thoughts on Amish

[rogergreaves]

I remember a few years back folks were making statements about the Amish and Mennonites not paying taxes for the roads they used.

The community leaders went to the local governments to contribute, but there was no paperwork in place for the local tax collector to document their funds. Funds were not accepted.

How about the folks who ride bicycles on public roads. Do they pay taxes for them?

So maybe we need not complain.

Amish pay taxes. Local, state and federal.

Nope, not true, atleast not here. We have over 20 different amish guys that work for us, out of those we have 4 or 5 every day depending in who wants to work that day. Been around them for years and know them well. They do not pay income tax and they don't pay real estate tax because there's a rotation they go through each week of who's house they have church in, so it makes there house 's all churches.

They are not bad people, but they are not quite as honest and as holy as many think they are. They will try to make jobs last longer to make more money and sit around on jobs or leave early when they think you won't find out. Nothing that doesn't happen with non Amish employees, but it's not like the Amish won't cheat a person.

As for the 10 year old driving, I don't have much of a opinion, as far as i know any 10 year old can ride a horse or bicycle up the side of the road. I guess the issues that come about from that are the parents problem.

The idea that churches don't pay taxes is false. Pastors pay income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, etc. Secretary's at the church pay all of that too. The church pays worker's comp on anyone that works there. Most churches have a business license and pay the fee. Everything they buy has sales tax on it. If there's an elevator, there's an annual inspection, ours is $100 to the state plus whatever the elevator company charges. We don't pay general property tax but we do pay the various district assessments. If a church expands, building permit at full fee. My church also had to give an easement to the city, 20 feet wide and 500 feet of highway frontage for a bike lane. We were not compensated. It was part of the price to get that building permit to expand. The number of trees on the lot and their placement were dictated by the City. The pipe under the highway to carry the utilities was paid for by the church, it supports the neighboring businesses. It's absurd size and therefore extreme expense was dictated by the city. Since we are a non-profit, we don't pay business tax on our profit, which we have none anyway. Same as any non-profit like oh, Planned Parenthood.

As far as Amish being unscrupulous employees, that's all anecdotal. I feel the same way about everyone I hire to work around the farm or house. My former employer was fond of saying I OWED him 15 minutes. I think the poster has some bigoted feelings towards Amish and or Churches in general.

Those Amish guys you work with? They certainly pay income tax IF their income is high enough to require it. However they like many on this board also probably file a schedule F and can write their farm losses off of their earned income netting them out to zero tax owed.

No, I'm Lutheran.

 

[HDRider]

Related to Amish, but not buggy accidents...

Contrary to some misperceptions, the Amish do pay taxes: state and federal income taxes, sales and real estate taxes, and public school taxes. They are exempt from paying Social Security taxes, however, because they consider Social Security a form of insurance and refuse its benefits.

 

[Bigfoot]

Your right, about the only thing that they out and out get around paying is Social Security. Most burn farm diesal, and there is no property tax etc. on a tractor. I think that's how the rumor got started that they don't pay taxes. I'd say between the amount of bartering amongst themselves, and all the cash business that they do, in the end they probably pay no state or federal income taxes.

I don't think the OP has a dull axe for churches.

 

[TexasBred]

The idea that churches don't pay taxes is false. Pastors pay income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, etc. Secretary's at the church pay all of that too. The church pays worker's comp on anyone that works there. Most churches have a business license and pay the fee. Everything they buy has sales tax on it. If there's an elevator, there's an annual inspection, ours is $100 to the state plus whatever the elevator company charges. We don't pay general property tax but we do pay the various district assessments. If a church expands, building permit at full fee. My church also had to give an easement to the city, 20 feet wide and 500 feet of highway frontage for a bike lane. We were not compensated. It was part of the price to get that building permit to expand. The number of trees on the lot and their placement were dictated by the City. The pipe under the highway to carry the utilities was paid for by the church, it supports the neighboring businesses. It's absurd size and therefore extreme expense was dictated by the city. Since we are a non-profit, we don't pay business tax on our profit, which we have none anyway. Same as any non-profit like oh, Planned Parenthood.

As far as Amish being unscrupulous employees, that's all anecdotal. I feel the same way about everyone I hire to work around the farm or house. My former employer was fond of saying I OWED him 15 minutes. I think the poster has some bigoted feelings towards Amish and or Churches in general.

Those Amish guys you work with? They certainly pay income tax IF their income is high enough to require it. However they like many on this board also probably file a schedule F and can write their farm losses off of their earned income netting them out to zero tax owed.

No, I'm Lutheran.

Most folks when saying "Churches do not pay taxes" are talking about federal income tax otherwise there would be no need for the church to even be considered "tax exempt". They pay no federal income tax on the monies that are given to the church throughout the year. As for pastors, by law I believe all pastors are considered "self employed".
Don'tknow about all of you folks bu to me "Amish" is more the name of a people than a religion although I guess the name is used interchangeably. Sort of like Jew and Jew....one a religion, one an ethnicity. And yes they sound pretty normal to me....some saints and some worthless.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I'm going to go ahead and back out of this conversation. All I can go on is what Amish men have told me for the last 15 years. I don't think I can add anything else at this point.

 

[Bigfoot]

We have 5 distinct different kinds, in the county I live in alone. If we have 5 different kinds, then there is no telling how much diversity exist nation wide. I know of atleast 2 families that became amish. I can also think of 15 or 20 off the top of my head, that have left the amish community.

 

[HDRider]

We have 5 distinct different kinds, in the county I live in alone. If we have 5 different kinds, then there is no telling how much diversity exist nation wide. I know of atleast 2 families that became amish. I can also think of 15 or 20 off the top of my head, that have left the amish community.

When I lived up close to Nappanee and Shipshewana I was told 1 out of three born Amish leave the Amish community. I think they typically have large families.

I always admired their work ethic and craftsmanship.

 

[Bigfoot]

I can't believe I'm going there, but here I go:

Part of my job as a Christian, is to share the good news with others. You won't see many Amish or Mennonites embracing that philosophy.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Interesting that a society spends so much time saying things like: Don't judge me, It's my life, or I'm only hurting myself. Then spends the rest of the time trying to make other people conform to their norm with no moral compass.

Leave them be. There's good and bad in everything.

Today it's the Amish boy in a cart, tomorrow it's your kids for driving a tractor in a field...wait, that was yesterday. Carry on.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I can't believe I'm going there, but here I go:

Part of my job as a Christian, is to share the good news with others. You won't see many Amish or Mennonites embracing that philosophy.

I've had some somewhat deep discussions with people in many different perspectives. But reading this thread, realize I haven't with any of the semi local Mennonites.

 

[rogergreaves]

The idea that churches don't pay taxes is false. Pastors pay income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, etc. Secretary's at the church pay all of that too. The church pays worker's comp on anyone that works there. Most churches have a business license and pay the fee. Everything they buy has sales tax on it. If there's an elevator, there's an annual inspection, ours is $100 to the state plus whatever the elevator company charges. We don't pay general property tax but we do pay the various district assessments. If a church expands, building permit at full fee. My church also had to give an easement to the city, 20 feet wide and 500 feet of highway frontage for a bike lane. We were not compensated. It was part of the price to get that building permit to expand. The number of trees on the lot and their placement were dictated by the City. The pipe under the highway to carry the utilities was paid for by the church, it supports the neighboring businesses. It's absurd size and therefore extreme expense was dictated by the city. Since we are a non-profit, we don't pay business tax on our profit, which we have none anyway. Same as any non-profit like oh, Planned Parenthood.

As far as Amish being unscrupulous employees, that's all anecdotal. I feel the same way about everyone I hire to work around the farm or house. My former employer was fond of saying I OWED him 15 minutes. I think the poster has some bigoted feelings towards Amish and or Churches in general.

Those Amish guys you work with? They certainly pay income tax IF their income is high enough to require it. However they like many on this board also probably file a schedule F and can write their farm losses off of their earned income netting them out to zero tax owed.

No, I'm Lutheran.

Most folks when saying "Churches do not pay taxes" are talking about federal income tax otherwise there would be no need for the church to even be considered "tax exempt". They pay no federal income tax on the monies that are given to the church throughout the year. As for pastors, by law I believe all pastors are considered "self employed".
Don'tknow about all of you folks bu to me "Amish" is more the name of a people than a religion although I guess the name is used interchangeably. Sort of like Jew and Jew....one a religion, one an ethnicity. And yes they sound pretty normal to me....some saints and some worthless.

Nor does a for profit business pay taxes on the revenues they receive. Depending on their corporate structure, they pay on their profit, some pay on the pass through. Our Church spends the majority of the tithe on operations and missions, there is a little reserve but no profit. The pastor is an employee as is the secretary.

 

[TexasBred]

Nor does a for profit business pay taxes on the revenues they receive. Depending on their corporate structure, they pay on their profit, some pay on the pass through. Our Church spends the majority of the tithe on operations and missions, there is a little reserve but no profit. The pastor is an employee as is the secretary.

Better check the IRS code. I think you'll find THEY consider him self employed even though the church writes his check every week or month....and social security definitely charges him at the self employment rate.

 

[TexasBred]

That is a pretty sad story! We lived in Lancaster, Pa when I was young and had Amish all around us. They are humans like us all...but they had many cultural identities that I very much admire. Sorry to hear about the young man!!

Tim

Still hoping someday to visit Amish country. We have scattered communities of Mennonites down here but most of them utilize all the modern conveniences available but still operate more like a commune than an open society.

 

[rogergreaves]

Nor does a for profit business pay taxes on the revenues they receive. Depending on their corporate structure, they pay on their profit, some pay on the pass through. Our Church spends the majority of the tithe on operations and missions, there is a little reserve but no profit. The pastor is an employee as is the secretary.

Better check the IRS code. I think you'll find THEY consider him self employed even though the church writes his check every week or month....and social security definitely charges him at the self employment rate.

He's a W-2 employee. He pays half the FICA and Medicare and the Church pays the employer half. Same as almost all employees. The collar is not what determines the employer/employee relationship with the IRS. The Churches that you are referring to are the ones where a "minister" sets up a church and has ownership of the entity. I think all (every one that I know of) Lutheran Churches are owned by the congregation, they are "not for profit" corporations with boards of directors who run them. The pastor is a hired hand, they come and go. The Catholic model is not far different except that the ownership is at the Diocese level I think. Priests are also hired hands. That's a lot of the Churches in the US.

The issue was the statement that Churches don't pay taxes which I will re-iterate is false. Even the minister-as-owner model pays some sort of income tax if the income is at a level where tax is due. Self employed people pay the full FICA and Medicare out of their pocket, collar or not.

That's not to say that there aren't some scams going on out there but, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of churches are working very hard to stay on the right side of the law and endure scrutiny that you can't imagine. Our financial statement is audited yearly and certified by an accountant. Every expenditure has a receipt to justify it. It's a public document. The Treasurer also publishes a monthly financial statement in our newsletter which anyone can have a copy of. Send me your email and I'll get you a subscription. I don't know how an outfit could be any more transparent.

 

[rogergreaves]

The only thing that bothers me about the Amish is if you have a job to be done and they take the day off for a"frolic". First time I heard about that I was POed until I found out that a frolic for the Amish is everyone getting together to do some project. Raise a barn, put up hay, etc.
The Amish around here must be more strict then some other areas. No driving cars/trucks/tractors no electric power tools, but they will run a chansaw if they absolutely have to. Otherwise the "English" guy that drove them to the job site does that.

When your a genarel contractor trying to finish a job that you have someone waiting on, and they wait till the evening before to tell you they have a frolic and won't be there, it's not very good.

They can't drive or keep power tools at home, but there driver can keep the tools and the Amish guys buy them, they can use them on jobs but not on there own property. They can also pay for a driver or neighbor to get them a cell phone that they can't have at there house, but use other times and places.

I live in North Idaho. If you're a contractor or anyone else expecting a job to be done and your crew shows up, it's a good day. If half show up, it's a normal day. If none show up, it's hunting season. They are not Amish, just not as committed to their work as I was expected to be where I came from. They get away with it because they can.

 

[TexasBred]

Nor does a for profit business pay taxes on the revenues they receive. Depending on their corporate structure, they pay on their profit, some pay on the pass through. Our Church spends the majority of the tithe on operations and missions, there is a little reserve but no profit. The pastor is an employee as is the secretary.

Better check the IRS code. I think you'll find THEY consider him self employed even though the church writes his check every week or month....and social security definitely charges him at the self employment rate.

He's a W-2 employee. He pays half the FICA and Medicare and the Church pays the employer half. Same as almost all employees. The collar is not what determines the employer/employee relationship with the IRS. The Churches that you are referring to are the ones where a "minister" sets up a church and has ownership of the entity. I think all (every one that I know of) Lutheran Churches are owned by the congregation, they are "not for profit" corporations with boards of directors who run them. The pastor is a hired hand, they come and go. The Catholic model is not far different except that the ownership is at the Diocese level I think. Priests are also hired hands. That's a lot of the Churches in the US.

The issue was the statement that Churches don't pay taxes which I will re-iterate is false. Even the minister-as-owner model pays some sort of income tax if the income is at a level where tax is due. Self employed people pay the full FICA and Medicare out of their pocket, collar or not.

That's not to say that there aren't some scams going on out there but, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of churches are working very hard to stay on the right side of the law and endure scrutiny that you can't imagine. Our financial statement is audited yearly and certified by an accountant. Every expenditure has a receipt to justify it. It's a public document. The Treasurer also publishes a monthly financial statement in our newsletter which anyone can have a copy of. Send me your email and I'll get you a subscription. I don't know how an outfit could be any more transparent.

Does your church file a federal income tax return?? NO !!!....any taxes it pay it pays simply on behalf of an employee who owes the taxes. Churches do not even pay property taxes. Catholic churches are owned by the local parrish.

For what it's worth here is what IRS says:

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc417.html Not worth arguing over one way or the other.

 

[backhoeboogie]

The woman driving the SUV that rear ended the buggy is now claiming she was blinded by the sun. Is that an admission of guilt? Sure sounds like it.