Wildlife depredation/ federal agencies and my frustration

[bball]

The price they pay is $1.69 per head a month. That is after a $.30 raise in 2015. The BLMs revenue from grazing in 2014 was $12.1 million, it cost the BLM $32.8 million to administer the grazing. Combined with the Forest Service revenue from grazing was $18.5 million in 2014, adminstrative costs exceeded $40 million. That means tax payers are paying $20 million a year for those who graze on public lands. In 2014 the BLM spent $89.2 million on range improvements as well on these public lands that are being grazed. These prices need to be raised to break out of the $20 million dollar loss endured by these agencies. Public land grazing should at least pay for Itself and not leave a shortfall. Let alone $89.2 million in improvements they didn't pay for on the land they are grazing.

The reason so many people are against federal agencies is because of this. I have no idea what is involved. But what I do know is that the federal government cannot possibly manage ANYTHING efficiently. I do no believe our government was designed to have all these agencies administering these huge budgets. When there is no incentive for things being run better, things will not be run better.

Schools, VA, SS, Medicare, the list goes on. This isn't a shot at BLM, it's just a fact of life, and is the main reason behind people wanting control turned over to the states. The states wouldn't be perfect either, but in at lease some cases they could do a better job financially. TN has a balanced budget by state constitution mandate. The federal government does not even have a budget, and if they did it wouldn't be balanced.

Well said!

 

[greybeard]

Sounds like BLM administrative budget and expenditures need to be cut $20 million.

 

[bball]

So which one is it, they are underfunded and grazing rights are too cheap, or they return $4 for every dollar of cost?

Wildfire management and fears of development are your reasons for wanting more state control and less federal control?

You came on here wanting to hear the other side. But every time somebody tells you the other side you poopoo whatever is said.

That's the definition of a troll. You don't want conversation, you want an echo chamber.

On grazing they loose over $40 million a year, overall they return $4 for every $1 spent. Grazing should pay its part and they shouldn't be losing money on it. Just want them to break even on it, they don't need to profit but grazing shouldn't be costing every American money for a few that are benefiting financially from it. That's a welfare form of farming, subsidizing your personal business with tax dollars. I'm listening to your side but I think you are just as set in your view and don't consider the other side either.

But the subsidies are fine when used for corn, beans and wheat???? Most of the farming in this country is subsidized, welfare farming. Its the knuckleheads like most of us on this board that wont take the subsidies that are the minority. Its why most folks on here are for minimal govt involvement . You keep asking for facts....well most of us SEE the facts everyday all around us, with just exactly how screwed up this country has become at the hands of BIG govt and all its agencies and sneaky backroom dealing that continually screws the little guy. Spread your agenda elsewhere please and thank you.

 

[Oneye]

bball I agree our country has become a mess in a lot of ways it really has and too much government involvement is not a good thing, but some is necessary. I do want them to make sure my food and water is safe and that large corporations aren't using and abusing the system we have and the things we all need to survive. There has to be some sort of control over pollution and ruining our resources, although yes it can become overbearing when regulation is taken too far. A large corporation can also become a real burden on the people of allowed to go unregulated too.

But let me ask you this, what other time would you really rather live in than now? We complain and hear from our media how terrible it is and how our country is going down the drain, yet we are still the most powerful, prosperous country in the world. Our economy is strong, our military is the strongest, anything we want is a click away. We live in comfort now more than any generation ever has. We have technology that makes life easier and better than ever. We have medical advances that have been world changing. We can sit here and talk about how we don't want to change, or look at what change has brought us. Our country is not in the bleak condition so many like to cry crisis with. Have some trends and liberal viewpoints been brought far over the line? Absolutely, I agree with you. But don't act like we live in a country that has fallen apart and is down the tubes. The news has made it sound that way our whole lives. I still love a decent life, have more than I actually need, and love modern technology and wouldn't want to live Ina different era. Is our world crazy? Yes, but it is because both the right and left have an agenda and none of us can agree to come to the middle and admit neither side is completely right.

 

[SJB]

I don't have sides or find fault. I'm a problem solver. It's basically what I do for a living.

The solution seems pretty simple to me. It's either an administrative problem where the solution would be to bring in different managers with the correct skill sets and motivations (just like any private company would do)

Or

Let oil and gas subsidize grazing.

Either way, throwing more money at corporate style entities of that size is a proven loser.

As to the shape of our country, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[CottageFarm]

If you truly do live in Utah and own cattle, your stance on BLM grazing lands is illogical.
On the vast majority of BLM lands youre looking at a stocking rate of 100-150 acres per animal. It is generally dry, native grasses, and completely unimproved land. Its rangeland! If they were privately held lands, they wouldnt be worth anymore than what is being paid for them now. You say you want to make it a break-even proposition for the BLM because the taxpayers are getting screwed otherwise. Well, maybe the BLM, like any other for-profit entity, needs to learn how to operate within a lower budget. Most businesses cannot simply raise the price of their goods/services just because they want to make more money. Their customers will simply go elsewhere if the prices are too high. They must learn to be smarter about how they use the resources available to them. The govt is unwilling to ever do that.

You are whining about how a rancher utilizes his own land regarding his alfalfa field. Sorry, its his land to do with as he pleases. If he doesnt like having deer eat his crop, he is within his rights to remove them in a manner prescribed by law. If you personally dont like it, tough. Go buy your own land and feed the deer. You dont have to like it, its not your land. Manage yours as you please, too. Nobody else has to like it but you.

YOur flipping back and forth between BLM and NFS lands, like they are somehow similar or analogous. Again, if you live in Utah, you should know full well that they are not. Their charters are completely different from each other, as are their uses. While there are some NFS lands that are grazed, it is a completely different situation and program. FYI for those who havent spent much time in the West, if those deer are coming down from the mountains for winter feeding, its pretty darn unlikey they are anywhere near actual BLM lands. (I am trying to remember if Ive ever seen a tree, other than next to the rare stream, on BLM lands.)

If you dont like that there are those who feel the govt has overstepped and overreached in their attempts to control everything in our lives, TOUGH SH**!!! We dont happen to like that you want them to control every drop of water in the country, thats tough for us, but youre entitled to your opinions as much as we are. Get over it.

You came here looking for support for your positions, and didnt find it. You did not come here for intelligent debate, as you resorted to name calling and condescension when challenged.

Im not even go to start on the EPA, and the ecomonic damages they have caused in this country, most of which are based on an ideology, not well researched science. Again, you dont want a real debate, you want a cheering squad...or as someone else put it...an echo chamber

 

[M-5]

bball I agree our country has become a mess in a lot of ways it really has and too much government involvement is not a good thing, but some is necessary. I do want them to make sure my food and water is safe and that large corporations aren't using and abusing the system we have and the things we all need to survive. There has to be some sort of control over pollution and ruining our resources, although yes it can become overbearing when regulation is taken too far. A large corporation can also become a real burden on the people of allowed to go unregulated too.

But let me ask you this, what other time would you really rather live in than now? We complain and hear from our media how terrible it is and how our country is going down the drain, yet we are still the most powerful, prosperous country in the world. Our economy is strong,if you think printing money artificially inflate the economy is strong our military is the strongest,hundreds of thousands cut from military anything we want is a click away. convenience has it price. Look at the society and lost morals and lack of family and murder rates We live in comfort now more than any generation ever has.yes the fortresses that are being built today are required because generation of technology ,drug , rape, murder and theft. We have technology that makes life easier and better than ever. We have medical advances that have been world changing.the big pharma is making billions to keep the people addicted to them and everyone has a disability We can sit here and talk about how we don't want to change, or look at what change has brought us. Our country is not in the bleak condition so many like to cry crisis with. look at something other than what the government hands out and you can see the real world Have some trends and liberal viewpoints been brought far over the line? Absolutely, I agree with you. But don't act like we live in a country that has fallen apart and is down the tubes. The news has made it sound that way our whole lives. I still love a decent life, have more than I actually need, and love modern technology and wouldn't want to live Ina different era. Is our world crazy? Yes, but it is because both the right and left have an agenda and none of us can agree to come to the middle and admit neither side is completely right.

 

[Deepsouth]

Our national defense budget is $610 billion, that should put things into perspective as to how much as an agency managing million of acres of land is given. And yes they return $4 for every $1 they are given to spend. They are some of the hardest working dollars in the federal budget and account for less than 1% of our nations budget. Public land grazing causing an administrative loss of over $40 million a year......... why do tax payers have to pay for private individuals businesses they profit from? My point is since when is any government program that effective in returning revenue? Sportsmen contribute $646 billion to the economy every year and yet conservation and improvements of the places that cause all that revenue are given less than 1% of our nations budget. Does it seem wise to spend less than 1% of our budget on such an effective industry and money making agency? The BLM employ's over 10,000 people and manages over 245 million surface area of land. With such a relatively small budget in our nation they do a decent job. Much of that money gets spent on fighting wildfires. By having to spend more than half their annual budget on just wildfires it further backlogs projects they want to complete to improve the lands they manage. Yes our parks and federal land management agencies are not given the tools they need to succeed by congress and our representatives. Congress needs to treat wildfires as the national disasters they are and fund them appropriately. It should not be borrowed from the FS and BLM's annual budgets that are already strained to fight what is a natural disaster.

Thank you for bringing this problem to my attention. I will contact my congressman today and ask him to look into cutting the Beurau of Land Management's budget.

 

[Oneye]

If you truly do live in Utah and own cattle, your stance on BLM grazing lands is illogical.
On the vast majority of BLM lands youre looking at a stocking rate of 100-150 acres per animal. It is generally dry, native grasses, and completely unimproved land. Its rangeland! If they were privately held lands, they wouldnt be worth anymore than what is being paid for them now. You say you want to make it a break-even proposition for the BLM because the taxpayers are getting screwed otherwise. Well, maybe the BLM, like any other for-profit entity, needs to learn how to operate within a lower budget. Most businesses cannot simply raise the price of their goods/services just because they want to make more money. Their customers will simply go elsewhere if the prices are too high. They must learn to be smarter about how they use the resources available to them. The govt is unwilling to ever do that.

You are whining about how a rancher utilizes his own land regarding his alfalfa field. Sorry, its his land to do with as he pleases. If he doesnt like having deer eat his crop, he is within his rights to remove them in a manner prescribed by law. If you personally dont like it, tough. Go buy your own land and feed the deer. You dont have to like it, its not your land. Manage yours as you please, too. Nobody else has to like it but you.

YOur flipping back and forth between BLM and NFS lands, like they are somehow similar or analogous. Again, if you live in Utah, you should know full well that they are not. Their charters are completely different from each other, as are their uses. While there are some NFS lands that are grazed, it is a completely different situation and program. FYI for those who havent spent much time in the West, if those deer are coming down from the mountains for winter feeding, its pretty darn unlikey they are anywhere near actual BLM lands. (I am trying to remember if Ive ever seen a tree, other than next to the rare stream, on BLM lands.)

If you dont like that there are those who feel the govt has overstepped and overreached in their attempts to control everything in our lives, TOUGH SH**!!! We dont happen to like that you want them to control every drop of water in the country, thats tough for us, but youre entitled to your opinions as much as we are. Get over it.

You came here looking for support for your positions, and didnt find it. You did not come here for intelligent debate, as you resorted to name calling and condescension when challenged.

Im not even go to start on the EPA, and the ecomonic damages they have caused in this country, most of which are based on an ideology, not well researched science. Again, you dont want a real debate, you want a cheering squad...or as someone else put it...an echo chamber

Actually you are wrong on many accounts. Very, very few FS lands aren't grazed in my state and nearly all the deer winter on BLM grounds. Don't believe me call the DWR and ask what lands a mule deer lives on primarily during the winter months. By state law the individual did not follow the law with what he did. And I'll be done here at this point. Have a good life being stuck in the past and hoping we can return to the days that will never be seen again because the world has moved on.

 

[Bestoutwest]

You're a troll because you come on here just to push your agenda.
Your type won't be happy till the whole county is compleatly 180° from what made it great.
It's all about control, liberals can't stand individual rights and freedom. The government has to know all, control all, and dictate all.

I'm for personal freedom, but we do need some government. Who's going to pave the roads? Who will maintain them? Jail the felons? Protect us from enemies, foriegn and domestic?

The EPA is a necessary evil when people and corporations have no respect for anyone else and pour their waste directly into rivers, lakes and streams. Do you want your cattle drinking water in it b/c the guy above is free to do whatever he wants so he pours his used motor oil in it?

There's a give and take that's needed. Lately it feels as if there's been a bit too much take.

 

[Muddy]

I wondered if Oneye is one of Linda's relatives....perhaps a sister?

 

[greybeard]

Have a good life being stuck in the past and hoping we can return to the days that will never be seen again because the world has moved on.

And there ya have it folks, one of Horrible Harry and Pitiful Peloski's "progressives".

 

[Jogeephus]

Have a good life being stuck in the past and hoping we can return to the days that will never be seen again because the world has moved on.

And there ya have it folks, one of Horrible Harry and Pitiful Peloski's "progressives".

I don't know, I may be wrong, just trying to think progressively here but I crunched some numbers and that comes to only 1 BLM employee for every 165 head of cattle. Typically, I think one person can manage 200 cattle with some occasional help so this ratio isn't really that far off. After all, fixing fence, drilling seed, feeding and gathering hay for 165 head should keep one person busy so these public servants must be pretty busy caring for the cows and all. Of course I know an 80 year old woman who cares for 800 cows with the help of only one person but I think she is the exception and from another era in time. But caring for 165 cows will definitely keep one person busy.

 

[Oneye]

Have a good life being stuck in the past and hoping we can return to the days that will never be seen again because the world has moved on.

And there ya have it folks, one of Horrible Harry and Pitiful Peloski's "progressives".

I don't know, I may be wrong, just trying to think progressively here but I crunched some numbers and that comes to only 1 BLM employee for every 165 head of cattle. Typically, I think one person can manage 200 cattle with some occasional help so this ratio isn't really that far off. After all, fixing fence, drilling seed, feeding and gathering hay for 165 head should keep one person busy so these public servants must be pretty busy caring for the cows and all. Of course I know an 80 year old woman who cares for 800 cows with the help of only one person but I think she is the exception and from another era in time. But caring for 165 cows will definitely keep one person busy.

You're right. Dealing with oil and gas leases,mining leases,wildfires, range improvement projects on millions of acres,land exchanges,criminals, enforcement of the law, lawsuits, etc. must take no amount of time right? Maybe start thinking things outside of a narrow view.

 

[Jogeephus]

Maybe start thinking things outside of a narrow view.

Narrow view? I'm puzzled. It was YOU who was implying the the cattlemen needed to pay above the going rate for cattle leases to fund this entire bureaucracy.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Maybe if the government hired folks that knew how to manage oil and gas leases to handle those things it wouldn't be as big a problem. May if they hired foresters to manage the forest it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe if they hired ranchers to handle grazing it wouldn't be a problem. The biggest requirement should be to let those people do there job without a political agenda controlling them.

 

[greybeard]

You mean like the obvious political agenda that started and is still running thru this thread?

 

[Commercialfarmer]

It's obvious that the burden should be moved to the state.

Kansas came up with a way for people to enjoy millions of acres of privately held and productive land for outdoor activities. It's called the walk in hunting program, a win win. Oklahoma is adopting something similar in the upcoming year or so.

Oneye, where do you point to the Constitutional authority of the federal government to hold land within the boundary of a state.

I'll give you a hint about trying to persuade people free of charge.... You don't start with calling them uneducated and ignorant. But either way, you're still sucking hind tit in the discussion.

 

[Oneye]

It's obvious that the burden should be moved to the state.

Kansas came up with a way for people to enjoy millions of acres of privately held and productive land for outdoor activities. It's called the walk in hunting program, a win win. Oklahoma is adopting something similar in the upcoming year or so.

Oneye, where do you point to the Constitutional authority of the federal government to hold land within the boundary of a state.

I'll give you a hint about trying to persuade people free of charge.... You don't start with calling them uneducated and ignorant. But either way, you're still sucking hind tit in the discussion.

To enter into statehood the states agreed to forfeit the land not claimed within their boundaries to the federal government. That is what was agreed to and that is how it is. To take the land from the American people which is held in trust by the federal government and owned by all of us is nothing more than theivary.

Also, Utah already has a Walk-in-access program and has for years. Federal lands are crucial to wildlife in western states and the landscapes are much more fragile and dry. The state could not pay for access to enough hunting land to keep hunting in Western states the economic driver it currently is. Nation parks and monuments provide billions of dollars to states economies every year. Mining, oil and gas, and grazing is resulted for multiple use and to not damage the landscape. The current system is working okay, with better policies and improvements it could work a lot better.