Winter calvers inhumane

[KMacGinley]

What Wisdom, OnlyBeef. Where I live, January and February are better for calving than March and April, due to the fact that we have a substance known as mud. And I do believe I have seen a cow or two trying to, as you put it, keep her calf alive. Also, a lot of people, especially in the midwest have some corn to plant in April and May.

As for saying anything bad about Mr. Pharo, I just repeated what he said in his update to the newsletter. What I was really curious about was his statement about abnormal presentations, I was wondering if anyone had found this to be true? Or if this was an offshoot of using extreme calving ease bulls, which most of his seem to be.

 

[Beef11]

What I was really curious about was his statement about abnormal presentations, I was wondering if anyone had found this to be true?

That part had me scratching my head as well. I wondered how outside temperatures had an affect on fetal position.

 

[BA]

I wondered about that too. Anybody know if that is a valid argument?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I've read unsubstantiated (aka: gossip) reports in magazines for years that winter calving makes for larger calves due to feeding heavier during the late 2nd trimester and 3rd trimester. These larger calves then have trouble making the last movement into calving position and therefore more malpresentations.

I think its and all it is is bad management. Not knowing what your cows are capable of (if your cows can't have 100 lb calves, don't breed them to 100 lb BW bulls) and not knowing what your feed is (get feed analyses done and feed to the needs of the cow). Just plain old mismanagement. If it were the weather, how do those winter calving purebred operators get low 70lb BW calves?

Sometimes you'll get a bull that throws alot of inconsistent BW calves, and you'll end up with more malpresentations, but then you'd end up with that whether you were calving on grass or in pens in the dead of winter.

Rod

 

[dun]

I've read unsubstantiated (aka: gossip) reports in magazines for years that winter calving makes for larger calves due to feeding heavier during the late 2nd trimester and 3rd trimester. These larger calves then have trouble making the last movement into calving position and therefore more malpresentations.

Its and all it is is bad management. Not knowing what your cows are capable of (if your cows can't have 100 lb calves, don't breed them to 100 lb BW bulls) and not knowing what your feed is (get feed analyses done and feed to the needs of the cow). Just plain old mismanagement. If it were the weather, how do those winter calving purebred operators get low 70lb BW calves?

Sometimes you'll get a bull that throws alot of inconsistent BW calves, and you'll end up with more malpresentations, but then you'd end up with that whether you were calving on grass or in pens in the dead of winter.

Rod

The studys I've seen didn;t have as much to do with the feeding as it did with simple biology. In cold weather the cows blood circulation is routed more to internals and less towrds the extremities, i.e. skin, legs, etc.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

The studys I've seen didn;t have as much to do with the feeding as it did with simple biology. In cold weather the cows blood circulation is routed more to internals and less towrds the extremities, i.e. skin, legs, etc.

If thats the case, then I'd say they aren't bedding the animals down well enough, or they're not selecting the proper animal for the environment (insufficient heart girth). I had bull trouble 2 years ago, so my calves last year ended up being all over the place. My first were dropped on Mar 15, and my last were dropped mid-June with some stragglers into July and August. There is no reduction in birthweights at all: I had between 70lb and 100lb calves throughout the whole mess.

Its hardly scientific evidence, I know, but how do you explain the low 70 lb BW Jan calves I'm seeing in the Angus bull sale catalogs. Would these bulls drop 50 or 60 lb calves if they were dropping in July? I really don't think so.

To convince me that winter calving raises birthweights enough to cause malpresentations, I'd need to see a long term study with the same cows and the same bulls. Give me 3 - 5 years or so of summer calving, and another 3 - 5 years of winter calving, then show me the birthweights and the malpresentation percentage.

Rod

 

[dun]

The studys I've seen didn;t have as much to do with the feeding as it did with simple biology. In cold weather the cows blood circulation is routed more to internals and less towrds the extremities, i.e. skin, legs, etc.

If thats the case, then I'd say they aren't bedding the animals down well enough, or they're not selecting the proper animal for the environment (insufficient heart girth). I had bull trouble 2 years ago, so my calves last year ended up being all over the place. My first were dropped on Mar 15, and my last were dropped mid-June with some stragglers into July and August. There is no reduction in birthweights at all: I had between 70lb and 100lb calves throughout the whole mess.

Its hardly scientific evidence, I know, but how do you explain the low 70 lb BW Jan calves I'm seeing in the Angus bull sale catalogs. Would these bulls drop 50 or 60 lb calves if they were dropping in July? I really don't think so.

To convince me that winter calving raises birthweights enough to cause malpresentations, I'd need to see a long term study with the same cows and the same bulls. Give me 3 - 5 years or so of summer calving, and another 3 - 5 years of winter calving, then show me the birthweights and the malpresentation percentage.

Rod

I was adressing the heavier weight, not the malpresentation

dun

 

[Roadapple]

Did'nt someone do a study on Bw by taking a herd from Montana to Tx. A nd a herd from Tx. to Montana and the herd from Tx. started having heavier calves and the herd from Mt. started having lighter calves due to the temp. change? I know I read that in a couple of articles a few years back. Could be wrong tho. Been before. But I've seen obviously malnourished cows have larger than normal calves and also larger calves in a colder than average winter. Is it because the cow puts everything into the calf or am I wrong for just the second time?

 

[Brandonm2]

The studys I've seen didn;t have as much to do with the feeding as it did with simple biology. In cold weather the cows blood circulation is routed more to internals and less towrds the extremities, i.e. skin, legs, etc.

To convince me that winter calving raises birthweights enough to cause malpresentations, I'd need to see a long term study with the same cows and the same bulls. Give me 3 - 5 years or so of summer calving, and another 3 - 5 years of winter calving, then show me the birthweights and the malpresentation percentage.

Rod

That would be a hard study to do. First you would have to calve out a set of cows in the winter for 3 - 5 years then you would have to change their calving season to summer for 3 - 5 years. To make that scientifically valid would be difficult. IF you were feeding high quantities of mixed ration in the winter and didn't in the summer, the ration would be blamed for the difference instead of the time of year of the calving. IF you fed no ration too either group, malnutrition would be blamed for the difference in the two groups. If you fed both groups the same high energy ration, you would be overfeeding most summer calvers making that exercise of questionable validity and then the age of the cows and differences in management during the different years becomes a questionable factor. The only real good way to do this is to find someone with a lot of cows who calves at both times of the year. This actually sounds like something the MARC could do well. They might already even have the data somewhere.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I was adressing the heavier weight, not the malpresentation

Hmmmm, I thought the point of these last few messages was that winter calving increases malpresentations. I believe the only way to do this would be to increase calf size to the point where it can't get moved around to enter the birth canal properly.

Rod

 

[BRG]

We summer calve and we notice we don't have as many either. But my theory is, we don't hardly ever see anything calve because we leave them alone. When we use to calve in March we were always in amongst them and we noticed if their was a backwards calf right away. I think they still have these backwards calves but they have them on their own and we just don't know it.

 

[movin' on]

Exactly BRG. Calving on grass is a concept that escapes most people. Too many folks like to hold the cows hand and have her breathe into a paper bag while she calves in a confinment somewhere. Very few people are comfortable with letting the cows calve by themselves out on grass where they should calve. As far as the weak arguement that if they're not fighting snow, they're fighting mud.....they obviously don't get that calving on grass means calving on grass...not in a pen in late winter/early spring. As far as having to get the calves "big enough" to sell in the fall. How about calving later and using all the feed you would have fed to the cows last winter to feed the calves until after all the huge calf runs of October and November are done and the demand goes back up? I know that's not how grandpa did it but times are changing.

 

[AngusLimoX]

Exactly BRG. Calving on grass is a concept that escapes most people. Too many folks like to hold the cows hand and have her breathe into a paper bag while she calves in a confinment somewhere. Very few people are comfortable with letting the cows calve by themselves out on grass where they should calve. As far as the weak arguement that if they're not fighting snow, they're fighting mud.....they obviously don't get that calving on grass means calving on grass...not in a pen in late winter/early spring. As far as having to get the calves "big enough" to sell in the fall. How about calving later and using all the feed you would have fed to the cows last winter to feed the calves until after all the huge calf runs of October and November are done and the demand goes back up? I know that's not how grandpa did it but times are changing.

So where are calf prices strong right now? Or last month?

And I mean like sept oct strong.

We all have climate, soil, local market reasons for when we calve. With corn going the way it is am glad I have a few months weight on them come fall more than ever.

The original discussion was humane treatment - calving in the cold may be more humane than other seasons in a lot of locales.

Maybe Kit is going to come out against dehorning cattle, castrating and branding next. What about the stress of forced weaning?

I am very disappointed to say the least.

 

[KMacGinley]

Exactly BRG. Calving on grass is a concept that escapes most people. Too many folks like to hold the cows hand and have her breathe into a paper bag while she calves in a confinment somewhere. Very few people are comfortable with letting the cows calve by themselves out on grass where they should calve. As far as the weak arguement that if they're not fighting snow, they're fighting mud.....they obviously don't get that calving on grass means calving on grass...not in a pen in late winter/early spring. As far as having to get the calves "big enough" to sell in the fall. How about calving later and using all the feed you would have fed to the cows last winter to feed the calves until after all the huge calf runs of October and November are done and the demand goes back up? I know that's not how grandpa did it but times are changing.

The Weak Argument?


You should drop by here about Thursday after we get a few days of 45 degree weather, wear your sneakers and walk through my cows and let me know then about the Weak argument. I will take frozen ground and cold over mud for newborns any day.

 

[IL Rancher]

I used to start calving around Feb1st with the hiefers and started the cows up a month later. The mud in many years has been just as bad in Feb than it has been in March.. For us, around here at least, the mud starts giving up in April usually with green grass growing well by may 1st. But we have sand hills that we can calf in for April and than May we have other sandy fields that we can calf in... This year has been abnormal in that the ground stayed frozed for all of Feb but there have been years in which your boots would get ripped right off walking in a field on Valentines day. So much of this is going to depend on 1) how much ground your calves are going to born on. Is it one cow for every 8 acres or is it 8 cows per acre or something in between? Real dense calving I would probably prefer to do it in pens on frozen ground but for MY situation and set up here I prefer the warmer spring weather.. IF for no other reason that I get a lot more daylight hours in April and May than I did in Feb and March.. 2) What level of mangement you want to do (watching them all the time, bedding and all of that stuff) and 3) What type of ground you are on. Flat and clay, hilly and sandy? something else?

As far as scours and disease.. Well, the best thing for us, be it winter or spring calving is to keep those newborns being born on fresh ground and to keep a tight calving interval so youdon't have calves 70 days younger than the herd being exposed to bugs that the older calves are carrying.

 

[KMacGinley]

Sand is nice if you got it. I guess that is why it is a little dangerous or foolish to make a blanket statement that supposedly applies to everyone.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

depends on the area even if the angus do outsell in some area's in the south they wont out perform the brangus. due to the intense heat.course that maybe why their brangus

I was referring to feeder calves headed to the feedyard ;-)

• Brood cows are a whole other ballgame. If you can figure out how to get straight angus to be heat tolerant the brangus

would go the way of the longhorn.

thats why they added brahman so they can have the best of both worlds they may sacrafice a little here. to get more there. the calves do better the momas milk better

 

[novatech]

I just read an article that said that 30% of the cattle in the US had brahman influance. I don't know how true that is, But I do know there are a lot of them. There are more benefits than just heat tolerance.

 

[S.R.R.]

Winter calving was started with the thought that calves would be larger come fall and thous prices better.
While not wrong at the time this practice has long since lost its appeal.!!
We are now faced with the fact that feeding a cow grain ect. through winter and into the first couple months of postpartum means you are losing money meant for your pocket!! YES it worked in the old days but now it is a fools practice. We no longer have the cheap grain and hay of the past.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Another blanket statement

feeding a cow grain ect. through winter and into the first couple months of postpartum means you are losing money meant for your pocket!

Calving in the winter does not mean feeding grain. I have been calving late Jan thru late March for many years, without feeding COWS grain or creep feeding calves, and getting them bred back for a 60 day calving season each year. Calves are old enough to wean in September which gives the cows enough time on grass to get into great condition for winter.
Different managements for different people/locations.