Why wouldn't you?

[Ryan]

The Would You? thread got me to thinking... is there any reason, besides close relation, that you would wouldn't use a home-raised bull?

Ryan

 

[novatech]

Breed the best to the best."

DOC HARRIS

I copied this from the bottom of your post and I totally agree.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I think this is all there is to it; if my bull is good enough, I will use it, and if it is inferior I will get another!

 

[VanC]

If you raise the type and quality of bulls you're looking for, there's no reason you shouldn't use them. Which brings up a question: Assuming they are the same quality in your eyes, is it usually cheaper to raise one or buy one?

 

[charangusman08]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

 

[charangusman08]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

I will quote myself, I know people that do this, I just don't beleive in doing it that way is all!

 

[VanC]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

There are lots of folks that have more than one breeding pasture and use more than one bull. Wouldn't be too difficult in that situation to keep a bull seperated from any closely related cows.

 

[KNERSIE]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

:???: :secret: :help:

 

[EAT BEEF]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

yep :cowboy:

 

[dun]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

yep :cowboy:

In parts of virginia with people that's called marriage

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

charangusman08-

Where you come from - and where most of us come from - the practice of "Concentrated Breeding of Optimal Genetics" is referred to as inbreeding, closebreeding, linebreeding, as well as other terms not so pacifistic or moderate, such as "Sinful, Wicked, Disgusting, Nasty, Lewd, - but the Number ONE, Primary and Basically-Criticized Term of "INBREEDING", - in the strictly Biblical or 'immoral' connotation by which you are alluding - is INCESTUOUS.

I am convinced that the dark cloud that has been cast over the practice of mating closely related individuals of the animal kingdom had it's genesis in the early days of Christianity when the wicked and sinful City of Corinth, located on the isthmus between the Aegean and Adriatic Seas, dragged itself out of the immoral practices of the population of the day - worshiping the myriad number of pagan gods and sexually depraved individuals, and attempted to establish a more virtuous, righteous, angelic and sinless manner of living - thanks to the Jesus Christ-inspired efforts of the Apostle Paul to bring a cessation to those aberrant beliefs and practices, AND a true and legitimate FAITH in Jesus Christ as our Savior. (Ref: The First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians - The Holy Bible).

As a result of the changing living and worshiping habits of the people then - and subsequently for the last - almost 2000 years - the physical acts of mating closely-related individuals has carried over to the animal kingdom as sinful and lewd, and those who have not studied and understood the differentiation between animals and Human Beings are confused insofar as the Fundamental Genetic Reproductive practices of Livestock Breeding are concerned.

The Dictionary definition of "line breeding" is: "the producing of desired characteristics in animals by inbreeding through several successive generations" (emphasis mine).
The Dictionary definition of "In-breeding" is: to become too refined, decadent, soft, overrefined as a result of arbitrarily narrow social or cultural association" (This interpretation relating to Human Being interrelationships).

Jim Lentz, of Indiahoma, OK, 93552 has written a book titled, "The Basis of Linebreeding", and is a deep study of the work he has done for his entire lifetime. It is a deep, comprehensive and fascinating work involving his work with linebreeding of Anxiety 4th Hereford Cattle, and I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the legitimate and scientific investigation of Genetic Improvement of Beef Cattle through Linebreeding.

A pre-requisite is that one be OPEN-MINDED.

"The Basis of Linebreeding" by J. H. Lents
25398 SW Coombs Road
Indiahoma, OK 73552

DOC HARRIS

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Doc, good post.

 

[Herefords.US]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

charangusman08-

Where you come from - and where most of us come from - the practice of "Concentrated Breeding of Optimal Genetics" is referred to as inbreeding, closebreeding, linebreeding, as well as other terms not so pacifistic or moderate, such as "Sinful, Wicked, Disgusting, Nasty, Lewd, - but the Number ONE, Primary and Basically-Criticized Term of "INBREEDING", - in the strictly Biblical or 'immoral' connotation by which you are alluding - is INCESTUOUS.

I am convinced that the dark cloud that has been cast over the practice of mating closely related individuals of the animal kingdom had it's genesis in the early days of Christianity when the wicked and sinful City of Corinth, located on the isthmus between the Aegean and Adriatic Seas, dragged itself out of the immoral practices of the population of the day - worshiping the myriad number of pagan gods and sexually depraved individuals, and attempted to establish a more virtuous, righteous, angelic and sinless manner of living - thanks to the Jesus Christ-inspired efforts of the Apostle Paul to bring a cessation to those aberrant beliefs and practices, AND a true and legitimate FAITH in Jesus Christ as our Savior. (Ref: The First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians - The Holy Bible).

As a result of the changing living and worshiping habits of the people then - and subsequently for the last - almost 2000 years - the physical acts of mating closely-related individuals has carried over to the animal kingdom as sinful and lewd, and those who have not studied and understood the differentiation between animals and Human Beings are confused insofar as the Fundamental Genetic Reproductive practices of Livestock Breeding are concerned.

The Dictionary definition of "line breeding" is: "the producing of desired characteristics in animals by inbreeding through several successive generations" (emphasis mine).
The Dictionary definition of "In-breeding" is: to become too refined, decadent, soft, overrefined as a result of arbitrarily narrow social or cultural association" (This interpretation relating to Human Being interrelationships).

Jim Lentz, of Indiahoma, OK, 93552 has written a book titled, "The Basis of Linebreeding", and is a deep study of the work he has done for his entire lifetime. It is a deep, comprehensive and fascinating work involving his work with linebreeding of Anxiety 4th Hereford Cattle, and I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the legitimate and scientific investigation of Genetic Improvement of Beef Cattle through Linebreeding.

A pre-requisite is that one be OPEN-MINDED.

"The Basis of Linebreeding" by J. H. Lents
25398 SW Coombs Road
Indiahoma, OK 73552

DOC HARRIS

Good post, Doc!

Recently, through studying the intense linebreeding program that Gudgell and Simpson pursued (as outlined in Lents book), curiosity led me back to looking at the pedigree of the Anxiety 4th bred cow that we produced in the 80s that we considered the BEST cow that we had ever produced. When I looked at her pedigree, I also found that she was also the most "inbred" individual that we ever produced as well.

Fear of getting our cattle TOO tightly wound had prevented us from producing individuals with pedigrees that tight. I now believe that unjustified "fear" kept us from taking our cowherd to the next level - while we searched for outside bulls that would improve our herd in vain. In frustration my father finally opted to use a Limousin bull, rather than just mildly "taint" those linebred Anxiety 4th Herefords with Hereford bulls of other bloodlines.

For anyone interested that cow's registered name and number was: JF DORRETTE 495 (18595626). She was born in May, 1984 and dropped dead on the place in April, 2000 just short of 16 years old. She was sound to the end and had a healthy, good calf every year. I was disappointed to find that an update to the AHA records must have purged the TPR records of her registered progeny from her record.

I'm a strong proponent of linebreeding. Any student of Hereford history should be able to see that the biggest changes and lasting influence in the breed have been brought about by such breeding programs. The same can be said of many other animals like hunting dogs and homing pigeons.

I've only had 9 calves this spring. Most of my cows are calving in the fall. But of the seven bull calves I've had this spring, my favorite(at least right now - he's just 6 weeks old) is the result of son/dam mating, purposely done as a genetic "gutcheck" before embarking on an extended linebreeding program.

I also crossed this son with several of his paternal half siblings with good results and I have also bred his sire (my herdsire pictured in my avatar) to about a dozen of his own daughters that will all calve in the fall. The results should prove interesting! At least I should know what I'm working with going forward.

George

 

[sackshowcattle]

I thik it is just something that human nature controls and I personally don't understand it almost everything on earth is based on it and it does have its advantages. for one adam and eve that makes us all line bred. since has stated they proved it the recently traced the y chromosome back to one "scientific adam". Second noah's arc two of every animal that would make every animal linebred. Science is also bring near extinct animals back. That isn't a very big gene pool to get away from linebreeding, some of them you can count on one hand how many are left. Now the advantages some people are afraid of. But the quickest way to see if there is some kind of unwanted gene is breed close and see if it shows up. Recently Maines and shorthorns learned that. Further back the Herfords learnd it with the dwarf gene and I'm sure the list goes on. Maybe that is why people are afraid of it they are afraid that something will popup in the breed and sway the value and use of the breed.

 

[rocket2222]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

yep :cowboy:

In parts of virginia with people that's called marriage

I had not heard that, my wife/sister said she hadn't heard that either :shock:

 

[dun]

In parts of virginia with people that's called marriage

I had not heard that, my wife/sister said she hadn't heard that either :shock:

Must not be from the "right" part of va

 

[EAT BEEF]

Are you guys saying if you raised the best bull you have ever seen and made wonderful calves, you would breed it too its sister and/or mother :lol: . Where I come from that is called inbreeding and is frowned upon. :frowns:

yep :cowboy:

In parts of virginia with people that's called marriage

That's funny Dun I'd always heard that about the Ozarks ;-)

 

[Brandonm22]

I thik it is just something that human nature controls and I personally don't understand it almost everything on earth is based on it and it does have its advantages. for one adam and eve that makes us all line bred. since has stated they proved it the recently traced the y chromosome back to one "scientific adam". Second noah's arc two of every animal that would make every animal linebred. Science is also bring near extinct animals back. That isn't a very big gene pool to get away from linebreeding, some of them you can count on one hand how many are left. Now the advantages some people are afraid of. But the quickest way to see if there is some kind of unwanted gene is breed close and see if it shows up. Recently Maines and shorthorns learned that. Further back the Herfords learnd it with the dwarf gene and I'm sure the list goes on. Maybe that is why people are afraid of it they are afraid that something will popup in the breed and sway the value and use of the breed.

We as an industry are on a performance kick right now and linebreeding leads (typically) to a depression in performance versus outcrossing different families within the same breed. We all want our EPDs to go up so knowingly doing something that will hurt our performance numbers really goes against the grain. Now on the commercial end, if you can cross two linebred breeds you can get even more heterosis boost; but unless you were a huge ranch whose purebred herds were run to provide genetics for your larger commercial herd it is hard to see how linebreeding directly pays the breeder. Like somebody brought up in the frame score debate, if the bull buyers are happy with what you are selling keep selling it...... and right now the EPDs are all the rage.

 

[JWBrahman]

This is one of the oldies but goodies that sounds even better when you dust it off and listen to it again.
Happy Holidays folks, best wishes to all.

 

[TexasBred]

This is one of the oldies but goodies that sounds even better when you dust it off and listen to it again.
Happy Holidays folks, best wishes to all.

Thanks JW....I read, laughed and enjoyed it once again. :lol: