american history part deux

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The most widespread myth about the civil war is also the most basic. Across America, 60 percent to 75 percent of high-school history teachers believe and teach that the South seceded for state's rights, said Jim Loewen, author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" (Touchstone, 1996) and co-editor of "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The 'Great Truth' about the 'Lost Cause'" (University Press of Mississippi, 2010).

"It's complete B.S.," Loewen told LiveScience. "And by B.S., I mean 'bad scholarship.'"

In fact, Loewen said, the original documents of the Confederacy show quite clearly that the war was based on one thing: slavery. For example, in its declaration of secession, Mississippi explained, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." In its declaration of secession, South Carolina actually comes out against the rights of states to make their own laws — at least when those laws conflict with slaveholding. "In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals," the document reads. The right of transit, Loewen said, was the right of slaveholders to bring their slaves along with them on trips to non-slaveholding states.

In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."

The myth that the war was not about slavery seems to be a self-protective one for many people, said Stan Deaton, the senior historian at the Georgia Historical Society.

"People think that somehow it demonizes their ancestors," to have fought for slavery, Deaton told LiveScience. But the people fighting at the time were very much aware of what was at stake, Deaton said.

"[Defining the war] is our problem," he said. "I don't think it was theirs."
 
Are you willing to go to war simply to defend slavery today?

Only a minority of the population owned slaves.

This is like saying I would go to war to drive a Ford when all I have ever driven is a Chevy and have no intention of driving a Ford. But I want to go to war to keep a Ford I don't own.

The south seceded. They did not go to war. People in Texas want to secede today. Secede Texas is a major movement with much support.
They are not declaring war.

What are you going to debate tomorrow?

Certainly someone did go to war to protect their investments. But that was not the sole purpose of the war as is taught in the history books. You support everything in the history books as fact and defend it. Why? They are proving much of it wrong left and right.

Keep digging. Keep drinking the Koolaid.
 
backhoeboogie":37ecoqs3 said:
Are you willing to go to war simply to defend slavery today? No and not then either. I have never believed in slavery.But I don't have a huge cotton crop and noone to pick it.

Only a minority of the population owned slaves. WE've discussed this...yet a huge majority were in the south. 3.5 million...gotta have hands to work those big plantations. Free labor is the best labor.

This is like saying I would go to war to drive a Ford when all I have ever driven is a Chevy and have no intention of driving a Ford. But I want to go to war to keep a Ford I don't own. What you said is jibberish but most went to war with no idea of what they were fighting for..pure ignorance. Just wanted to fight yankees and gain the POWER. You know.....Have a huge CSA instead of USA and still have slaves. :nod:

The south seceded. They did not go to war. People in Texas want to secede today. Secede Texas is a major movement with much support. Who fired on Fort Sumpter???
They are not declaring war. Texas can preach secede til he!! freezes over. It ain't gonna happen. Contrary to popular belief that right does not exist. But then we could always have another war. This one would last about 30 minutes if the US wanted to draw it out.

What are you going to debate tomorrow? Doesn't matter to me. You want me to sit here and let you fill up the pages with more misinformation?? You're good at that. BS only gets you so for then you better have facts and not just shoot from the hip !!!

Certainly someone did go to war to protect their investments. Dam right they did...even to the point of hiring you folks to fill in and fight for their boys so they wouldn't have to go war.

Keep digging. Keep drinking the Koolaid.Maybe it would help you if you would read more than Jr. high level history and read some historical writings done by someone other than descendants of southern belles. Someone with some real credentials and credibility.

BTW my previous post was a cut and paste. Please not that it was done by a scholarly gentleman from the University of MISSISSIPPI. :shock: :shock:
 
Keep it civil or this one will go down the toilet like the other history thread did!
 
retro":3sl40ye7 said:
sim.-ang.king":3sl40ye7 said:
Should of picked your own cotton if you didn't like what happen...
Say what you want but you claim your held captive by the septic tank called Chicago , and Lincoln, was from Springfield which is true . But you still list Il. as the state you live in and your truck plates say "Land of Lincoln" and you post a comment about picking your own cotton.....That pretty much indicates to me you Carry the Il. views. You can't pick and choose your playing field. Man Up and choose a side :tiphat:
I'm from Southern Illinois, and my plates say Agriculture on them, so whats your point?
I guess you haven't read anything I've wrote, and your stuck on some stigma about IL. Maybe wishing you were back in IL?
 
sim.-ang.king":32alfwhl said:
retro":32alfwhl said:
sim.-ang.king":32alfwhl said:
Should of picked your own cotton if you didn't like what happen...
Say what you want but you claim your held captive by the septic tank called Chicago , and Lincoln, was from Springfield which is true . But you still list Il. as the state you live in and your truck plates say "Land of Lincoln" and you post a comment about picking your own cotton.....That pretty much indicates to me you Carry the Il. views. You can't pick and choose your playing field. Man Up and choose a side :tiphat:
I'm from Southern Illinois, and my plates say Agriculture on them, so whats your point?
I guess you haven't read anything I've wrote, and your stuck on some stigma about IL. Maybe wishing you were back in IL?


We call them FIBS up here :)
 
sim.-ang.king":sckrxjbh said:
retro":sckrxjbh said:
sim.-ang.king":sckrxjbh said:
Should of picked your own cotton if you didn't like what happen...
Say what you want but you claim your held captive by the septic tank called Chicago , and Lincoln, was from Springfield which is true . But you still list Il. as the state you live in and your truck plates say "Land of Lincoln" and you post a comment about picking your own cotton.....That pretty much indicates to me you Carry the Il. views. You can't pick and choose your playing field. Man Up and choose a side :tiphat:
I'm from Southern Illinois, and my plates say Agriculture on them, so whats your point?
I guess you haven't read anything I've wrote, and your stuck on some stigma about IL. Maybe wishing you were back in IL?
Not Hardly, and I read your posts , Yes I have a stigma about Il. You have done a good job of reminding me why I despise that state. I have no plans on returning to that dump. I think you need to decide which side of the Mason Dixon line you choose to stand on ? You don't claim Il. as your state but then you run your mouth against the south so where do you stand ? That is all I wanted to know
 
TexasBred":3forc2yg said:
.Maybe it would help you if you would read more than Jr. high level history and read some historical writings done by someone other than descendants of southern belles. Someone with some real credentials and credibility.

BTW my previous post was a cut and paste. Please not that it was done by a scholarly gentleman from the University of MISSISSIPPI. :shock: :shock:[/quote]

I've read one of Loewen's books and much of another. Read one of the same diaries he read. Probably others too but there's no way for me to validate that.

My college history was from Weatherford College. Not worthy of bragging but beyond what you cited. Actual studies go beyond that but more focused on San Jacinto battle, Cattle drives, cattlemen and localized personal land interests. Family too.

Brixey is the Civil War buff. An engineer who has spent practically every vacation going to battlegrounds. He retired last year. Spent months going to old battlefields yet again. I figured he had already been to everyone by now.
 
retro":1v6p2m40 said:
sim.-ang.king":1v6p2m40 said:
I'm from Southern Illinois, and my plates say Agriculture on them, so whats your point?
I guess you haven't read anything I've wrote, and your stuck on some stigma about IL. Maybe wishing you were back in IL?
Not Hardly, and I read your posts , Yes I have a stigma about Il. You have done a good job of reminding me why I despise that state. I have no plans on returning to that dump. I think you need to decide which side of the Mason Dixon line you choose to stand on ? You don't claim Il. as your state but then you run your mouth against the south so where do you stand ? That is all I wanted to know
I wasn't running my mouth against the south, CB, and I were having a discussion about slavery, and before you butted in we came to the the conclusion that there were slave owners in the North and South, and they started the war. Just like every war, the politicians fire the first shot. I stand for myself, and I don't need an Chicagonite telling me I need to pick sides.
 
W T Block III had some good history work for south east, Texas. Lots of mentions on my ancestors. That was very interesting reading back when too. I enjoyed his work.
 
sim.-ang.king":257ekebc said:
retro":257ekebc said:
sim.-ang.king":257ekebc said:
I'm from Southern Illinois, and my plates say Agriculture on them, so whats your point?
I guess you haven't read anything I've wrote, and your stuck on some stigma about IL. Maybe wishing you were back in IL?
Not Hardly, and I read your posts , Yes I have a stigma about Il. You have done a good job of reminding me why I despise that state. I have no plans on returning to that dump. I think you need to decide which side of the Mason Dixon line you choose to stand on ? You don't claim Il. as your state but then you run your mouth against the south so where do you stand ? That is all I wanted to know
I wasn't running my mouth against the south, CB, and I were having a discussion about slavery, and before you butted in we came to the the conclusion that there were slave owners in the North and South, and they started the war. Just like every war, the politicians fire the first shot. I stand for myself, and I don't need an Chicagonite telling me I need to pick sides.


You are dead on Sim it was the politicians that started the war and it was about money and power.
The Civil War was the first time conscription was used in mass to make people fight for a cause that had no
dog in the fight.
The slaves of the South and I know it sounds ludicrous had more rights and protections under the law than
they did as freemen after the war.
 
A particular mid-wife had a slave ride with her as she did her rounds. He rode with her before, during and after the war. That hasw always intrigued me. There is a story there but I cannot find it.
 
Caustic Burno":z40hp8ni said:
The slaves of the South and I know it sounds ludicrous had more rights and protections under the law than
they did as freemen after the war.

Boy did they ever have such rights and protections. Almost free as birds until emancipation and then their rights disappeared. Here is a list of some of those rights and protections.

Virginia, 1705 – "If any slave resists his master...correcting such a slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction...the master shall be free of all punishment...as if such accident never happened."
South Carolina, 1712 - "Be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no master, mistress, overseer, or other person whatsoever, that hath the care and charge of any negro or slave, shall give their negroes and other slaves leave...to go out of their plantations.... Every slave hereafter out of his master's plantation, without a ticket, or leave in writing, from his master...shall be whipped...."
Louisiana, 1724 - "The slave who, having struck his master, his mistress, or the husband of his mistress, or their children, shall have produced a bruise, or the shedding of blood in the face, shall suffer capital punishment."
Reading by slaves illegal[edit]
Some Slavery Codes made teaching Mulatto, Indian and indentured slaves illegal.[3]

Alabama, 1833, section 31 - "Any person or persons who attempt to teach any free person of color, or slave, to spell, read, or write, shall, upon conviction thereof by indictment, be fined in a sum not less than two hundred and fifty dollars, nor more than five hundred dollars."
Alabama, 1833, section 32 - "Any free person of color who shall write for any slave a pass or free paper, on conviction thereof, shall receive for every such offense, thirty-nine lashes on the bare back, and leave the state of Alabama within thirty days thereafter..."
Alabama, 1833, section 33 - "Any slave who shall write for any other slave, any pass or free-paper, upon conviction, shall receive, on his or her back, one hundred lashes for the first offence, and seven hundred lashes for every offence thereafter..."
Example slave codes[edit]
Deep South[edit]
South Carolina established its slave code in 1712, based on the 1688 English slave code employed in Barbados. The South Carolina slave code served as the model for other colonies in North America. In 1770, Georgia adopted the South Carolina slave code, and then Florida adopted the Georgia code.[4] The 1712 South Carolina slave code included provisions such as:[4]

Slaves were forbidden to leave the owner's property, unless accompanied by a white person, or obtaining permission. If a slave leaves the owner's property without permission, "every white person" is required to chastise such slaves
Any slave attempting to run away and leave the colony (later, state) receives the death penalty
Any slave who evades capture for 20 days or more is to be publicly whipped for the first offense; branded with the letter R on the right cheek for the second offense; and lose one ear if absent for thirty days for the third offense; and castrated for the fourth offense.
Owners refusing to abide by the slave code are fined and forfeit ownership of their slaves
Slave homes are to be searched every two weeks for weapons or stolen goods. Punishment for violations escalate to include loss of ear, branding, and nose-slitting, and for the fourth offense, death.
No slave shall be allowed to work for pay, or to plant corn, peas or rice; or to keep hogs, cattle, or horses; or to own or operate a boat; to buy or sell; or to wear clothes finer than 'Negro cloth'
The South Carolina slave code was revised in 1739 with the following amendments:[4]

No slave shall be taught to write, work on Sunday, or work more than 15 hours per day in Summer, and 14 hours in Winter.
Willful killing of a slave exacts a fine of 700 pounds, and "passion" killing 350 pounds
The fine for concealing runaway slaves is $1,000 and a prison sentence of up to one year
A fine of $100 and six months in prison are imposed for employing any Black or slave as a clerk
A fine of $100 and six months in prison are imposed on anyone selling or giving alcoholic beverages to slaves
A fine of $100 and six months in prison are imposed for teaching a slave to read and write, and death is the penalty for circulating incendiary literature
Freeing a slave is forbidden, except by deed, and after 1820, only by permission of the legislature [Georgia required legislative approval after 1801]
Some elements of these codes were rarely or laxly enforced as they imposed costs or limitations upon (politically powerful) slaveowners. For instance, well after 1712, slaves commonly worked for hire in Charleston.[5]

Tobacco states[edit]
The slave codes of the tobacco colonies (Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia) were modeled on the Virginia code, which was initially established in 1667.[4] The 1682 Virginia code included the following provisions:[6]

Slaves were prohibited from possessing weapons
Slaves were prohibited from leaving their owner's plantations without permission
Slaves were prohibited from lifting a hand against a white person, even in self-defense
A runaway slave refusing to surrender could be killed without penalty
 
TB look at the number of lynchings of freemen after the war, we haven't touched tar and feathers, disappearance with no one looking .Or the best yet just shot for no reason and never investigated.
You are cherry picking. Before the war they were considered property that did come with some protections depending on the owner or state after a nuisance to be done away with the reason the KKK was founded.
To continue the fight as a guerrilla war.

Go read about the Pecker wood Jaybird Rebellion in Texas alone.
These politics carried on and ran Texas until the 1970's.
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01


Another good read
http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/classroo ... gstat.html

Louisianans Code
http://www.blackpast.org/primary/louisi ... -noir-1724
 
Might I just remind everyone that this is a thread about all American History, and there are some very interesting explanations coming forth. That is what I wished for when I started this, to learn from my peers and betters. Play nice please
 
Caustic Burno":p5cebrio said:
TB look at the number of lynchings of freemen after the war, we haven't touched tar and feathers, disappearance with no one looking .Or the best yet just shot for no reason and never investigated.
You are cherry picking. Before the war they were considered property that did come with some protections depending on the owner or state after a nuisance to be done away with the reason the KKK was founded.
To continue the fight as a guerrilla war.

Go read about the Pecker wood Jaybird Rebellion in Texas alone.
These politics carried on and ran Texas until the 1970's.
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01


Another good read
http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/classroo ... gstat.html

Louisianans Code
http://www.blackpast.org/primary/louisi ... -noir-1724

You're talking about random individual cases. I'm giving you state law that goes back 150 years prior to the civil war...laws that punish slave owners if the did NOT enforce the law. Don'ttell me slaves had it good...You know that's a lie but you're not honest enough to ever admit it. Nobody's is blaming you. You owned no slaves. Sure there was the occasional lynching and tar and feathers but you yourself will agree there is nothing like FREEDOM !!!!!! We discuss it on here often.
 
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