Angus $EN

[JWBrahman]

Don't know you, don't know Rowdy, and do no fight with women on the internet. Best wishes, "Chuckie".

 

[bse]

JWBrahman I think as a seedstock producer if you cant get more than 25% of your animals that should be registered your doing something wrong, as a whole that number could be right because a lot of people think that a registered sire and dam make a registered calf and your right that is deffinetly not true.
Around here I don't think the Angus train is off the tracks it may have slowed a bit but still rolling along.
just a comment or 2 about EPDs which is what this thread is more about. It is for sure an honor thing you can make those numbers do what you want when turned in but if your not legit it will eventually catch up with you. If your adding pounds and get these big growth numbers and sell the offspring and all they produce is dinks you've probably sold your last to that person and around here bad news travels fast.
Now for those cows bred to the low BW Angus bulls if there not able to give those away if you could gather me up about 12 ill come on down and get them lol. I think around here folks have gone low BW crazy but that's what the extension bunch pushes if your trying to fix something or average some numbers its ok but to use all these low BW bulls on a group of mature cows I don't understand that myself.
You Gotta is out there a lot in my opinion You Gotta raise what you like.

 

[Chuckie]

JW, There must be a lot of meat ruining in the Wal Mart store there!

 

[J&D Cattle]

JW, There must be a lot of meat ruining in the Wal Mart store there!

It's all perception. Many people would think the same thing around here as they put a business like Whole Foods on another level and would think that their products are superior. Marketing and perception, whether or not there is any truth to it, is another question.

 

[animalsci2011]

I think you need to do a bit more research, I think you'll find that in general Angus are routinely outcrossed with very low inbreeding coefficients. As Angus have been driven by the numbers crowd it is apparent to anyone looking to build numbers that the more you out cross the more that the numbers go in the "right" direction.

Generally Robert this is true but if you look at most not all angus bulls being used today they will go back to about 4 angus bulls. The thing that happens is the farther from the original foundation stock you get the less imbreeding you will have. If you breed a cow to her grandfather it will give you nearly the same inbreeding in the offspring as breeding two half sibs to each other. Since the distance from the common ancestor is nearly identical and there is only one chain of connection through the common ancestor. But you will be hardpressed to find any angus that is not inbred it is likely based on EPD's that you wouldn't breed it anyways.

 

[jscunn]

I wish there was a popcorn eating icon, waiting on Robert to see this one..

School is soon to be in session.

 

[robert]

All angus are inbred anyways so that probably doesn't make much difference either. From you neighborhood animal scientist here. Have a wonderful day.

I think you need to do a bit more research, I think you'll find that in general Angus are routinely outcrossed with very low inbreeding coefficients. As Angus have been driven by the numbers crowd it is apparent to anyone looking to build numbers that the more you out cross the more that the numbers go in the "right" direction.

Generally Robert this is true but if you look at most not all angus bulls being used today they will go back to about 4 angus bulls. The thing that happens is the farther from the original foundation stock you get the less imbreeding you will have. If you breed a cow to her grandfather it will give you nearly the same inbreeding in the offspring as breeding two half sibs to each other. Since the distance from the common ancestor is nearly identical and there is only one chain of connection through the common ancestor. But you will be hardpressed to find any angus that is not inbred it is likely based on EPD's that you wouldn't breed it anyways.

I'd be interested to see your list of 4. Most Angus will have an inbreeding coefficient (ibc) of less than 5%, that is not even in the realm of inbreeding. The fact that people refer to certain 'lines' of Angus in reference to the sire is also erroneous and no indication of line or inbreeding, for example you could say 'linebred to Traveler 23-4' but if that is through the use of 4 different sons or grandsons in the 3rd or 4th generation or more back then the level of influence of 23-4 is negligible. In fact, since 2008 when the whole AM/NH defects finally saw the light of truth shined on them the awareness of linebreeding has increased and I believe most Angus breeders are actively outcrossing even more that they were before, pedigree actually has value again but may also have contributed to the jump in EPD values over the past 5 years. If you want to cite a bovine population that is becoming more line/inbred take a look at the Holsteins!

 

[Chuckie]

J&D, I understand that Whole Foods is a nice Supermarket, and I understand the concept of the store. Whole Food Store's like to do business with local farmers, and if you are in an area where Beefmasters are raised, then that is what they will buy. To have beef shipped in is more expensive on the customers.
When I pass through Nashville, which is 170 miles away, I might grab a few Angus steaks along the way to take to my brother's house. After reading JW's post, it lead me to believe that they only sold Beefmasters meat. Angus appears to be the #1 beef that Whole Foods purchases.
I just didn't see where Whole Foods fit under Angus $EN.

JW Brahman, I started a thread about Angus $EN, I am not sure where Brahman cattle apply.
Where I live, the temps reach 100* easily, and the high 90's is average from July to September, and the humidity runs a few points below it. The months before July, the temps reach high 80's to low 90's. We grow cotton here as well.
The remark you made about Angus having a hard time of maintaining good condition on good pasture in the heat is ridiculous. Angus are 99% of what is in the pastures here, and there is no problem unless someone is not taking care of the cattle. I looked up people in your state with Angus, and sale books, where the cattle looked really nice out in the pastures. My cattle lay in the shade all day, and graze occasionally. Have you ever thought about Angus don't have to graze all day in the sun to maintain their weight, like the Brahman do. They are better at converting grass than the Brahman. My cattle are fat and I do not supplement with feed.
At the same time, Angus cattle stay warm in the winter time where Brahman cattle stand with their legs as close, shivering and I have to feed them a lot of feed to keep them warm. At one time, everyone had Brahman cattle in their pastures in the early 70's, before they realized they could not handle the cold.

 

[animalsci2011]

I think you need to do a bit more research, I think you'll find that in general Angus are routinely outcrossed with very low inbreeding coefficients. As Angus have been driven by the numbers crowd it is apparent to anyone looking to build numbers that the more you out cross the more that the numbers go in the "right" direction.

Generally Robert this is true but if you look at most not all angus bulls being used today they will go back to about 4 angus bulls. The thing that happens is the farther from the original foundation stock you get the less imbreeding you will have. If you breed a cow to her grandfather it will give you nearly the same inbreeding in the offspring as breeding two half sibs to each other. Since the distance from the common ancestor is nearly identical and there is only one chain of connection through the common ancestor. But you will be hardpressed to find any angus that is not inbred it is likely based on EPD's that you wouldn't breed it anyways.

I'd be interested to see your list of 4. Most Angus will have an inbreeding coefficient (ibc) of less than 5%, that is not even in the realm of inbreeding. The fact that people refer to certain 'lines' of Angus in reference to the sire is also erroneous and no indication of line or inbreeding, for example you could say 'linebred to Traveler 23-4' but if that is through the use of 4 different sons or grandsons in the 3rd or 4th generation or more back then the level of influence of 23-4 is negligible. In fact, since 2008 when the whole AM/NH defects finally saw the light of truth shined on them the awareness of linebreeding has increased and I believe most Angus breeders are actively outcrossing even more that they were before, pedigree actually has value again but may also have contributed to the jump in EPD values over the past 5 years. If you want to cite a bovine population that is becoming more line/inbred take a look at the Holsteins!

Didn't say it was a lot of inbreeding most do range between 1-5% but there is a little. Thats just how it is. You did pick out one of the bulls. Traveler 23-4, another would be Rito N Bar, Emulation 31, and probably Tehama Bando 155. It really just depend on how far back you want to go to find one. They are getting less inbred with every breeding simply because the population size is growing so large. So yes there is some inbreeding its likely unavoidable but it will not be a concern in general espcially if the common ancestor is back two or three generations. But inbreeding in general isn't bad either. It can have very positive outcomes in the offspring if just the right amount is done. Its just like candy too much is bad but a little is so so sweet. lol

 

[robert]

All angus are inbred anyways so that probably doesn't make much difference either. From you neighborhood animal scientist here. Have a wonderful day.

not to :deadhorse: too much but here is your quote, if you want to back away from that sweeping generalization that's fine by me. Less than 5% IBC is not even in the realm of line breeding let alone 'inbred'.

 

[animalsci2011]

All angus are inbred anyways so that probably doesn't make much difference either. From you neighborhood animal scientist here. Have a wonderful day.

not to :deadhorse: too much but here is your quote, if you want to back away from that sweeping generalization that's fine by me. Less than 5% IBC is not even in the realm of line breeding let alone 'inbred'.

Actually as long as there is at least one common ancestor in the lineage then yes the animal is officially inbred. No matter how small the actual inbreeding is.

 

[Jake]

All angus are inbred anyways so that probably doesn't make much difference either. From you neighborhood animal scientist here. Have a wonderful day.

not to :deadhorse: too much but here is your quote, if you want to back away from that sweeping generalization that's fine by me. Less than 5% IBC is not even in the realm of line breeding let alone 'inbred'.

Actually as long as there is at least one common ancestor in the lineage then yes the animal is officially inbred. No matter how small the actual inbreeding is.

Well that makes every animal in every breed inbred. Go back far enough there are going to be common ancestors. If common ancestor is more than about 4 back on the pedigree it doesn't matter at all as the genetic similarity is incredibly small.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

some folks will go to great lengths to be right.....