Would you condider this bull good for heiffers?

[Amo]

OK, used an angus bull AI called Baldridge Lancelot. His CED is +10 and BW is 1.3. I used him on a comercial cow. Never gave it a thought about keeping him. Ive never weighed at birth. Anyhow after looking @ him I decided not to cut him. So now Im thinking about using him as a heiffer bull. I decided to do a Pfizer 50K test on him. The test came back with a CED on him with 6.2. My Genex rep said that they normally recomend 7 or higher for CED. 5-6 for registared guys. Called the people that owned Lancelot. He stated that he did work on heiffers, but was a tad bit on the big side. Said if they were bigger framed it would proably be alright. The mother of my bull is a big cow. My heiffer bull was bought in 2007. Thinking about AIing the heiffers and trying my bull as clean up. Most of the heiffers will be angus or black baldie. Some of the Hereford cows have a tick of semital in them. Guessing thats a ways back. Also a very, very tid bit of Charlois way way back in a small handfull. I can sell them if I want.

So would you roll the dice or not?

http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.a ... gHCw%3d%3d

 

[Old_man_emu]

was your bull a big calf at birth?
What is his shape like? Does he have good smooth shoulders?
And do you keep a close eye on your heifers in the last trimester to keep them from gettin over fat or allowing the unborn calf to grow too big?
I'm finding heifer nutrition to have the biggest impact for on calving ease in my herd.

 

[regolith]

Taking into account that I know nothing about breeding beef heifers.

No.

Factors influencing that decision:- no birthweight, unproven EPDs, sire not particularly recommended for heifers, dam a large cow, possible large breed influence on some heifers.
It's all right there in your post. If you AI to a calving ease bull and say we've been discussing 80% catch on these boards, you're risking 20% of your heifers to an unproven, possibly overlarge bull. If you're happy to pull a few calves, fine, if you have a 'we don't pull calves' policy, veto this bull.

 

[cow pollinater]

I wouldn't try it with ticks and tidbits of char and sim genetics lurking on the females side.

 

[vclavin]

As his dam is a +1 for CED you may be in trouble. His CED has risen due his sire side only. If there had been several generations of low BW and High CED in both sides of the pedigree then I'd chance it. But then, you know your females better than we do.
Valerie

 

[Amo]

Ya I know I was in a mood to ask kinda dumb questions that night. Im not real sure if the Pfizer 50K CED # is the same as an Angus CED #. I emailed Pfizer like Friday. Haven't heard back yet. Sent email to university guy as well.

You guys kinda confirmed my thoughts as well. Hes not a bad looking bull shoulders wise. I cant ever remember having a problem with that cow needing help. Of course it had 8 calves so kinda hard to remember. I don't mind pulling a few if I have to. I don't think anybody likes it, but I don't mind it either. If I only have to pull 20% of 20-30 head it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world except breed back. The MGS was a EXT x 6807 bull. His inital BW was I think a 3 or so. I know that can go either way if you take wts. I will say I never had to pull a calf from that bull though. Ill proably sell anything with the wee bit of Char. Bull prices are going to be scary Im afarid.

Old man emu....so do you mean too much or not enough? Ive know the old timers have the thearoy of too much feed makes them grow. Ive heard mixed results. I don't push them rolly polly fat. In fact I don't think this years would be over a 6 BCS. Old guy told me to make them have lots and lots of exercise. I feed them a long ways from water.

Thanks.

 

[Old_man_emu]

To much nutrition in the last trimester.
I find in good seasons it is hard to keep the heifers only at a maintenance level diet. If in the last 3 months prior to calving if they are only gaining at about 1.5 lbs a day that should be about right.

 

[vclavin]

Ya I know I was in a mood to ask kinda dumb questions that night. Im not real sure if the Pfizer 50K CED # is the same as an Angus CED #. I emailed Pfizer like Friday. Haven't heard back yet. Sent email to university guy as well.

You guys kinda confirmed my thoughts as well. Hes not a bad looking bull shoulders wise. I cant ever remember having a problem with that cow needing help. Of course it had 8 calves so kinda hard to remember. I don't mind pulling a few if I have to. I don't think anybody likes it, but I don't mind it either. If I only have to pull 20% of 20-30 head it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world except breed back. The MGS was a EXT x 6807 bull. His inital BW was I think a 3 or so. I know that can go either way if you take wts. I will say I never had to pull a calf from that bull though. Ill proably sell anything with the wee bit of Char. Bull prices are going to be scary Im afarid.

Old man emu....so do you mean too much or not enough? Ive know the old timers have the thearoy of too much feed makes them grow. Ive heard mixed results. I don't push them rolly polly fat. In fact I don't think this years would be over a 6 BCS. Old guy told me to make them have lots and lots of exercise. I feed them a long ways from water.

Thanks.

About 30-60 days before calving, we feed heifers and cows twice a day and last feeding at 8:30 pm. They receive about 5-8lbs of 12% high fiber feed with free choice hay. They calve at 7-8 BCS and have no problems, calves are born from 65-92lbs with an occasional 98lb (rare) , Haven't pulled a calf since 2006 and it was a bull with front leg under him.
Good luck.
Valerie

 

[cypressfarms]

About 30-60 days before calving, we feed heifers and cows twice a day and last feeding at 8:30 pm. They receive about 5-8lbs of 12% high fiber feed with free choice hay. They calve at 7-8 BCS and have no problems, calves are born from 65-92lbs with an occasional 98lb (rare) , Haven't pulled a calf since 2006 and it was a bull with front leg under him.
Good luck.
Valerie

We'll have to agree to disagree......I never like first time heifers calving fat. Too much risk for problems. a 7-8 BCS is asking for problems, in my opinion. What's the harm in having them calve at 5 BCS, and not risking the potential loss of a calf or moma? Again, I'll respectfully have to disagree with you. I watched a man one year who had bought a truckload of bred Angus based commercial heifers. He let them graze very lush ryegrass pastures for a few months before they calved, and the result was a train wreck. He lost over a third of the calves, and about 10% of the momas. They were bred to a low birthweight Angus bull also - not like they were bred to a pallet headed Charolais...

JMHO....

 

[B&M Farms]

About 30-60 days before calving, we feed heifers and cows twice a day and last feeding at 8:30 pm. They receive about 5-8lbs of 12% high fiber feed with free choice hay. They calve at 7-8 BCS and have no problems, calves are born from 65-92lbs with an occasional 98lb (rare) , Haven't pulled a calf since 2006 and it was a bull with front leg under him.
Good luck.
Valerie[/quote]

I have never fed 5-8lbs of any feed besides hay a day. I have never tried to keep a cow at more than a 6 right before calving. I don't worry about it as long as they are no less than a 4 at weaning. They breed back fine and they gain back through the spring and summer. Feeding to a 7 or 8 just increases cost. I would rather creep calves than feed that much to cows.

 

[vclavin]

About 30-60 days before calving, we feed heifers and cows twice a day and last feeding at 8:30 pm. They receive about 5-8lbs of 12% high fiber feed with free choice hay. They calve at 7-8 BCS and have no problems, calves are born from 65-92lbs with an occasional 98lb (rare) , Haven't pulled a calf since 2006 and it was a bull with front leg under him.
Good luck.
Valerie

I have never fed 5-8lbs of any feed besides hay a day. I have never tried to keep a cow at more than a 6 right before calving. I don't worry about it as long as they are no less than a 4 at weaning. They breed back fine and they gain back through the spring and summer. Feeding to a 7 or 8 just increases cost. I would rather creep calves than feed that much to cows.[/quote]
This feed decreases the amount of hay we have to feed the females and seems to balance out the cost. They are NOT fed to be fat but the condition score does not seem to cause us problems, but then, we have pelvic scores that are high enough to calve easily and they breed back fine. I understand not everyone can do it this way... takes time and breeding.
I believe its the OCC that breed heifers to any bull and have the belief that if they can't calve on their own they don't stay in the herd. Seems we all have our own way of doing things .. believe the saying is "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
Valerie