em" applies. The question: if selection for traits does affect type, will the AAA faithful accept dairy type cattle phenotype if that is where high marbling leads the breed? Such as typical look of modern average GAR bull and other breeds known for high marbling which includes dairy breeds? Not arguing, just thinking about it. It might be a blessing to get beyond the overly fat and the sway backed types. A new fad, so to speak.

Are you saying (just so I am understanding) that marbling may actually hurt the breed? I.E. Would want to stay away from this in a replacement herd?

 

[Ebenezer]

Soon after the development of the stayability EPD, the American Simmental
Association reported negative genetic correlations between stayability and both milk (-0.15) and
marbling (-0.19) EPDs (Shafer, 2007).

This interpretation suggests that single-trait selection for marbling may lead to elevations in maternal milk yield.

Tables at the end of the study are quicker discovery than the reading.

http://www.daltonsonthesycamore.com/documents/pdf/2014/SelectionForMarbling.pdf

The old adage, "You change 'em without changing 'em" applies. The question: if selection for traits does affect type, will the AAA faithful accept dairy type cattle phenotype if that is where high marbling leads the breed? Such as typical look of modern average GAR bull and other breeds known for high marbling which includes dairy breeds? Not arguing, just thinking about it. It might be a blessing to get beyond the overly fat and the sway backed types. A new fad, so to speak.

Are you saying (just so I am understanding) that marbling may actually hurt the breed? I.E. Would want to stay away from this in a replacement herd?

Hurt? No as I have no proof of that. Change? Definitely. How? We'll know in 10 years. There are always outliers in the breed generations to buffer change and some who will not jump on the bandwagon. So there is always a chance of recovery due to holdover but with some herds there would be major impact. The breed history is full of ups and downs: older fats, belt buckle, discarded growth/carcass lines, frame chase, milk chase, carcass chase, name chase, ...Sure is an unstable deal.

 

[kilroy60]

Could be a shaky time for buying some quality cattle based on current EPD's that will flop come June. Not sure if I would want to go out and purchase a 200 plus dollar beef animal knowing that the dollar beef value will be cut.

 

[W.B.]

I have never used the $ indexes.looks like I never will need to use them. I have my selection parameters in place with epds I just don't like the idea of change for changes sake. With the current situation with $B I think too few actual hanging carcass data is ever collected to give it much credibility.
Looks like the maternal index is going to include feet epds. Again I don't think enough data will ever get turned in to make it a real tool.
My cattle are what they are I guess the numbers are for an ego boost?

 

[JMER1533]

From a newcomers perspective it looks like they're acknowledging importance on multiple trait selection by adding the 'balanced' value and helping the cow/calf operations by adding focus on the maternal traits.
Someone mentioned above but if I was involved with seed stock and trying to find the next popular genetics then I may not buy too many high dollar bulls until later this summer once more details come out.

Also do y'all feel this is a step towards efficiency rather than size?

 

[Ebenezer]

A Steak in Genomics
Bob Hough Comments on Changes at Breed Associations

Posted: 01 Mar 2019 03:23 PM PST

Bob Hough recently posted the following comment on Facebook (posted with his permission):
Early in my career at a breed association, the much beloved American Angus breed executive told me that the secret to success running a breed association was to have a top junior program, keep the books straight, and make sure the numbers (EPDs) don't change. This philosophy meant Angus valued stability in the their genetic predictions over keeping them up-to-date with the latest science. The Angus Association also marketed extremely effectively the infallibility of their EPDs because of the size of their database. I will start with the later. Yes, a database needs certain critical mass to make sure the animals are tied, but that can be achieved in a modest size database. After that, data quality far and away outweighs data quantity in assuring the most precise and reliable EPDs possible. On the former point, Angus breeders are simply not use to change. This is not the case in most breed associations whose genetic analysis are in a continuous state of improvement. If you are always improving your genetic analysis, the changes in the predictions are rarely noticeable by your average producer. That brings us to recent times where many Angus Association members will not accept change because they already believe their genetic predictions are beyond reproach because of the size of the database. However, their analysis had simply fallen behind, so the Association correctly changed their philosophy to keep their model up-to-date as well as improve the quality of their database through programs like Maternal Plus. These desperately needed changes have been difficult for the membership to accept because they have been marketed to them for decades the infallibility of their database and genetic predictions that are based on it. The one area the Association has traditionally led industry is in the development of indexes, but inexplicitly the index that became paramount in most producers selection programs was the terminal $B, which has moved the breed away from the maternal excellence that was its hallmark. If you need proof of this, one only needs to look at the Superior data Kansas State has analyzed where black Angus heifer calves and bred heifers sell at a considerable to discount to Red Angus. To solve this problem, the Association desperately needs to offer an additional index to their existing indexes that covers the whole production cycle, which is more commonly known as an all purpose index. That way if breeders use single trait selection, they have the option of using an index that is much better rounded towards the profitability of the entire beef industry. Currently the Angus membership is in an uproar in some segments about some proposed changes, which includes an all purpose type index. They really need to step back and look at their situation in totality. I think if they do, they will be excited about the proposed changes rather than perplexed and upset about them. I will leave you this. Years ago when Dr. John Pollak was asked about an improvement in the genetic predictions for a breed they were working with meant the old predictions were wrong. His answer was profound, "The old genetic predictions were right, but just not as right as they ever will be."

Bob's comment is spot on. As I have said in the past, true animal breeders need to be open to change. As I said at the NCBA Cattlemen's College in New Orleans, Angus breeders and their customers should welcome with open arms a new maternally-focus, all-purpose index. Take the Hereford CHB$ and BMI$ indexes as examples (https://issuu.com/buyhereford/docs/january2018hw/8). The CHB$ index is a terminal index like the Angus $B index. It has strong emphasis on Carcass Weight, Ribeye Area, Dry Matter Intake (i.e. feed efficiency), and other performance and carcass traits. However, the all-purpose index, BMI$, puts most of its emphasis on fertility and cow-calf traits (with some emphasis on performance in the feedlot and on the rail).

The $W index is outdated. In takes into account Birth Weight, Weaning Weight, Mature Weight, and Milk. Birth Weight is not even an economically relevant trait! Calving Ease is. Further, important traits like Heifer Pregnancy aren't even included. For a breed that gained it's market share based on a terminal program, Certified Angus Beef, an all-purpose index that meets the needs of all parts of the beef industry should be welcomed and embraced.

I highlighted a few statements. AAA has become the elephant from the old ad where they used to be the cow. This is a move of correction and hopefully one of redemption. We'll see if the new numbers breed better cattle.

Also do y'all feel this is a step towards efficiency rather than size?

A move to lesser terminal focus and a balancing tool to help some select for maternal.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I also prefer red angus bred heifers over black for a cow/calf operation.

 

[JMER1533]

Other than color, has the red angus association focused more on maternal and efficiency on grass vs more focus on terminal and carcass for black angus? I know this is a gross generalization but in general is this accurate?

 

[76 Bar]

Excellent question. Historically yes. Hopefully RAAA stays the course.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I also prefer red angus bred heifers over black for a cow/calf operation.

At a sale last night, I was speaking with a gentleman who said the reason he moved to reds was because of the maternal aspect. Said calving them is a breeve in comparison to black. I found that interesting.

We have a red fall herd but I love my blacks!

 

[gizmom]

NEFarmwife

I think the carcass chase has had a negative impact on Black Angus. To clarify the breeders that were chasing single traitshave had a negative impact. We have no issues calving but we have stayed the course as far as balance over all traits, I love my Black Angus. Anytime a single trail is chased it is at the expense of another. As Doc Harris used to say Balance Balance Balance!

Gizmom

 

[W.B.]

I also prefer red angus bred heifers over black for a cow/calf operation.

At a sale last night, I was speaking with a gentleman who said the reason he moved to reds was because of the maternal aspect. Said calving them is a breeve in comparison to black. I found that interesting.

We have a red fall herd but I love my blacks!

I assume he was referencing disposition at calving and working around them after they calved. The difference in the Angus breed in the best and the worst is vast. The good ones are there and well the bad ones are bad enough to find a different breed. In the end you get what you select for. Putting up with crazy cows is silly and in the end will likely get someone seriously hurt or worse. Other breeds have them as well but Angus take the blame for anything that is black hided. I grew up around Herefords and yes even Herefords have man eaters in the gene pool. It simply has to be culled from the population if you are barn calving cows in cold weather.