Why does every breed of cattle cross so well with Angus?

[Bright Raven]

If you are you measuring diversity in terms of the number of outright alleles? If so, then you're right ... the relationship is linear.

However, if you're measuring the genetic variation within combinations of alleles, then the relationship is exponential.

I hypothesize, at least as it regards cattle breeding and cattle populations, the latter is a more fair representation of reality than the former.

In terms of of genetic material (genes/alleles), the larger the population the greater the diversity. Let's be clear, in a domestic animal where breeding is controlled to the extent possible, the natural order is skewed.

It's skewed only to the extent all people making all breeding decisions are using the same decision tree to make the decisions that are being made.

If you want 1900 - 2200 lb mama cows, you'll make a different decision that the guy down the road who wants 900-1100 lb mama cows. Such is the state of things within the Angus breed...

So, I'd argue that, as a direct result of the diversity of opinions among Angus breeders, the genetic diversity is more likely to be exponentially related to population size of Angus than linearly related.

PS -- The same can be said for nearly all of the larger breed associations (i.e., great diversity among the desired type of cattle), its just more noticeable with Angus than with other breeds due to their prevalence and promotion.
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PPS -- This says nothing of the "what was knowingly hidden in the woodpile" effect of Angus genetics.

I agree. With one highlight. It is not limited to the Angus Breed. It is more popular to pick on the Angus breed because they dominate US markets. The same phenomenon you mention, i.e. one breeder coveting 1200 pound mommas and another coveting 1800 pound mommas, occurs in all breeds with one trait or another. It is not a bad thing. Preserving diversity has value.

 

[farmerjan]

If you do some looking, the angus that were winning awards and in the show ring in the 50's were short, stout, round as a barrel, on 4 posts that stood on the four corners of the animal. Like the "lowlines"; which are angus too..... Then they went in the opposite direction and in the 80's they looked like black Chianina's. I used to have to stand on a stump or milk crate to breed some when I was doing AI for Select. So there is still a diversity there that may have a few " $%^#@% in the woodpile" from back in the old days.

Yes, black is what sells in a large part of the country. One thing was due to the angus assoc doing the "selling" of the breed and it's attributes. And the fact that there was alot of Japanese ownership of plants and such and they were "sold" on the angus breed to where they were paying premiums for the " black angus " cattle to kill. So everything became "black angus" that had a black hide. Flavor, tenderness, and ability to flesh and finish faster was a selling point and the angus assoc did one he// of a job promoting it.

Did you know that the Hereford assoc actually had a "branded beef" promotion first? They just didn't have the organization and probably not the dollars, to get it going like the angus did. We might all be chasing pretty red white faced cattle if they had done things differently.... and I like herefords too.

 

[Muddy]

Majority of commercial producers here have mixed herd of crossbred cows but they all use black bulls on their cows to produce black hided calves. It's not hard to put an uniformed crop of black calves and you have easy time to selling them. It seems that they required the bulls to be homozygous black whenever what kind of traits the customers seeking for to put in the cow herd.

Sounds like no one uses a Angus bull for calving and moderate carcass. Those are two good reasons I went back with Angus bulls last year. DNA testing and EPD'S in the Angus breed are also second to none. In a commercial operation at least around here, black sells better at the barn and at the breeder - specialty sales on adverage.
I guess the reason that black commercial cows are so common is they sell less and put more money in the cattlemens pocket.

I changed your statement.

Yes Black Angus bulls are what most folks are use.....to put them on heifers for their first calf. As for the moderate carcass, I think that Black Angus isn't the only breed that can do that.

 

[Son of Butch]

I reject the premise that Every breed crosses well with Angus.
It depends on your objective and end goal.

Cheese production: Angus does not cross well or improve cheese production in Jerseys.
Milk volume production: does not cross well with Holsteins.
Rodeo cattle: does not improve roping cattle or bucking bulls.

Uniform meat production for mass production of above average quality by high volume packers: BINGO
Not the best carcasses, but the most good enough or better quality to satisfy packer demand.

Fertility and calf survival has been the key to Angus profitability and popularity.
Pounds weaned per cow exposed has been where Angus shine and if adding Angus improves another beef breeds
pounds weaned per cow exposed, then you can certainly say that breed crosses well with Angus.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Some people are just too ignorant to learn and face facts. Angus is the breed all others are chasing besides the niche breeds.
Hereford is my breed of choice, but I can't see any benefits to raising them. Why not raise what the market wants instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?

 

[True Grit Farms]

I reject the premise that Every breed crosses well with Angus.
It depends on your objective and end goal.

Cheese production: Angus does not cross well or improve cheese production in Jerseys.
Milk volume production: does not cross well with Holsteins.
Rodeo cattle: does not improve roping cattle or bucking bulls.

Uniform meat production for mass production of above average quality by high volume packers: BINGO
Not the best carcasses, but the most good enough or better quality to satisfy packer demand.

Fertility and calf survival has been the key to Angus profitability and popularity.
Pounds weaned per cow exposed has been where Angus shine and if adding Angus improves another beef breeds
pounds weaned per cow exposed, then you can certainly say that breed crosses well with Angus.

I can agree with all that, "every" was the wrong word to use. SOB, what's the next most popular breed for making a crossbred composite? It has to be Brahman or Hereford I assume?

 

[Muddy]

Beefmaster! They are getting some attention from the commercial guys.

 

[Silver]

Some people are just too ignorant to learn and face facts. Angus is the breed all others are chasing besides the niche breeds.
Hereford is my breed of choice, but I can't see any benefits to raising them. Why not raise what the market wants instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?

I breed for the calves that get the highest dollar come sale day. I have never seen black calves do that.

 

[Muddy]

Some people are just too ignorant to learn and face facts. Angus is the breed all others are chasing besides the niche breeds.
Hereford is my breed of choice, but I can't see any benefits to raising them. Why not raise what the market wants instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?

Someone is wearing the blinds and it's not me. As for the market, why not get rid of the black hide fad? Why is that red angus feeders bringing less when they are genetically same as black Angus?

 

[Son of Butch]

I breed for calf crops with highest Net Profit (pounds weaned per cow exposed)
10 average calves from 10 cows NET more than 9 above average calves from 10 cows.

 

[Silver]

I breed for calf crops with highest Net Profit (pounds weaned per cow exposed)
10 average calves from 10 cows NET more than 9 above average calves from 10 cows.

I should have phrased things a little differently, I should have said that I breed for the best cows I can make, knowing they will give me the best calves and therefore bring the most dollars.
I believe weaned calf percentage from above average cows should be every bit as high as from average cows. I've seen lots of average cow herds with less than stellar weaning percentages.

 

[elkwc]

Regardless of which breed/breeds a breeder uses he needs to be careful in his selection. There are many good Angus that sire uniformity and consistency. But they are also many that don't. Just because an individual looks good doesn't mean he will breed that way. There have been many fire and ice matings in many breeds. I've seen many in the Angus and Hereford breeds. The progeny of these mating many times don't sire consistency or conformity. A buyer in the seats notices that right off. The experienced buyers can tell a high percentage Simmi or Limmi even if they are black. What was in the woodpile is what concerns me with some Angus and many Polled Herefords. But back to what breeds cross well I was talking to a fellow breeder today. We both agreed in the past we had saw and owned some good Char/Angus and Char/Hereford crosses. The main reason that he quit was because of the dock. They started really docking the smokies. The desire for black hides played a factor in many breeding decisions. I knew of on ranch that fed out all of their cattle and continued the Char/Hereford cross up into the 2000's.

 

[Brute 23]

Because with Angus there is no where to go but up so any thing you out cross to seems like and upgrade.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I breed for calf crops with highest Net Profit (pounds weaned per cow exposed)
10 average calves from 10 cows NET more than 9 above average calves from 10 cows.

Any reason you prefer that metric (lbs weaned / exposed female) instead of another (say, net profit / acre)?

 

[Muddy]

Regardless of which breed/breeds a breeder uses he needs to be careful in his selection. There are many good Angus that sire uniformity and consistency. But they are also many that don't. Just because an individual looks good doesn't mean he will breed that way. There have been many fire and ice matings in many breeds. I've seen many in the Angus and Hereford breeds. The progeny of these mating many times don't sire consistency or conformity. A buyer in the seats notices that right off. The experienced buyers can tell a high percentage Simmi or Limmi even if they are black. What was in the woodpile is what concerns me with some Angus and many Polled Herefords. But back to what breeds cross well I was talking to a fellow breeder today. We both agreed in the past we had saw and owned some good Char/Angus and Char/Hereford crosses. The main reason that he quit was because of the dock. They started really docking the smokies. The desire for black hides played a factor in many breeding decisions. I knew of on ranch that fed out all of their cattle and continued the Char/Hereford cross up into the 2000's.

So how do you know if it's a black Simmental or a black limousin?

 

[Bright Raven]

If you are you measuring diversity in terms of the number of outright alleles? If so, then you're right ... the relationship is linear.

However, if you're measuring the genetic variation within combinations of alleles, then the relationship is exponential.

I hypothesize, at least as it regards cattle breeding and cattle populations, the latter is a more fair representation of reality than the former.

My point is that the relationship is direct versus inverse. So you are getting much deeper into the metrics. For this discussion, whether it is linear or exponential is interesting but I simply wanted to make a rudimentary point that it is obvious that you will observe more variation in phenotype (including a broader range of genepool alleles) in a larger population. I realize that is not profound but I felt compelled to make that point since you seemed alarmed about the diversity in the Angus breed.

 

[elkwc]

Regardless of which breed/breeds a breeder uses he needs to be careful in his selection. There are many good Angus that sire uniformity and consistency. But they are also many that don't. Just because an individual looks good doesn't mean he will breed that way. There have been many fire and ice matings in many breeds. I've seen many in the Angus and Hereford breeds. The progeny of these mating many times don't sire consistency or conformity. A buyer in the seats notices that right off. The experienced buyers can tell a high percentage Simmi or Limmi even if they are black. What was in the woodpile is what concerns me with some Angus and many Polled Herefords. But back to what breeds cross well I was talking to a fellow breeder today. We both agreed in the past we had saw and owned some good Char/Angus and Char/Hereford crosses. The main reason that he quit was because of the dock. They started really docking the smokies. The desire for black hides played a factor in many breeding decisions. I knew of on ranch that fed out all of their cattle and continued the Char/Hereford cross up into the 2000's.

So how do you know if it's a black Simmental or a black limousin?

There are many things that are considered. Muscle type, frame type, ect. Many times a local sale barn will announce the owner and what the calves are sired by but when they don't a feeder buyer knows what type of animal his buyers want and selects for that.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Regardless of which breed/breeds a breeder uses he needs to be careful in his selection. There are many good Angus that sire uniformity and consistency. But they are also many that don't. Just because an individual looks good doesn't mean he will breed that way. There have been many fire and ice matings in many breeds. I've seen many in the Angus and Hereford breeds. The progeny of these mating many times don't sire consistency or conformity. A buyer in the seats notices that right off. The experienced buyers can tell a high percentage Simmi or Limmi even if they are black. What was in the woodpile is what concerns me with some Angus and many Polled Herefords. But back to what breeds cross well I was talking to a fellow breeder today. We both agreed in the past we had saw and owned some good Char/Angus and Char/Hereford crosses. The main reason that he quit was because of the dock. They started really docking the smokies. The desire for black hides played a factor in many breeding decisions. I knew of on ranch that fed out all of their cattle and continued the Char/Hereford cross up into the 2000's.

So how do you know if it's a black Simmental or a black limousin?

. You know the phenotypical differences in the 2 breeds???

 

[WalnutCrest]

Regardless of which breed/breeds a breeder uses he needs to be careful in his selection. There are many good Angus that sire uniformity and consistency. But they are also many that don't. Just because an individual looks good doesn't mean he will breed that way. There have been many fire and ice matings in many breeds. I've seen many in the Angus and Hereford breeds. The progeny of these mating many times don't sire consistency or conformity. A buyer in the seats notices that right off. The experienced buyers can tell a high percentage Simmi or Limmi even if they are black. What was in the woodpile is what concerns me with some Angus and many Polled Herefords. But back to what breeds cross well I was talking to a fellow breeder today. We both agreed in the past we had saw and owned some good Char/Angus and Char/Hereford crosses. The main reason that he quit was because of the dock. They started really docking the smokies. The desire for black hides played a factor in many breeding decisions. I knew of on ranch that fed out all of their cattle and continued the Char/Hereford cross up into the 2000's.

So how do you know if it's a black Simmental or a black limousin?

. You know the phenotypical differences in the 2 breeds???

Yeah, one is black and the other one is black.

What more does anyone need to know! Black cattle are the awesomest ever always!

 

[True Grit Farms]

Some people are just too ignorant to learn and face facts. Angus is the breed all others are chasing besides the niche breeds.
Hereford is my breed of choice, but I can't see any benefits to raising them. Why not raise what the market wants instead of trying to reinvent the wheel?

I don't understand this TG....Hereford is my breed of choice too...so I have a small herd of Hereford mammas and run a Angus bull over them and get very nice baldies...at least I think they are nice To me it is the best of both worlds...I don't take a hit at the barn, and I still have the cows in the pasture that I want...and my laid back Herefords are just what this slowing down, stove up old man needs LOL.

Tim

Sounds like I need to buy your heifers. Good Hereford heifers are expensive. To me nothing looks as good as a red and white cow in the pasture. In another year I'm going back to using Hereford bulls for some more replacements. I have a few red baldies and they look good, and their look good to me.