Within breed changes progress or not.

[Ky hills]

In several recent posts I have expressed frustration with a particular breed, but at the same time recognizing that all breeds are ever changing and there is no perfect breed per se.
I started out with Charolais and became used to seeing new young up and coming bulls promoted all the time. I used to say this is hard, because by the time I could get calves on the ground by a certain bull, he was already being overshadowed by the next up and comer that everyone had to use. I found at the time that I ventured to Angus, there was more of a reverence for more proven bulls and I thought that concept was ingenious. Then fast forward a bit and it seems that with the booming popularity of AI, ET that they have went towards the next big thing all the time as well. It used to be that Angus cows were the go to cow, they calved easily, took care of their calves, bred back consistently, just doing everything you could ask for a cow to do. The bulls were reliable, turn one out and the cows got bred. and there calves were small and healthy, generally problem free. I loved those things about them. I am sure that folks with established herds have still good results. My strategy has always been a focus on the maternal end of things from the cows and then try to use bulls that would add or maintain growth while hopefully not taking away from maternal traits of the cows. That direction has been hard to accomplish using the modern bulls that everyone uses. I like those too in that the calves have much more performance than years ago, so I can't fault anyone for going that way. I feel that something has changed drastically in very recent years, as far as fertility and maternal abilities, except for milk. Milking ability seems better, which could possibly account for some decrease in rebreeding. Emphasis on carcass traits could affect too. Just my ramblings maybe something to it maybe not. If so can the trends be amended to yield still highly productive cows while maintaining superior carcass quality feeder calves.

 

[Brute 23]

I agree with you 100%. Its not just cattle. You see it in all types of things. To some degree I feel we have started using our technology to mask basic, reliability, functions in the name of performance no matter if you are talking about trucks or cattle. Also, marketing has started carrying more weight than practicality in a lot of cases also. Its not about what actually works... its about what we can sell.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Grow good cattle, be known for good cattle and don't worry about what cothers are doing.

 

[Stocker Steve]

AI, ET, and DNA testing.
The race is speeding up, way up, for folks chasing the numbers.
This is progress for the skilled seed stock producers and the feed lots.
The question remains on how much does the commercial cow calf operator benefit from this?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

AI, ET, and DNA testing.
The race is speeding up, way up, for folks chasing the numbers.
This is progress for the skilled seed stock producers and the feed lots.
The question remains on how much does the commercial cow calf operator benefit from this?

Benefit a lot I would think..a whole lot of good Bulls out there to choose from,because of the pressure they put on themselves..let them do the rabbit chasing

 

[Ebenezer]

You cannot change them without changing them. Look at working dog and hunting dog breeds in the kennel clubs. Most only know a biscuit, a hair blower and an arena. Would not recognize a cow or a rabbit. Stay in the mainstream and you'll wake up in the ocean.

 

[SPH]

Grow good cattle, be known for good cattle and don't worry about what others are doing.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I LOVE this quote, it should be pinned at the top of this forum!

There are some guys out there who are completely obsessed over what other people are doing and get consumed by it. You can't change what someone else is doing but you are 100% accountable for the decisions you make. I think that anyone who makes it a point to smear or talk poorly of others - especially people they have never even meet or spoken to themselves - that they don't think are doing things right says a lot about their character and reputation as well. I'm pretty sure a potential customer doesn't want to come to your place and have to listen to you talk poorly about another operation or person why you are you are trying to sell them your own cattle. They are there to look at your cattle not someone else's because they probably like how you are doing things so why tarnish your own image and reputation by going down that dark path of talking poorly of someone else? Stick to what you know works for you and what your customers want and you'll be better off for it.

 

[True Grit Farms]

From what I've seen good cattle do the talking for themselves.

 

[Ky hills]

Grow good cattle, be known for good cattle and don't worry about what others are doing.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I LOVE this quote, it should be pinned at the top of this forum!

There are some guys out there who are completely obsessed over what other people are doing and get consumed by it. You can't change what someone else is doing but you are 100% accountable for the decisions you make. I think that anyone who makes it a point to smear or talk poorly of others - especially people they have never even meet or spoken to themselves - that they don't think are doing things right says a lot about their character and reputation as well. I'm pretty sure a potential customer doesn't want to come to your place and have to listen to you talk poorly about another operation or person why you are you are trying to sell them your own cattle. They are there to look at your cattle not someone else's because they probably like how you are doing things so why tarnish your own image and reputation by going down that dark path of talking poorly of someone else? Stick to what you know works for you and what your customers want and you'll be better off for it.

I am not sure if you are referring to the tone of my original post or not, but if so please understand that smearing or talking poorly about anyone was not my intention and I sincerely apologize to anyone that has been offended. I was stating personal observations and experiences and putting them in the context of a microcosm of the directions on a larger scale across the industry. I just am not an eloquent speaker/writer. I do very much believe what I have heard from others that singular trait selection such as for carcass quality can likely have an adverse affect on reproductive efficiency of cows. I referenced experiences with bulls and cows from the region as well as ones that were home raised, as we all tend to use similar mainstream genetics. I consider these cattle breeders to be good folks of good character, and many are friends. I have heard similar statements critical of the general direction within their respective breeds. If someone comes to my farm they can likely see a wide range of quality ranging from hopefully pretty good cows to some that should be culled, and that is what I am working at. I am trying to find what works best on our farm under our management. We are in the early stages of rebuilding the cowherd, so naturally heavy culling is to be expected, just have been surprised along the way at what seems to be working and what hasn't worked as well. It has sometimes ran contrary to what some have suggested. Again not saying anyone was wrong, I just haven't had the same experiences. Cattle have always been a big part of my life, though we are just a small farm in comparison to most. I have the only utmost respect for fellow cattle men and women regardless of size of their outfits or the breeds they run.

Bill

 

[ClinchValley]

I didn't take from your original post that you were coming at any specific person. Just the situation.

 

[SPH]

Grow good cattle, be known for good cattle and don't worry about what others are doing.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I LOVE this quote, it should be pinned at the top of this forum!

There are some guys out there who are completely obsessed over what other people are doing and get consumed by it. You can't change what someone else is doing but you are 100% accountable for the decisions you make. I think that anyone who makes it a point to smear or talk poorly of others - especially people they have never even meet or spoken to themselves - that they don't think are doing things right says a lot about their character and reputation as well. I'm pretty sure a potential customer doesn't want to come to your place and have to listen to you talk poorly about another operation or person why you are you are trying to sell them your own cattle. They are there to look at your cattle not someone else's because they probably like how you are doing things so why tarnish your own image and reputation by going down that dark path of talking poorly of someone else? Stick to what you know works for you and what your customers want and you'll be better off for it.

I am not sure if you are referring to the tone of my original post or not, but if so please understand that smearing or talking poorly about anyone was not my intention and I sincerely apologize to anyone that has been offended. I was stating personal observations and experiences and putting them in the context of a microcosm of the directions on a larger scale across the industry. I just am not an eloquent speaker/writer. I do very much believe what I have heard from others that singular trait selection such as for carcass quality can likely have an adverse affect on reproductive efficiency of cows. I referenced experiences with bulls and cows from the region as well as ones that were home raised, as we all tend to use similar mainstream genetics. I consider these cattle breeders to be good folks of good character, and many are friends. I have heard similar statements critical of the general direction within their respective breeds. If someone comes to my farm they can likely see a wide range of quality ranging from hopefully pretty good cows to some that should be culled, and that is what I am working at. I am trying to find what works best on our farm under our management. We are in the early stages of rebuilding the cowherd, so naturally heavy culling is to be expected, just have been surprised along the way at what seems to be working and what hasn't worked as well. It has sometimes ran contrary to what some have suggested. Again not saying anyone was wrong, I just haven't had the same experiences. Cattle have always been a big part of my life, though we are just a small farm in comparison to most. I have the only utmost respect for fellow cattle men and women regardless of size of their outfits or the breeds they run.

Bill

No offense taken to your post Bill, it wasn't directed specifically to you at all and in fact I usually find myself agreeing with a lot of the things you post here. I was just talking in general how there are people out there that have unhealthy obsessions over what some people are doing and seems like they spend more time complaining or smearing others than having productive discussions about things that they can control and make a difference themselves with. Heck we all have flaws in our own programs we are trying to work on improving, there is that saying "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and I don't think there is a breeder out there that can make the claim they don't have a single flaw in any of their animals. We're all working toward improving where we can with the means available to us, it's a never ending battle.

Here's an example of something regarding ET that may be more in line with what you were referring to. I haven't been to a Hereford Junior National since my brother and I stopped showing around 2000 at the end of our junior carrers. My folks usually plan a vacation in the area wherever the show is going to be and will watch a couple days of the show while there so I'm curious to get their take on this but looking at the show results many of the winners were ET calves. We don't follow the show ring crowd or use that to find genetics to breed, we're not breeding show cattle we're breeding seedstock. We've never done ET, in fact when we showed we never got caught up in trying to breed or buy the latest hot show ring sired animal as our program has always been about breeding productive replacement females. That probably put us behind the 8 ball a bit being competitive in the show ring as what is popular in the show ring doesn't always translate to good cattle in the pasture and vice versa. Probably the 2 proudest moments I can think of when we did show was 1 year my brother and I took champion and reserve champion female at our state junior show with bred and owned heifers. It wasn't until we took photos with the judge that he even realized he picked 2 home raised heifers from the same family. The other time was when I took an 8 year old cow/calf pair that I had shown the cow when she was a heifer to our state show and county fair. Typically these cow/calf shows tend to be younger females and when the judges found out my cow was the oldest in the ring they were taken back just how well the cow has been holding up physically when you had her lined up with mostly first calf heifers or mostly cows with just their 2nd or 3rd calf. She wasn't the flashiest cow in the bunch but probably was raising the best calf of any in the ring but it just depends on the judge you get how they pick their cow/calf pairs because they all have their own opinions what they think is their most important factor with their placings. Some still think that cow is a show heifer and will place too much emphasis on her while looking past the job she is doing raising her calf. We always felt that when you exhibited an animal you are trying to bring something that represents your program. That's why I'm curious about the background into all those ET animals that won at the junior national because how many of those are just matings of popular show ring cattle those kids or their family did not raise. We were in 4-H and FFA as kids and these animals were not just show heifers to us, they were projects that you continued beyond the show ring and into pasture years later. Starting to wonder if some of that part of the learning aspect of having a heifer as a project is getting lost these days with those who are more set out to breed or buy high priced show ring winners that maternal traits and the big picture of that heifer's longevity after the show ring are being ignored in the process.

 

[Nesikep]

One thing that bugs me about ET is you can transplant an embryo from a cow that doesn't milk worth a squat into one that milks well, and of course the calf will grow.. Sure, with enough data points you can compensate for that but I think it can skew the numbers.

I just breed cows I like looking at... Never going to get rich off them anyhow so I might as well enjoy them.

 

[Ky hills]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I LOVE this quote, it should be pinned at the top of this forum!

There are some guys out there who are completely obsessed over what other people are doing and get consumed by it. You can't change what someone else is doing but you are 100% accountable for the decisions you make. I think that anyone who makes it a point to smear or talk poorly of others - especially people they have never even meet or spoken to themselves - that they don't think are doing things right says a lot about their character and reputation as well. I'm pretty sure a potential customer doesn't want to come to your place and have to listen to you talk poorly about another operation or person why you are you are trying to sell them your own cattle. They are there to look at your cattle not someone else's because they probably like how you are doing things so why tarnish your own image and reputation by going down that dark path of talking poorly of someone else? Stick to what you know works for you and what your customers want and you'll be better off for it.

I am not sure if you are referring to the tone of my original post or not, but if so please understand that smearing or talking poorly about anyone was not my intention and I sincerely apologize to anyone that has been offended. I was stating personal observations and experiences and putting them in the context of a microcosm of the directions on a larger scale across the industry. I just am not an eloquent speaker/writer. I do very much believe what I have heard from others that singular trait selection such as for carcass quality can likely have an adverse affect on reproductive efficiency of cows. I referenced experiences with bulls and cows from the region as well as ones that were home raised, as we all tend to use similar mainstream genetics. I consider these cattle breeders to be good folks of good character, and many are friends. I have heard similar statements critical of the general direction within their respective breeds. If someone comes to my farm they can likely see a wide range of quality ranging from hopefully pretty good cows to some that should be culled, and that is what I am working at. I am trying to find what works best on our farm under our management. We are in the early stages of rebuilding the cowherd, so naturally heavy culling is to be expected, just have been surprised along the way at what seems to be working and what hasn't worked as well. It has sometimes ran contrary to what some have suggested. Again not saying anyone was wrong, I just haven't had the same experiences. Cattle have always been a big part of my life, though we are just a small farm in comparison to most. I have the only utmost respect for fellow cattle men and women regardless of size of their outfits or the breeds they run.

Bill

No offense taken to your post Bill, it wasn't directed specifically to you at all and in fact I usually find myself agreeing with a lot of the things you post here. I was just talking in general how there are people out there that have unhealthy obsessions over what some people are doing and seems like they spend more time complaining or smearing others than having productive discussions about things that they can control and make a difference themselves with. Heck we all have flaws in our own programs we are trying to work on improving, there is that saying "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and I don't think there is a breeder out there that can make the claim they don't have a single flaw in any of their animals. We're all working toward improving where we can with the means available to us, it's a never ending battle.

Here's an example of something regarding ET that may be more in line with what you were referring to. I haven't been to a Hereford Junior National since my brother and I stopped showing around 2000 at the end of our junior carrers. My folks usually plan a vacation in the area wherever the show is going to be and will watch a couple days of the show while there so I'm curious to get their take on this but looking at the show results many of the winners were ET calves. We don't follow the show ring crowd or use that to find genetics to breed, we're not breeding show cattle we're breeding seedstock. We've never done ET, in fact when we showed we never got caught up in trying to breed or buy the latest hot show ring sired animal as our program has always been about breeding productive replacement females. That probably put us behind the 8 ball a bit being competitive in the show ring as what is popular in the show ring doesn't always translate to good cattle in the pasture and vice versa. Probably the 2 proudest moments I can think of when we did show was 1 year my brother and I took champion and reserve champion female at our state junior show with bred and owned heifers. It wasn't until we took photos with the judge that he even realized he picked 2 home raised heifers from the same family. The other time was when I took an 8 year old cow/calf pair that I had shown the cow when she was a heifer to our state show and county fair. Typically these cow/calf shows tend to be younger females and when the judges found out my cow was the oldest in the ring they were taken back just how well the cow has been holding up physically when you had her lined up with mostly first calf heifers or mostly cows with just their 2nd or 3rd calf. She wasn't the flashiest cow in the bunch but probably was raising the best calf of any in the ring but it just depends on the judge you get how they pick their cow/calf pairs because they all have their own opinions what they think is their most important factor with their placings. Some still think that cow is a show heifer and will place too much emphasis on her while looking past the job she is doing raising her calf. We always felt that when you exhibited an animal you are trying to bring something that represents your program. That's why I'm curious about the background into all those ET animals that won at the junior national because how many of those are just matings of popular show ring cattle those kids or their family did not raise. We were in 4-H and FFA as kids and these animals were not just show heifers to us, they were projects that you continued beyond the show ring and into pasture years later. Starting to wonder if some of that part of the learning aspect of having a heifer as a project is getting lost these days with those who are more set out to breed or buy high priced show ring winners that maternal traits and the big picture of that heifer's longevity after the show ring are being ignored in the process.

Thanks, I appreciate your response. I also appreciate and value your posts as well.

 

[UG]

Years ago I read a variety of articles on the topic of seedstock production. The authors would highlight that producers should be critical of their cattle and cull cattle for inferior fertility, feet, prolapse, etc. Some articles encouraged registered producers to treat their registered cows similar to how commercial cows are raised. The thought being that if your registered cows couldn't calve unassisted, raise a nice calf, and breed back to have another calf in 365 days, they should be gone. After all, if a registered cow required extra feed to breed back or raise an acceptable calf, the seedstock producer was doing a disservice to their bull customer.

Though I literally know hundreds of seedstock producers, it is disappointing to know that very few seedstock producers (even those with white painted fences and four-color ads in their breed magazines) follow this philosophy. Several of them will roll spring calving cows to the fall herd if they fail to breed back for a spring calf. Many will provide their cows with additional feed (i.e. silage, alfalfa, etc.) during breeding season to ensure that a high percentage of their cows conceive. I have even seen cows with feet that resemble snow skis being flushed because she has great "numbers" (EPDs).

If seedstock producer's primary focus is to sell bulls to commercial producers, they shouldn't be too concerned about using the latest and greatest AI sires. They should use proven sires (possibly with less sexy numbers) that have a reputation for siring cattle that will be born unassisted, grow well, and have better than average carcass traits. Over the years I can probably count on one hand the number of prospective commercial bull customers that even cared if the bulls I was selling were out of AI sires.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Back to your original comments. YES, a LOT of traits are antagonistic to other traits. Carcass traits can cause negative other traits. That is why you need BALANCE. Do NOT chase numbers or certain traits.
Like I posted in another thread. Be careful what you wish for!
Numbers are a GREAT TOOL. Use your eyes FIRST.