tom4018":2o3oqkm2 said:
I'm having a hard time understanding what taxes aren't being paid by religious groups. Since most of the money to a church comes from individuals donations. That money is already taxed.
Please clue me in.
Amish Farms
- Thread starter CopeMan
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Help Support CattleToday:
I'm having a hard time understanding what taxes aren't being paid by religious groups. Since most of the money to a church comes from individuals donations. That money is already taxed.
Please clue me in.
bigbull338
Well-known member
i think they are talking about proterty taxes. since the amish meet at their farms. so how or another they claim they are tax exempt. by having church in their homes. but i could be way rong. scott
MikeC":1mrqohtx said:
In Kentucky they avoid property and sales tax on anything done by the church. Have seen and heard of jobs that Amish and Mennonites have done and payment was made out to the church so they could avoid paying income tax on it. From what I hear some of them run everything thru the church and then the church gives money back to them. I know some that run a construction company that seem ok, but there seems to be different groups of them and some seem to be more strict on thier members.
Crowderfarms
Well-known member
I did not want to put my redbone back in this hunt but here goes.These people ie. Amish and Menonites DO NOT pay any Federal Income taxes. They pay and Collect sales tax.They do not exist on donations.They have cattle, grow crops, make saddles,sell meat and produce.Other things. They are a "religous enterprise"As I undersatnd it, until recently they did not even have any obligation to pay property taxes.And they will outbid you at the sale barn. Funny they dont herd their cattle home... They pay one of us Aliens to haul em back to the farm.MikeC":3c9rra6i said:
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
I beg to differ with your opinon of the Mexican people, they would love to pay taxes for a better lifestyle,they live under one of the most corrupt goverments with a serf system.
Not quite comparing apples to apples on the Mexicans and Amish.
Best not forget either son those same Mexicans were standing beside us in 1836, willing to fight for freedom. Look at the list that died inside the Alamo, lest not we forget Juan Seguin either.
Not quite comparing apples to apples on the Mexicans and Amish.
Best not forget either son those same Mexicans were standing beside us in 1836, willing to fight for freedom. Look at the list that died inside the Alamo, lest not we forget Juan Seguin either.
Longtails4Me
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The Amish in Penn. have always been good customers, to sell
black steers to in the fall. They will buy even the real short ones, if they are black. They have done this, long before there was such a thing as CAB. Some have been known to pay for them in hundred dollar bills. ;-)
black steers to in the fall. They will buy even the real short ones, if they are black. They have done this, long before there was such a thing as CAB. Some have been known to pay for them in hundred dollar bills. ;-)
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
I agree with the apples to apples concept,but for every mexican that was fighting with us at the Alamo there were 500 fighting against us.Caustic Burno":2jxx8exb said:
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Mahoney Pursley Ranch":271q3g79 said:
I guess us 6th generation Texans view the Mexican people in a different light as they are very much a part of this states heritage. Brush up on your Texas history it wasn't just the Alamo I was speaking metaphorically.
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
Whoa Hoss :shock: I hve nothing against the Mexican people of the great state of Texas. I am sure the heritage of the Mexican people have contributed greatly to Texas. A prime example is Jose Antonio Navarro whose name,because of the good he did for Texas graces the county in which I live. Just to set the record straight we are the 5th generation to live on the property we have. My wife was born in San Antonio and the community in which we live was settled and named for her ancestors in the 1860's. :cboy:Caustic Burno":nsiw5m73 said:
certherfbeef
Well-known member
Cope, that pic is pretty but definately not the norm.
I read the first few posts on this thread and that was it. Don't know if anyone mentioned the Mennonites or not. Not too much better. Considered to be lower on the todem pole than the amish, according to the church.
Wayne county, OH has some pretty places too. Well kept. But they are the very well off group. One old chap sold his place. The city of Wooster pestered him for at least 10 years that I know of. Finally sold. They made him a rich man. Moved further east, bought more ground and probably lives high on the hog.
I read the first few posts on this thread and that was it. Don't know if anyone mentioned the Mennonites or not. Not too much better. Considered to be lower on the todem pole than the amish, according to the church.
Wayne county, OH has some pretty places too. Well kept. But they are the very well off group. One old chap sold his place. The city of Wooster pestered him for at least 10 years that I know of. Finally sold. They made him a rich man. Moved further east, bought more ground and probably lives high on the hog.
madbeancounter1
Well-known member
First off let me apologize for the length of this response. I may even split it and put it into three separate ones.
There seems to be a lot of questions and assumptions regarding the Amish and Mennonite communities. I hear what a lot of you are saying through your posts and I have to say that all of you are partially right but all of you are partially missing the boat.
I grew up in the heart of Amish Country in Northern Indiana; in fact, my Mother's family for the most part is Amish and Old Order Mennonite. I was raised in the Old Mennonite Church and was a member of that denomination until we relocated to NW Arkansas in 1999.
The high schools and colleges I attended were all Mennonite schools. I had to take Church and Anabaptist History and Thought in both arenas. So I know a good bit about what I am going write.
Don't worry. Nothing anyone has posted has gotten my dander up or slighted me in any way as I have my own issues with the Mennonites but let's be objective about this.
First, let me make a general response to a lot of what I read. As with any group of people you are going to have good and bad. In another post I wrote that my wife is of Filipino origin. People that don't know her often mistake her for being Hispanic. When we were first married and moved from South Central Kansas back to Northern Indiana at a family dinner one time my grandmother on my dad's side made a comment about the Hispanics that had moved into the area and how they all congregated in the front yards and porches and had so many cars parked in the yards, etc… basically she called them "dirty Mexicans." Now just across the river less than a quarter of a mile away from where the majority of the Hispanics had settled in town was an area where some lower income families… pretty much all white folks lived. There were washing machines and junked out cars in the front yards and all manner of trash all over the place. There were other areas like this in other parts of the city and in surrounding towns. My grandmother wanted to know what we thought of all the "dirty Mexicans" that were moving in and taking over and looked pointedly at my wife as if trying for a reaction. She got one. My wife responded, "I haven't seen a lot of dirty Mexicans but sure do see a whole lot of "white trash"!"
By the same token there are people in every culture that care about how things look and those that don't. (Unfortunately, I live in a house that the appraisers tell me is worth between 150 and 180k. It would be worth another 20k if the neighbor on the other side of me would fix up his place. Personally, I'd rather see it razed….)
Where I grew up most of the Amish are well respected and take a lot of pride in their farmsteads. But there are some that don't cut the grass, don't take the best care of their stock and let the beer cans pile up in the front lawn.
But lets be realistic, you all probably have someone or maybe a couple of some ones in your neighborhood that think yard art is a rusted out pickup body up on blocks in the front yard or maybe they left a dead carcass lay in the pasture and the breeze was in just the right direction that you were able to enjoy the lovely bouquet of decomposing flesh.
Speaking of livestock most of the Amish in Northern Indiana have some of everything. Almost all dairy and mostly Holstein, Guernsey, or Brown Swiss, many will keep chickens and some keep hogs. Several have sheep or goats. There aren't really any Amish up there that keep any of the beef breeds. The dairymen mostly have modern facilities in which they milk. I don't know about other areas of the country but there the general rule of thumb is that the Amish have power, electricity & plumbing in their dairy barns and businesses. Most businesses that are run off the farm have a telephone. Granted the telephone is at the end of the lane if they don't have a separate building that they do business out of. The premise is that a phone in the home interferes with family life.
Speaking of farm size in Northern Indiana most of the farms were quite large at one time but as sons married and had families the farms were split up and each son got a piece of it or his dad bought him a farm or a piece of ground to build a farm on. While a lot of you have Amish moving into your areas there are more reasons than that they are doing so to stop inbreeding even though that is true. Just as large is the reason that there just isn't enough open ground to go around anymore and they are being forced to move into new areas in order to survive with their way of life. And at the same time their way of life has to change with the climate and crop base in each new location. They have to adapt to the livestock market and so maybe in some of your locations they have started changing over from dairy to beef.
Most homes are plain… no carpet on the floors, just braided rag rugs, most houses don't have curtains to speak of usually just covering the lower half of the window. Contrary to popular opinion most homes have running water and hot water heaters, refrigerators and freezers and indoor toilets. They run all of it off of propane or natural gas. I've been in some homes that were really decked out: Solid oak cabinetry, La-Z-Boy furniture and evening a whirlpool hot tub in the master bedroom.
Speaking of large families: The comment about large families among the Amish is often joke material among Mennonites and related groups. (Check out the Coffee Shop) But in all seriousness when Amish holdings were larger more hands were needed work the land thus the larger families. I would imagine if many of you were to examine your backline you would find the same thing.
The basis for Amish life and culture the motto that many Christians repeat over and over and is found in scripture. That is that we in the world but not of it. The Amish and I suppose the Anabaptists as a whole summed it up in the phrase "Stille im lande"; translated "The quiet in the land."
I am going to split this here and address the rest in another reponse.
There seems to be a lot of questions and assumptions regarding the Amish and Mennonite communities. I hear what a lot of you are saying through your posts and I have to say that all of you are partially right but all of you are partially missing the boat.
I grew up in the heart of Amish Country in Northern Indiana; in fact, my Mother's family for the most part is Amish and Old Order Mennonite. I was raised in the Old Mennonite Church and was a member of that denomination until we relocated to NW Arkansas in 1999.
The high schools and colleges I attended were all Mennonite schools. I had to take Church and Anabaptist History and Thought in both arenas. So I know a good bit about what I am going write.
Don't worry. Nothing anyone has posted has gotten my dander up or slighted me in any way as I have my own issues with the Mennonites but let's be objective about this.
First, let me make a general response to a lot of what I read. As with any group of people you are going to have good and bad. In another post I wrote that my wife is of Filipino origin. People that don't know her often mistake her for being Hispanic. When we were first married and moved from South Central Kansas back to Northern Indiana at a family dinner one time my grandmother on my dad's side made a comment about the Hispanics that had moved into the area and how they all congregated in the front yards and porches and had so many cars parked in the yards, etc… basically she called them "dirty Mexicans." Now just across the river less than a quarter of a mile away from where the majority of the Hispanics had settled in town was an area where some lower income families… pretty much all white folks lived. There were washing machines and junked out cars in the front yards and all manner of trash all over the place. There were other areas like this in other parts of the city and in surrounding towns. My grandmother wanted to know what we thought of all the "dirty Mexicans" that were moving in and taking over and looked pointedly at my wife as if trying for a reaction. She got one. My wife responded, "I haven't seen a lot of dirty Mexicans but sure do see a whole lot of "white trash"!"
By the same token there are people in every culture that care about how things look and those that don't. (Unfortunately, I live in a house that the appraisers tell me is worth between 150 and 180k. It would be worth another 20k if the neighbor on the other side of me would fix up his place. Personally, I'd rather see it razed….)
Where I grew up most of the Amish are well respected and take a lot of pride in their farmsteads. But there are some that don't cut the grass, don't take the best care of their stock and let the beer cans pile up in the front lawn.
But lets be realistic, you all probably have someone or maybe a couple of some ones in your neighborhood that think yard art is a rusted out pickup body up on blocks in the front yard or maybe they left a dead carcass lay in the pasture and the breeze was in just the right direction that you were able to enjoy the lovely bouquet of decomposing flesh.
Speaking of livestock most of the Amish in Northern Indiana have some of everything. Almost all dairy and mostly Holstein, Guernsey, or Brown Swiss, many will keep chickens and some keep hogs. Several have sheep or goats. There aren't really any Amish up there that keep any of the beef breeds. The dairymen mostly have modern facilities in which they milk. I don't know about other areas of the country but there the general rule of thumb is that the Amish have power, electricity & plumbing in their dairy barns and businesses. Most businesses that are run off the farm have a telephone. Granted the telephone is at the end of the lane if they don't have a separate building that they do business out of. The premise is that a phone in the home interferes with family life.
Speaking of farm size in Northern Indiana most of the farms were quite large at one time but as sons married and had families the farms were split up and each son got a piece of it or his dad bought him a farm or a piece of ground to build a farm on. While a lot of you have Amish moving into your areas there are more reasons than that they are doing so to stop inbreeding even though that is true. Just as large is the reason that there just isn't enough open ground to go around anymore and they are being forced to move into new areas in order to survive with their way of life. And at the same time their way of life has to change with the climate and crop base in each new location. They have to adapt to the livestock market and so maybe in some of your locations they have started changing over from dairy to beef.
Most homes are plain… no carpet on the floors, just braided rag rugs, most houses don't have curtains to speak of usually just covering the lower half of the window. Contrary to popular opinion most homes have running water and hot water heaters, refrigerators and freezers and indoor toilets. They run all of it off of propane or natural gas. I've been in some homes that were really decked out: Solid oak cabinetry, La-Z-Boy furniture and evening a whirlpool hot tub in the master bedroom.
Speaking of large families: The comment about large families among the Amish is often joke material among Mennonites and related groups. (Check out the Coffee Shop) But in all seriousness when Amish holdings were larger more hands were needed work the land thus the larger families. I would imagine if many of you were to examine your backline you would find the same thing.
The basis for Amish life and culture the motto that many Christians repeat over and over and is found in scripture. That is that we in the world but not of it. The Amish and I suppose the Anabaptists as a whole summed it up in the phrase "Stille im lande"; translated "The quiet in the land."
I am going to split this here and address the rest in another reponse.
madbeancounter1
Well-known member
Part 2
To address some specifics:
Income Tax:
As an accountant who has worked on a few returns for Amish people over the years I can tell you that they file the same return that you do and pay income taxes just as you do. The only difference is that they do not have Social Security and Medicare withheld from their wages which is no big deal… They don't collect either. The Amish Church is their social security. If they have huge needs everyone in the Church pitches in. Are you picturing an Amish barn raising yet?
Let me give you a personal illustration. Keep in mind that I am personally two generations removed from being Amish. In 1989, I was involved in an industrial accident in which I had compression fractures in two places along my spine. My home needed a new roof. Some of the Amish guys that I worked with came up and stripped the shingles off my house on Friday evening and Saturday morning they came back and put a new roof on. I paid about $800 for the shingles… a skid of seconds that I got from another Amish relative and they put them up for the cost of a noon meal.
Back to the subject: Any one of you can elect not to have income tax withheld from your wages. You just have to either make estimated payments or pay the penalty for not having enough paid in during the year.
Property Tax:
In Northern Indiana the Amish pay property tax, they also pay a road tax when they license their buggies each year. Someone alluded to the fact that the reason they meet in each others homes or barns as the case may be has nothing to do with property tax although the benefit is inferred.
The reason for meeting in each others homes more tradition than anything else. It is rooted in scripture and follows the pattern of the early church. I will bet that even some of you church-goers out there attend churches that have adopted the cell group models (home fellowship groups) or maybe you attend a house church. What the Amish are doing is exactly that. There is significance, too. Are you aware that when the Bible talks about "sharing salt" it isn't just sharing a meal? As a Christian if I invite you to share a meal in my home… [share salt so to speak]… I am pledging to never harm you in any way. Some friends of mine actually exchanged salt as part of their wedding vows.
Sales Tax:
Before you get all bent out of shape about the sales tax find out whether they need to be collecting sales tax on what they are selling. In Indiana it used to be that no food items purchased from the farm market or grocery were taxable. In Arkansas all food is taxable unless it is purchased for resale. But Sales Tax Regs change all the time. For instance last year new regs went into effect in Arkansas that change a lot of things; if I install a new furnace for you in a new home it is not a taxable event. If I install a new furnace in an existing structure it is a taxable event. Pet grooming and boarding services are now taxable. Income from self storage buildings is now taxable. There are a lot more than these too.
Military Service:
Again, many of you out there have served in the Military. I have not but I married into a Military family. For sacrifice that you made to defend our way of life in time and effort as well as risk to personal safety, let me say a personal thank you that I am sure many readers will echo.
The religious tradition in which I was raised is part of what is called the "Historic Peace Churches". There are three. The Anabaptists, Quakers, Hutterites. During the WWI, II, the Korean and Vietnam Wars and still today there exists a phrase "conscientious objector (CO's)." Most of your Amish and Mennonites will fall into this group although there will always be some that disagree with church doctrine and join the service. Many of you that served got notices from your local draft boards. So did my Amish and Mennonite relatives, including my dad. At the draft board these Amish and Mennonite fellows showed up and had to face a barrage of questions that had to do with what they would do to protect their families if an intruder broke into their home and other types of questions that dealt with the use of deadly force. These Amish and Mennonite boys went armed with scripture that supported their position. For these groups much of the way they respond to the world around them has to do with the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. If you aren't familiar with your Bible you can find these passages in Matthew ch5 and following.
Anyway, there were men in our community that spent the war in federal prison in much worse conditions that even the most heinous criminals. A neighbor of ours told of being in a cell in the winter time with out a blanket and of guards regularly using his boots for a latrine. There are stories of CO's that were tossed in dungeons in WWI and starved to death. Most of the men that convinced the draft board that they were sincere in their beliefs had to do alternative service. Many of them were Smoke Jumpers or worked in other "demeaning" tasks. My dad would have been classified 4F and not had to do anything but instead he volunteered for 1W service which was considered one of those "demeaning tasks" He served as a bus driver and a farm manager on prison farm close to Johnstown, PA. My mother went along and was assigned a job as a secretary in a metal institution. They did a 3 year tour of service.
To address some specifics:
Income Tax:
As an accountant who has worked on a few returns for Amish people over the years I can tell you that they file the same return that you do and pay income taxes just as you do. The only difference is that they do not have Social Security and Medicare withheld from their wages which is no big deal… They don't collect either. The Amish Church is their social security. If they have huge needs everyone in the Church pitches in. Are you picturing an Amish barn raising yet?
Let me give you a personal illustration. Keep in mind that I am personally two generations removed from being Amish. In 1989, I was involved in an industrial accident in which I had compression fractures in two places along my spine. My home needed a new roof. Some of the Amish guys that I worked with came up and stripped the shingles off my house on Friday evening and Saturday morning they came back and put a new roof on. I paid about $800 for the shingles… a skid of seconds that I got from another Amish relative and they put them up for the cost of a noon meal.
Back to the subject: Any one of you can elect not to have income tax withheld from your wages. You just have to either make estimated payments or pay the penalty for not having enough paid in during the year.
Property Tax:
In Northern Indiana the Amish pay property tax, they also pay a road tax when they license their buggies each year. Someone alluded to the fact that the reason they meet in each others homes or barns as the case may be has nothing to do with property tax although the benefit is inferred.
The reason for meeting in each others homes more tradition than anything else. It is rooted in scripture and follows the pattern of the early church. I will bet that even some of you church-goers out there attend churches that have adopted the cell group models (home fellowship groups) or maybe you attend a house church. What the Amish are doing is exactly that. There is significance, too. Are you aware that when the Bible talks about "sharing salt" it isn't just sharing a meal? As a Christian if I invite you to share a meal in my home… [share salt so to speak]… I am pledging to never harm you in any way. Some friends of mine actually exchanged salt as part of their wedding vows.
Sales Tax:
Before you get all bent out of shape about the sales tax find out whether they need to be collecting sales tax on what they are selling. In Indiana it used to be that no food items purchased from the farm market or grocery were taxable. In Arkansas all food is taxable unless it is purchased for resale. But Sales Tax Regs change all the time. For instance last year new regs went into effect in Arkansas that change a lot of things; if I install a new furnace for you in a new home it is not a taxable event. If I install a new furnace in an existing structure it is a taxable event. Pet grooming and boarding services are now taxable. Income from self storage buildings is now taxable. There are a lot more than these too.
Military Service:
Again, many of you out there have served in the Military. I have not but I married into a Military family. For sacrifice that you made to defend our way of life in time and effort as well as risk to personal safety, let me say a personal thank you that I am sure many readers will echo.
The religious tradition in which I was raised is part of what is called the "Historic Peace Churches". There are three. The Anabaptists, Quakers, Hutterites. During the WWI, II, the Korean and Vietnam Wars and still today there exists a phrase "conscientious objector (CO's)." Most of your Amish and Mennonites will fall into this group although there will always be some that disagree with church doctrine and join the service. Many of you that served got notices from your local draft boards. So did my Amish and Mennonite relatives, including my dad. At the draft board these Amish and Mennonite fellows showed up and had to face a barrage of questions that had to do with what they would do to protect their families if an intruder broke into their home and other types of questions that dealt with the use of deadly force. These Amish and Mennonite boys went armed with scripture that supported their position. For these groups much of the way they respond to the world around them has to do with the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. If you aren't familiar with your Bible you can find these passages in Matthew ch5 and following.
Anyway, there were men in our community that spent the war in federal prison in much worse conditions that even the most heinous criminals. A neighbor of ours told of being in a cell in the winter time with out a blanket and of guards regularly using his boots for a latrine. There are stories of CO's that were tossed in dungeons in WWI and starved to death. Most of the men that convinced the draft board that they were sincere in their beliefs had to do alternative service. Many of them were Smoke Jumpers or worked in other "demeaning" tasks. My dad would have been classified 4F and not had to do anything but instead he volunteered for 1W service which was considered one of those "demeaning tasks" He served as a bus driver and a farm manager on prison farm close to Johnstown, PA. My mother went along and was assigned a job as a secretary in a metal institution. They did a 3 year tour of service.
madbeancounter1
Well-known member
Part 3
Amish and Mennonite Population:
Your joke about putting the Amish down in Mexico won't hunt. They have been there for a long time already making and peddling cheese. There is also a colony of them and Mennonites in Uruguay. You will find them all over the globe but most densely in the US, Canada and Switzerland
Amish and Mennonites: General History
Contrary to popular opinion the Amish broke off the Mennonites because they felt they were becoming too progressive. But to be fair there are as many different branches of the Amish and Mennonite Churches as there are colors and hues of the spectrum of light. Some of your posts alluded to cheats and dirty Amish. Let me tell you that in PA there are some that drive brown buggies that the rest of the Amish world shuns. They are really unpleasant to be around and they don't bathe regularly either. But most of the rest of them are good people. It is true that they will outbid you if they want something. Most of them are hardworking decent people who want to preserve their way of life. – more on that ….later
The Anabaptist movement started even before Menno Simons, a former Catholic Priest, had his falling out with the reformers over infant baptism and the use of deadly force although it was named for him as he did much to pull the early church together. If you have a copy of Foxes Book of Martys or Martyrs Mirror you can find stories of Christians being persecuted for their faith all the way back to the Roman Empire. Some of them are truly amazing. But among them you will find names like Georges Blauroch and Stephen Saddler who were leaders in the early Anabaptist church.
The birthplace of the movement was in the fertile Alsace-Lorraine area of Switzerland. After the Reformation and having been branded as heretics, the Anabaptists got on with life. They were known for their farming skills, peaceful ways and for staying to themselves. As different wars broke out they migrated. Many started coming to America in the 1700's, others went to Russia where they were wanted because they had developed a hardy winter wheat. But eventually war forced them out of Russia as well. Most of these Mennonites immigrated to Canada and then down into the Upper and Central Plains states.
In Northern Indiana we had all kinds of Amish and Mennonites. Remember the Amish split off the Mennonites even though they are more conservative in many ways than the Menno's. In our community there Old Order Amish, and Old Order Mennonites. Both drive horse and buggy. The OOA's clothing is all handmade with hooks and eyes and buttons – no zippers. The men also wear beards but no mustache… Why you ask? Because the mustache is military in bearing. The OOM's don't wear beards - I don't know why… never was important to me. The men wear store bought clothes but the ladies dress much the same way as the OOA ladies. Both farm with horses although the OOM's sometimes have tractors with steel wheels. The OOA's don't have electric in the home but the OOM's do. OOM's meet every week in a church building; women and children on one side of the aisle, men and boys on the other.
The rest of the groups I will mention all drive cars although some paint their bumpers black. Chrome is just too worldly. Beachy Amish, German Baptist, Dunkerd Brethren, Wisler Mennonites, Salem Mennonites, Conservative Mennonites, Old Mennonites, and General Conference Mennonites. My wife and I were married in a Mennonite-Brethren Church in Hesston, Kansas.
As with all church splits they happened over doctrine. Amman split because of his belief that the beard was supposed to be untrimmed and that members of other churches could not be saved. In my conversations with my family they no longer hold this view but if you ask them what they believe instead of telling you they will invite you to come live with them and see.
Most of the other splits occurred over whether to hold Sunday school, hold the services in English or German sing parts or unison. Run a search on the internet for "Mennonites in Elkhart County" or "Mennonites in Pennsylvania" and you find just how petty some of these splits were.
Usually anything that says "old order" means that that church follows the old way of doing things.
Up until 25 years ago the church I grew up in didn't allow instruments other than the piano and organ and then not for congregational singing. Fortunately, we had a minister of music who let the Jazz Band at the local college and he started a instrumental ensemble. But it was only in the past 6-8 years that they started singing anything but 4-part accapella music. Also about the same time frame the more progressive General Conference merged with the conservative Old Mennonites.
I have loads of humorous stories I heard during my days in schools from teachers and profs. Some of them show stupidity and arrogance and others are just funny. But think about this. I can tell you about "sowing wild oats" and the "bundling board" and why there are vehicles always parked in front of an Amish house that has teenagers living there.
The next time you sit down with favorite brewski you might want to say a word of thanks to the Mennonites who brought the art with them from the old country. See up until prohibition Mennonites owned some of the breweries. But taking the verse about not being a stumbling block seriously they sold the breweries and at least outwardly and in Church teaching began to postulate against the evil of alcohol. However, I have since learned that at least as of my generation take the verses about moderation and wine being good for stomach to heart as don't.
Oh, and you know how most Amish and Mennonite names are Germanic in origin? In Northern Indiana there are Amish with the last name of Jones. It seems there was this horse trader from Wyoming that came to Northern Indiana for a horse auction sometime in the early part the last century, met an Amish girl and was smitten with her. He went to ask her father if he could call on her and her father told him only if joined the Amish Church. Long story short the there are a bunch of Amish in Northern Indiana with an English last name.
Amish and Mennonite Population:
Your joke about putting the Amish down in Mexico won't hunt. They have been there for a long time already making and peddling cheese. There is also a colony of them and Mennonites in Uruguay. You will find them all over the globe but most densely in the US, Canada and Switzerland
Amish and Mennonites: General History
Contrary to popular opinion the Amish broke off the Mennonites because they felt they were becoming too progressive. But to be fair there are as many different branches of the Amish and Mennonite Churches as there are colors and hues of the spectrum of light. Some of your posts alluded to cheats and dirty Amish. Let me tell you that in PA there are some that drive brown buggies that the rest of the Amish world shuns. They are really unpleasant to be around and they don't bathe regularly either. But most of the rest of them are good people. It is true that they will outbid you if they want something. Most of them are hardworking decent people who want to preserve their way of life. – more on that ….later
The Anabaptist movement started even before Menno Simons, a former Catholic Priest, had his falling out with the reformers over infant baptism and the use of deadly force although it was named for him as he did much to pull the early church together. If you have a copy of Foxes Book of Martys or Martyrs Mirror you can find stories of Christians being persecuted for their faith all the way back to the Roman Empire. Some of them are truly amazing. But among them you will find names like Georges Blauroch and Stephen Saddler who were leaders in the early Anabaptist church.
The birthplace of the movement was in the fertile Alsace-Lorraine area of Switzerland. After the Reformation and having been branded as heretics, the Anabaptists got on with life. They were known for their farming skills, peaceful ways and for staying to themselves. As different wars broke out they migrated. Many started coming to America in the 1700's, others went to Russia where they were wanted because they had developed a hardy winter wheat. But eventually war forced them out of Russia as well. Most of these Mennonites immigrated to Canada and then down into the Upper and Central Plains states.
In Northern Indiana we had all kinds of Amish and Mennonites. Remember the Amish split off the Mennonites even though they are more conservative in many ways than the Menno's. In our community there Old Order Amish, and Old Order Mennonites. Both drive horse and buggy. The OOA's clothing is all handmade with hooks and eyes and buttons – no zippers. The men also wear beards but no mustache… Why you ask? Because the mustache is military in bearing. The OOM's don't wear beards - I don't know why… never was important to me. The men wear store bought clothes but the ladies dress much the same way as the OOA ladies. Both farm with horses although the OOM's sometimes have tractors with steel wheels. The OOA's don't have electric in the home but the OOM's do. OOM's meet every week in a church building; women and children on one side of the aisle, men and boys on the other.
The rest of the groups I will mention all drive cars although some paint their bumpers black. Chrome is just too worldly. Beachy Amish, German Baptist, Dunkerd Brethren, Wisler Mennonites, Salem Mennonites, Conservative Mennonites, Old Mennonites, and General Conference Mennonites. My wife and I were married in a Mennonite-Brethren Church in Hesston, Kansas.
As with all church splits they happened over doctrine. Amman split because of his belief that the beard was supposed to be untrimmed and that members of other churches could not be saved. In my conversations with my family they no longer hold this view but if you ask them what they believe instead of telling you they will invite you to come live with them and see.
Most of the other splits occurred over whether to hold Sunday school, hold the services in English or German sing parts or unison. Run a search on the internet for "Mennonites in Elkhart County" or "Mennonites in Pennsylvania" and you find just how petty some of these splits were.
Usually anything that says "old order" means that that church follows the old way of doing things.
Up until 25 years ago the church I grew up in didn't allow instruments other than the piano and organ and then not for congregational singing. Fortunately, we had a minister of music who let the Jazz Band at the local college and he started a instrumental ensemble. But it was only in the past 6-8 years that they started singing anything but 4-part accapella music. Also about the same time frame the more progressive General Conference merged with the conservative Old Mennonites.
I have loads of humorous stories I heard during my days in schools from teachers and profs. Some of them show stupidity and arrogance and others are just funny. But think about this. I can tell you about "sowing wild oats" and the "bundling board" and why there are vehicles always parked in front of an Amish house that has teenagers living there.
The next time you sit down with favorite brewski you might want to say a word of thanks to the Mennonites who brought the art with them from the old country. See up until prohibition Mennonites owned some of the breweries. But taking the verse about not being a stumbling block seriously they sold the breweries and at least outwardly and in Church teaching began to postulate against the evil of alcohol. However, I have since learned that at least as of my generation take the verses about moderation and wine being good for stomach to heart as don't.
Oh, and you know how most Amish and Mennonite names are Germanic in origin? In Northern Indiana there are Amish with the last name of Jones. It seems there was this horse trader from Wyoming that came to Northern Indiana for a horse auction sometime in the early part the last century, met an Amish girl and was smitten with her. He went to ask her father if he could call on her and her father told him only if joined the Amish Church. Long story short the there are a bunch of Amish in Northern Indiana with an English last name.
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
I'm takin my dog out of this fight. :lol:
