Winter calvers inhumane

[Badlands]

Thanks DiamondS,

How did you determine the original females to go into the "summer herd"?

And why did you decrease BW in the bulls?

Badlands

 

[Beef11]

IF you change your calving season wouldn't you change when you sell your calves as well? Who says you still have to sell the same week.

 

[backhoeboogie]

In defense of Pharo, the Angus Journal HAS published some articles

I don't live in Angus country. Don't give a rats what the Angus Journal folks push in their part of the country.

What we need is a video of what Angus do when the temperature gets above 100 degrees day after day. Then perhaps they'd understand. Their postion would change in a heartbeat.

I still have two angus cows. They are fall calvers. Otherwise they would have been shipped.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

How did you determine the original females to go into the "summer herd"?

And why did you decrease BW in the bulls?

All the animals went into the summer herd, except for my heifers. Therein lies the only potential flaw with my trial: no control group in the same year. Having said that, I'd never had 3 years in a row before that with a 6% loss rate, so it wasn't the year. And my loss of lbs in the spring wasn't from the bull, since I had my heifers' calves all sitting about 75 lbs heavier.

As for the bull, I wasn't sure about those new cows I had. They'd come bred, and I'd pen calved them in May the previous year. Most of their calves were little 70 and 80 lb midget calves. I wasn't worried about my pen calvers. I cull heavy and any cow that can't calve 100lbs unassisted, jump up, and mother like crazy goes away. So I decided to drop BW a hair, just in case those range cows couldn't do the same with a heavy calf.

I had a few more thoughts yesterday that I didn't have time to get put down.

The area that I live in is normally very wet in May. We often get hit with wet snows and cold rain during those months. June is usually pleasant, but not always. I found my May calves ended up with alot of pneumonia and scours that first year. Junes calves seemed to be ok from my records, so I suspect June was pleasant. I vaccinated for scours before the next season, and it seemed to help, but I still treated a couple more cases of pneumonia in the next two years than is my norm (I rarely treat more than 1 or 2 in 50). The Feb/Mar calves seem to have a little more weathering ability when the cold rains hit. They should, as they've got more weight on them.

And now an observation that may very well fall into the category of "talking myself into it". When those Feb/Mar calves hit grass, they start grazing pretty good and make use of the forage. While I don't believe it gives them a weight gain advantage, I certainly believe it helps their dams out during the early months of grazing, when the grass is mostly water.

Rod

 

[Badlands]

Rod,

Just so you know, I kind of consider May as "summer calving". Not real interested in the June thing at all. Like you said, by the time those calves are able to eat grass, it is tough on them. Maybe by some definitions, I am still an "early calver".

All the animals went into the summer herd, except for my heifers. Therein lies the only potential flaw with my trial: no control group in the same year. Having said that, I'd never had 3 years in a row before that with a 6% loss rate, so it wasn't the year. And my loss of lbs in the spring wasn't from the bull, since I had my heifers' calves all sitting about 75 lbs heavier.

I understand that you are not able to make exact comparisons, no big worries about that.

As for the bull, I wasn't sure about those new cows I had. They'd come bred, and I'd pen calved them in May the previous year. Most of their calves were little 70 and 80 lb midget calves. I wasn't worried about my pen calvers. I cull heavy and any cow that can't calve 100lbs unassisted, jump up, and mother like crazy goes away. So I decided to drop BW a hair, just in case those range cows couldn't do the same with a heavy calf.

OK, now here is where you are losing me. What does "new cows" mean?

I had a few more thoughts yesterday that I didn't have time to get put down.

The area that I live in is normally very wet in May. We often get hit with wet snows and cold rain during those months. June is usually pleasant, but not always. I found my May calves ended up with alot of pneumonia and scours that first year. Junes calves seemed to be ok from my records, so I suspect June was pleasant. I vaccinated for scours before the next season, and it seemed to help, but I still treated a couple more cases of pneumonia in the next two years than is my norm (I rarely treat more than 1 or 2 in 50). The Feb/Mar calves seem to have a little more weathering ability when the cold rains hit. They should, as they've got more weight on them.

Yes, fighting rain can be just as bad as fighting snow. It is something I didn't realize until I moved 2,200 miles from home.

And now an observation that may very well fall into the category of "talking myself into it". When those Feb/Mar calves hit grass, they start grazing pretty good and make use of the forage. While I don't believe it gives them a weight gain advantage, I certainly believe it helps their dams out during the early months of grazing, when the grass is mostly water.

This would sure depend on each ranch's forage. I understand your point.

Thanks Rod.

I appreciate you hanging in with my questions.

Badlands

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

OK, now here is where you are losing me. What does "new cows" mean?

The "new to me" southern Alberta cows that I'd bought. They were a mix of Angus cows from 3 yrs to 7 or 8 yrs. I pen calved them the first year I owned them, and it was a miserable experience. Mean, nasty animals. I like a momma cow to have some fight in her when it comes to protecting her calf, but not like these ones. I had one come across a 200 yard wide pen and hit the fence I was standing beside. Tagging and bagging was just plain dangerous. It was one of the reasons I decided to try grass calving, as I hoped that being in a more familiar circumstances and having more room would help with their attitude problems.

Rod

 

[IL Rancher]

Pasture calving just gave them more room to build up a head of steam as they tried to run you down probably :shock: :lol: ..

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Pasture calving just gave them more room to build up a head of steam as they tried to run you down probably :shock: :lol: ..

:lol: :lol: Not far from the truth, although I was able to more easily gather cow and calf together, and herd them back into the handling area for tagging. It was during these years that I realized that I did need a horse again for cattle handling in pastures. The quad was convenient, but sitting down low like that wasn't real great. It was especially evident when one of the crazies turned on me and tore a fender off :lol: It was reminiscent of those little short legged Aberdeen Angus cows that a neighbor (and I for brief while) owned. They'd come out of bushes and draws and ambush the horse.

Rod

 

[Badlands]

Rod,

Given what you have said about the cows you bought, is it really fair to compare them to cows you raised yourself for several generations?

Comparing systems across years with the same genetics is one thing, but now you have introduced another thing to the mix and it sounds like the cattle might have have some problems.

Badlands

 

[herefor-hereford]

It is just Kit promting his program, and his program calves in the spring. If people didn't take care of their cows he would have a point. He doesn't have a point so it is only hogwash that the PETA type people will jump on. Shame on Kit.

 

[IL Rancher]

Rod.. I have flashbacks to my second spring calving... Must have been May as we were moving cows out of the calving pasture into a grazing pasture.. Found this calf, which I thought was all alone.. Got off the quad, walked over to her because she was behind some brambles between an old fenceline and a new one... All of sudden I saw a mass of black with two white eyeballs come flying at me... She witch... I still don't know where she came from, I had been watching for all calving season because she gave me grief the first one too... She was a hunter tooo.. Key word... WAS.

I have had a few cows decided to play with the quads bumper... Believe it or not the, Quad has usually won... I have also had to race a cow on my Quad after I tried to tag her calf... She was also a nut job that I had to worry about. 1st year okay, 2nd year nut job... 3rd year...hamburger.

 

[Beef11]

I don't live in Angus country. Don't give a rats what the Angus Journal folks push in their part of the country.

What we need is a video of what Angus do when the temperature gets above 100 degrees day after day. Then perhaps they'd understand. Their postion would change in a heartbeat.

I still have two angus cows. They are fall calvers. Otherwise they would have been shipped.

Don't forget that angus is king in your Country. Cattle in your part of the country are fed alongside calves from "Angus country" and they are expected to compete. Angus calves will outsell brangus calves. Kit later talked about calving in the south and said that fall calving isn't a bad way to go.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Given what you have said about the cows you bought, is it really fair to compare them to cows you raised yourself for several generations?

Comparing systems across years with the same genetics is one thing, but now you have introduced another thing to the mix and it sounds like the cattle might have have some problems.

The "new" cattle were certainly a variable, however when I pen calved them in the first year, I had 0% loss rate on them and they raised decent calves, otherwise they wouldn't have been here for year 2. They may have been mean, but they were good mothers. Also, a few of those mean old witches did calm down enough to be proper cows and stuck around for quite a few years of pen calving.

Also remember that half of the experiment were my own old cattle, all of whom were excellent mother cows and I wasn't real concerned about having them calve out on grass. Around here, if you lose a calf, you leave on the next trailer outta town.

Rod

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I don't live in Angus country. Don't give a rats what the Angus Journal folks push in their part of the country.

What we need is a video of what Angus do when the temperature gets above 100 degrees day after day. Then perhaps they'd understand. Their postion would change in a heartbeat.

I still have two angus cows. They are fall calvers. Otherwise they would have been shipped.

Don't forget that angus is king in your Country. Cattle in your part of the country are fed alongside calves from "Angus country" and they are expected to compete. Angus calves will outsell brangus calves. Kit later talked about calving in the south and said that fall calving isn't a bad way to go.

depends on the area even if the angus do outsell in some area's in the south they wont out perform the brangus. due to the intense heat.course that maybe why their brangus ;-)

 

[Badlands]

Thanks, DiamondS, I appreciate your insight.

Badlands

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Sure thing, but I don't think my insight means much. Just because something does (or doesn't) work for me in my area doesn't mean it won't work for the next guy. I think to many cattle producers (not just on the forums either) forget that.

Rod

 

[Beef11]

depends on the area even if the angus do outsell in some area's in the south they wont out perform the brangus. due to the intense heat.course that maybe why their brangus

I was referring to feeder calves headed to the feedyard ;-) Brood cows are a whole other ballgame. If you can figure out how to get straight angus to be heat tolerant the brangus would go the way of the longhorn.

 

[AngusLimoX]

Where are we when people in our industry who are set up to lead start referring to other folks practices as "inhumane". Same class of human as the R-culters who jumped in bed with PETA.

Maybe KP has received a little too much attention and PETA and the vegans have decided to make some ground using his new "philosophies".

I work way too hard and care way too much for my livestock to have this attention seeking manipulator make garbage statements like this.

 

[redrock]

so do you want to breed with a bull that was born in january or in april. Some of us are crop farmers and april calving doesn't fit in. we are in michigan and calving works out better than in april. less sickness by far.

 

[ONLY-BEEF]

Kit Pharo said in his newsletter that Winter calvers were inhumane to their Cows and calves. What do you all think?

Have ya been out in the cold watchen yur cows do their dang best ta keep their fresh calf alive??

Ifen you aint keep yur trap shut about mister Kit Pharo!

Inhumane aint the kind a turm I,d use on it, but agen nature and just plain dumb comes ta mind.