Why you need to buy quality bulls.

[I luv herfrds]

Good subject Knersie.
the most operative word is "AFFORD". Can we afford a $20,000.00 bull? No. We try to buy a good bull for what we can afford.
Next spring's calving will being showing us what we got for the money on 2 bulls.

 

[KNERSIE]

Good subject Knersie.
the most operative word is "AFFORD". Can we afford a $20,000.00 bull? No. We try to buy a good bull for what we can afford.
Next spring's calving will being showing us what we got for the money on 2 bulls.

I'm not in the USA, but I am sure you don't need to spend $20000 on a bull, I've seen some very handy bulls sell for $2000 and less, you just need to do your homework and go and look at the bull's dam and also educate yourself on what you really do need and how to identify them.

This brings up another interesting topic, how much can you pay for a herd bull? The oldtimers said you can pay the price of 6 weaners for a bull, by modern day standards in the USA it equates to $2500-$3000, right?

 

[hillsdown]

Knersie I think with overhead costs and increased operating costs that it is considerably less than that now, probably most won't want to pay over $1500.00 per bull for 50 head.

The numbers just don't crunch, even if you get 5 cents a pound more for your new calf crop it will be hard to break even. Maybe if you plan on using the bull for 5 years it will work.

I am need of a new clean up bull for my registered stock and I am really going to have to go over the numbers and do some serious crunching. I am thinking anything over $4-5 and it won't work. I will get 2 years out of him at best.

 

[KNERSIE]

I am need of a new clean up bull for my registered stock and I am really going to have to go over the numbers and do some serious crunching. I am thinking anything over $4-5 and it won't work. I will get 2 years out of him at best.

Why not raise one of your own?

 

[Alan]

I am need of a new clean up bull for my registered stock and I am really going to have to go over the numbers and do some serious crunching. I am thinking anything over $4-5 and it won't work. I will get 2 years out of him at best.

Why not raise one of your own?

You gave me this advice a couple of years ago, and yes it's the way to go. I have a pretty decent cleanup bull from an AI breeding from 2 yrs ago. My cost is the same as a heifer or steer to raise, I'll use him for 2 years and sell him. Much cheaper then buying an unknown. Meaning when buying a bull, his EPD's and Phenotype may be good, but won't last on grass, or he is a knucklhead, etc. Also mine is better than most bulls I see around my area.

Alan

 

[I luv herfrds]

Now speaking just for the hubby and myself, not for anyone else. We could go as high as $3500 to $4000 on our next bull. With the expenses and a land debt $2000 to $2500 was pushing it for us. When we were pretty much broke and paying doctor bills the highest we could go was $1800.
We normally buy a bull after we sell our calf crop in October.

 

[hillsdown]

I am need of a new clean up bull for my registered stock and I am really going to have to go over the numbers and do some serious crunching. I am thinking anything over $4-5 and it won't work. I will get 2 years out of him at best.

Why not raise one of your own?

I have been doing that (trying to do it) but all of my prospected AI cows gave me heifer's this year and the ones that gave me bulls are related to my previous bulls. Next year I am hoping for at least one bull calf out of the group of AI sires I would like to use as a clean up bull and that will be my future herd bull. But for now I am stuck with buying one for 2010. Which is another conundrum as we have been completely closed for the last 5 years. I would really like to buy from a closed herd that mostly AI's.

 

[Brandonm22]

I delivered a bull last week to a small, but quality cowherd. The calves were absolutely horrible, no muscle, no width, no growth, poor structure, I asked the guy about them and he said that two years ago he didn't want to spend the money to buy a good bull so he bought a non-castrated steer from his son in law who bought some calves as a tax break. He will loose more money on that single calf crop than what he would have paid for a young bull from me, sadly that fornicating steer has another calf crop due shortly.

Exactly, (using $US numbers) if you have 25 cows and you use a bull for 3 years......and bull A's calves wean 25 pounds more at weaning and bring 2 cents more per pound in a $1 a pound market than bull B's calves....then Bull A generates $2700 more than Bull B. That is basic math and provable ten ways from sunday and if you keep heifers the numbers can get ridiculous over the life of those cows; but there are still commercial guys all over the place who pay $600-1000 for a bull who will get beat by 70-100 lbs a calf and 9 cents a lb by quality bulls all day long. Then when they inevitably sell out after losing money for years and years and year they all say "You just can't make money in cows".

 

[Workinonit Farm]

it is everywhere most guys around here think if they have bought a bull for $1000 they have pd an exorbitant amount, they like the $.50 pr lb bulls at the sale barn better :cowboy:
their motto: all bulls are the same as long as he puts a calf on the ground

:nod: :nod:

I had to look where your avatar would be just to check and see if you were from Va. :lol: :lol2:

I know several folks who have uttered those very words. One of which is a friend of mine. And year after year I hear the same thing from this guy...."your calves are growing good, mine ain't doing shiet!" Then when we leave the sale...."How come yours always bring more than mine?" Now I'm not saying that I have top-notch bull genetics or the best doing calves that ever hit the ground but I use the best that I can afford and the cows have improved over the years as well....thanks to record-keeping.

Anyhow, the way I look at it, the bull is have the crop, the cow is half the calf.

Katherine

 

[SRBeef]

duplicate post

 

[SRBeef]

Beautiful little guy - thanks for sharing.
I know people will argue to economics of it in the longrun, but for anybody out there who isn't happy with the quality of bull you can buy, I (humbly) encourage you to think about a quality lease bull.
We don't have to keep a bull in extra-tough fencing when he's not in business, can change genetics from year to year if we see fit without worrying about the return on the investment we made in last year's bull, and somebody else is getting him a BSE and maintaining him through the winter.
At this point, there's no way we could afford to purchase two nice bulls - one for cows, one for heifers and clean up - but we've been able to get nice calves on the ground. It's really worked out great for us in this 'rebuilding' phase of our operation.

I've tried the rent-a-bull and it seems like it is the luck of the draw on what type and grade of bull you get, even from a reputable source. All you can really say for sure is that it is a Hereford bull.

I have ask why folks think they need TWO bulls - a different one for heifers than the rest of the herd. There are many bulls out there that will do a good job on both. You just need to find one. Better yet find a good breeder you trust and let him find one.

As is often said, one bad cow gives you one bad calf. One bad bull gives you many bad calves. And if oyu are trying to build by retaining some heifers that one bad bull's influence will be around long after he is gone.

I think you can also keep the right bull around without concrete walls for fences and with little extra work other than what it takes to feed him. jmho and experience. Jim

 

[regolith]

I have ask why folks think they need TWO bulls - a different one for heifers than the rest of the herd.

Well, I'll need five next year...
The vets have been pushing this for a while now - have enough bulls and rotate them to give them time off. One per herd is always a risk with an unproven bull, something I've been caught out with twice now. I'm not so convinced about resting them though - sounds like extra work and I don't have the fences for it.
I tried to rest my dominant bull last year. He just pushed through all the fences to get back to the main herd.

 

[Alberta farmer]

How do you know if you are buying a quality bull? Is he really genetically superior or are you buying the feed bucket?
The purebred business is completely different from the real world of commercial production. The purebred breeder needs to play the game if he wants to make some money.
About twenty years ago we got sick of bulls that cost a lot, but were always having problems. We picked out what we thought were our ten top cows and AI'd them to an ABS bull that had the numbers we wanted. I think we got 8 calves...three bulls, five heifers. We kept the bull calf we thought was best. He never got fed one drop of grain and ran out with the cows all winter. He didn't do much the first year breeding and looked like hell compared to a couple of high priced yearlings we had in with the cows. The next year he bred more cows than any other bull and his calves weighed up good. His feet and disposition were excellent. We used him one more year and sold him. He weighed up fairly good.
We kept doing that more and more until we got to the point we weren't buying any bulls. Our calf weights actually increased and our cows definitely improved for the traits we felt were important. We experimented with cross bred bulls and all the drivel about consistancy costing you money went out the door!
About four years ago I got sick of AI'ing cows(other business committments). A guy just 6 miles from me had a purebred Angus herd that were about the best looking cows I had ever seen and he raised them tough on banked grass, swath grazing etc....definitely not a luxury resort for cows, but just like a good tough commercial operation! Now I buy a couple of bull calves right off the cow every year from him and it has worked out well....and I probably pay about the same as he sells his yearlings for!
I realize the purebred guys have to make a living and I know how the game is played. Most of them are quite good at making a silk purse out of a sows ear! The only thing that really counts though for the commercial guy is this: A cow that can raise a calf every year that pushes the scales down, breeds back
on time, doesn't require ANY help and does it on a minimum of inputs. That is just a fact.

 

[KNERSIE]

How do you know if you are buying a quality bull? Is he really genetically superior or are you buying the feed bucket?

You can feed an ordinary bullcalf fat to look better to bluff the uninformed buyer, but you cannot feed quality into an ordinary bullcalf.

About twenty years ago we got sick of bulls that cost a lot, but were always having problems.

That is the exact reason I started my registered herd, haven't bought a bull in the last 5 years, I still AI the select cows, though. I breed bulls for my own use and I breed the type that works for me. My registered herd and commercial herds run together except for the breeding season.

If your cowherd is topnotch from a commercial point of view you can get away with using crossbred bulls, but if your cowherd still needs work, you'll be better off trying to get a consistant crop out of a genetically superior prepotent bull while working on the weaknesses at the same time.

Nothing excites a feedlot buyer more than a really inconsistant group of calves because he knows he'll buy a few good calves cheaply because the poor calves will drag the price of the entire group down.

 

[dun]

How do you know if you are buying a quality bull? Is he really genetically superior or are you buying the feed bucket?

That's where the integrity of the bull producer comes in. I know of several producers that grain their bulls and admit it, one that denies it but does. I also kno several that only feed a little grain at weaning (as we do) and then the bulls develop on forage just like the heifers.
The last bull we bought looks better (fatter) on our pasture then he did at the sellers. We happen to have better wuality forage then he does. When it comes bull buying time he'll be the first place we'll visit.

 

[farmwriter]

I've tried the rent-a-bull and it seems like it is the luck of the draw on what type and grade of bull you get, even from a reputable source. All you can really say for sure is that it is a Hereford bull.

I have ask why folks think they need TWO bulls - a different one for heifers than the rest of the herd. There are many bulls out there that will do a good job on both.

This is the first year we've rented two. We had several really nice 08 heifers and if we wanted to keep a (fairly) short calving season, one bull was not going to be enough to cover all the cows and heifers. So we rented the same big guy we had last year, and a younger, lighter bull for heifers and clean up.
My experience hasn't been 'luck of the draw' at all, but we go to the guy's farm and select the bull(s) we want. How did your rental operation work?

 

[cypressfarms]

Now speaking just for the hubby and myself, not for anyone else. We could go as high as $3500 to $4000 on our next bull. With the expenses and a land debt $2000 to $2500 was pushing it for us. When we were pretty much broke and paying doctor bills the highest we could go was $1800.
We normally buy a bull after we sell our calf crop in October.

You could always buy a weanling or yearling bull. You'll have to grow them out, but you could still get a decent bull fairly cheap. Decent herefeord bull calves (at weaning) can be had for $800 to $1200 around here.

 

[dun]

Now speaking just for the hubby and myself, not for anyone else. We could go as high as $3500 to $4000 on our next bull. With the expenses and a land debt $2000 to $2500 was pushing it for us. When we were pretty much broke and paying doctor bills the highest we could go was $1800.
We normally buy a bull after we sell our calf crop in October.

You could always buy a weanling or yearling bull. You'll have to grow them out, but you could still get a decent bull fairly cheap. Decent herefeord bull calves (at weaning) can be had for $800 to $1200 around here.

A weanling is still a crap shoot. yearling has a better chance of actually looking like what he'll produce.

 

[hillsdown]

Now speaking just for the hubby and myself, not for anyone else. We could go as high as $3500 to $4000 on our next bull. With the expenses and a land debt $2000 to $2500 was pushing it for us. When we were pretty much broke and paying doctor bills the highest we could go was $1800.
We normally buy a bull after we sell our calf crop in October.

You could always buy a weanling or yearling bull. You'll have to grow them out, but you could still get a decent bull fairly cheap. Decent herefeord bull calves (at weaning) can be had for $800 to $1200 around here.

A weanling is still a crap shoot. yearling has a better chance of actually looking like what he'll produce.

Also, you will get a guaranteed breeder exam and with most now a days they come with DNA marbling tests as well. BUT if I found the right bull and he looked and read like all I wanted I would not hesitate to buy him young and raise him up myself. That way he will be used to how things are done around here and also be well adapted to the environment. I am in fact thinking if doing that with one this year very soon if I do decide to bring in an outside bull.

 

[mnmtranching]

How do you know if you are buying a quality bull? Is he really genetically superior or are you buying the feed bucket?
The purebred business is completely different from the real world of commercial production. The purebred breeder needs to play the game if he wants to make some money.
About twenty years ago we got sick of bulls that cost a lot, but were always having problems. We picked out what we thought were our ten top cows and AI'd them to an ABS bull that had the numbers we wanted. I think we got 8 calves...three bulls, five heifers. We kept the bull calf we thought was best. He never got fed one drop of grain and ran out with the cows all winter. He didn't do much the first year breeding and looked like be nice compared to a couple of high priced yearlings we had in with the cows. The next year he bred more cows than any other bull and his calves weighed up good. His feet and disposition were excellent. We used him one more year and sold him. He weighed up fairly good.
We kept doing that more and more until we got to the point we weren't buying any bulls. Our calf weights actually increased and our cows definitely improved for the traits we felt were important. We experimented with cross bred bulls and all the drivel about consistancy costing you money went out the door!
About four years ago I got sick of AI'ing cows(other business committments). A guy just 6 miles from me had a purebred Angus herd that were about the best looking cows I had ever seen and he raised them tough on banked grass, swath grazing etc....definitely not a luxury resort for cows, but just like a good tough commercial operation! Now I buy a couple of bull calves right off the cow every year from him and it has worked out well....and I probably pay about the same as he sells his yearlings for!
I realize the purebred guys have to make a living and I know how the game is played. Most of them are quite good at making a silk purse out of a sows ear! The only thing that really counts though for the commercial guy is this: A cow that can raise a calf every year that pushes the scales down, breeds back
on time, doesn't require ANY help and does it on a minimum of inputs. That is just a fact.

Yup, I like this. I'm more and more into raising my own bulls and a few for the neighbors. As long as we raise market topping calves it's working.