Why do salt/mineral blocks exist?

[angus9259]

Here's a pretty good research paper on need for minerals. Sounds brilliant. I believe it. That said, it completely lacks comparative data. It even has a table showing performance of heifers on minerals in feed and top dress - but NO data showing comparative animals with NO mineral. This is what I find to be the case in the mineral argument. Plenty of really cool and PROBABLY true metabolic data - but NO proof that the metabolic reasoning is true. I feed mineral believing the metabolic data is probably true but no real "proof".

http://extension.uga.edu/publications/d ... umber=B895

The only thing I've ever PROVEN is what happens when they don't have salt. That's not good.

Every year I swear I"m going to pull back the mineral (except magnesium in spring) and every year I chicken out.

No snark. Well researched. Still scratching my head.

 

[pdfangus]

another aspect of the situation is.....
how diverse is your pasture? A highly diverse pasture with multiple species of plants and species from multiple plant groups is going to be inherently more nutritious than a monoculture of anything....

 

[TexasBred]

One label is in ppm, the other is in %.
Just curious:
How many ppm is .03% copper?

To convert % to PPM move your decimal point 4 places to the right.

 

[TexasBred]

If you would take the time to do some serious study into all the research that is done on cattle health and nutrition instead of asking snarky questions you might learn that there is evidence pertaining to what does and don't work as well as why it does or don't work.Not just anecdotal evidence. I'll let you figure it out. Should keep you at least scratching your head for a bit.

Sore spot Texas?

No snark. Genuine questions.

I have done the research and found it either entirely inconclusive or generated by those with something to gain. I feed mineral tubs and trace salt blocks. Throw a bunch of money at that elephant in my pasture every year. Perhaps if we all did some research we might all be here scratching our heads and then, like me, keep pumping mineral and lining the wallets of those who sell it "just in case" I need it!!

Sorry you don't like my questions. Carry on with your convictions - I will continue to challenge my own.....

Yet you yourself admit that you continue to feed mineral. Maybe because you too have something to gain. ;-) Higher conception rates, fewer days open, higher milk production, higher quality milk, stronger immune system, fewer aborted calves, higher weaning weights.......... hmmmmmmmm If you can afford to lose the money divide your heard and run your own trials.

 

[angus9259]

Yet you yourself admit that you continue to feed mineral. Maybe because you too have something to gain. ;-) Higher conception rates, fewer days open, higher milk production, higher quality milk, stronger immune system, fewer aborted calves, higher weaning weights.......... hmmmmmmmm If you can afford to lose the money divide your heard and run your own trials.

Show me the study not just the theory - that has been performed by someone other than a mineral company.

I do keep feeding them. I have acknowledged all along the conundrum in which that puts me. The science makes sense. The evidence is anectdotal. And we have come full circle.....

 

[Nesikep]

OK.. here's some evidence, the value of which you can determine yourself.

many years ago, I had an awesome cow.. her steers would gain over 3 lbs a day with nothing but milk and grass, but she was a poor breeder.. I studied it for a while, and I found that the years she was late, she always bred back quickly, but the years she was early, she would have a heck of a time getting bred. So I observed all her symptoms.. she chewed wood, rope, and whatever she could reach (pica), she was a red cow, but you could see a 'netted' appearance in her fur, and she often had RP. Mineral deficiencies that go along with those 3 symptoms are Phosphorus, Copper, and Selenium respectively. I came to the conclusion that as she was lactating, she was getting run down, when she was quickly exposed to the bull, that didn't have time to happen.
So I broke down and spend $80 to get a blood test done... guess what she was low on... exactly those 3 minerals.. and they were less than half of what is considered "minimal".

I went shopping for minerals, and found some that were well formulated for what I was seeing.. She bred back better, never again had RP, and had a better coat.

I did a lot of research on mineral deficiencies, and found that I couldn't find any document that put them all in one place.. there were individual documents for specific minerals, and I took it upon myself to put them in 1 place..
The full story here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73928&p=875302&hilit=mineral#p875302


I don't think it's profitable to feed mineral tubs at the cost I have to pay for them ($1/lb), but the mineral has helped herd health, and it certainly at least breaks even. Different breeds of cows (Simm for example) have different (Higher Copper) mineral requirements as well.
As it stands, since I've fed better mineral supplements, I have a 100% birth -to- weaning rate over 150 calves.. who knows, that could all go to heck next year, but it stands for now.

 

[TexasBred]

Yet you yourself admit that you continue to feed mineral. Maybe because you too have something to gain. ;-) Higher conception rates, fewer days open, higher milk production, higher quality milk, stronger immune system, fewer aborted calves, higher weaning weights.......... hmmmmmmmm If you can afford to lose the money divide your heard and run your own trials.

Show me the study not just the theory - that has been performed by someone other than a mineral company.

I do keep feeding them. I have acknowledged all along the conundrum in which that puts me. The science makes sense. The evidence is anectdotal. And we have come full circle.....

So you question your own actions. Wow....who was it that made the comment "as confused as a termite in a yoyo"?? Angus all good agricultural universities have done research on the benefits of supplying the needed minerals for cattle. You can google them for yourself. Now if you want everything chiseled in stone no you probably won't find it.

 

[Dave]

The nutrient requirements for minerals in a cows diet are real well established. If you can meet those requirements without a supplement more power to you. But reality is that the chances of that occurring are somewhere between slim and none. So you have three choices. Use a stock mineral mix that provides sufficient amounts of all the required minerals. Have a custom blend made based on soil, forage, and manure samples to meet your exact needs. Two problems with that approach. First it is pretty darn expensive. The second is that it is based on a snap shot in time. As in, what the conditions were on the day you tested. Or you can feed no minerals at all and run the risk of being short on one or more of the minerals that your cattle require. That could have no noticeable effect or it could cause a train wreck. Myself I have been through enough train wrecks to have learned to do everything I can to avoid them in the future.

 

[angus9259]

So you question your own actions. Wow....who was it that made the comment "as confused as a termite in a yoyo"??

Yeah you caught me. Me and Socrates. How foolish it is to question one's own actions . . . I stand very much corrected.

Carry on. :tiphat:

(now THAT was snarky by the way )

 

[angus9259]

Seriously. I think everyone should feed mineral. I feed it myself. I also question it (sorry if that makes me confused as a termite in a yo yo). All I'm saying is the evidence is anecdotal and not "proven" which doesn't make it BAD evidence just not scientific. If anyone has actually ever seen a study comparing this lot of cattle with this other lot - same breed - same feed - etc.... that isn't from a mineral company, I would love to see it. My sincere apologies for any mineral feeders I offended along the way by questioning such matters.

Now let's discuss if vaccinations are really necessary!!

 

[TexasBred]

Seriously. I think everyone should feed mineral. I feed it myself. I also question it (sorry if that makes me confused as a termite in a yo yo). All I'm saying is the evidence is anecdotal and not "proven" which doesn't make it BAD evidence just not scientific. If anyone has actually ever seen a study comparing this lot of cattle with this other lot - same breed - same feed - etc.... that isn't from a mineral company, I would love to see it. My sincere apologies for any mineral feeders I offended along the way by questioning such matters.

Now let's discuss if vaccinations are really necessary!!

You haven't offended anyone Angus and never worry about that. However, I did ask you to do your own googling because there are numerous university studies and doctoral dissertations (researched and unbiased) on the topic so the information is there. You can simply find it for your own satisfaction or simply accept it. We do have "free will".

 

[angus9259]

However, I did ask you to do your own googling because there are numerous university studies and doctoral dissertations (researched and unbiased) on the topic so the information is there. You can simply find it for your own satisfaction or simply accept it. We do have "free will".

Shoot. Sorry I missed that in your earlier post. Never thought to do any research of my own. Good point. I'll look into it.

 

[Dave]

There is some very strong scientific evidence from land grant universities that show the affects of a diet lacking in various minerals. For a large part those studies were done repeatedly years ago. Try looking at Nutrient Requirements in Beef Cattle, seventh revised edition, National Research Council- National Academy of Science, Washington DC., 2001 That is the only publication but there are a huge amount of studies that went into it. I have one paper in front of me that is on "The Effects of phosphorus Supplementation on Reproduction in Dairy Cattle" by Alex Hristov, University of Idaho. In the references it lists 12 published scientific studies. None done by mineral companies.

 

[TexasBred]

However, I did ask you to do your own googling because there are numerous university studies and doctoral dissertations (researched and unbiased) on the topic so the information is there. You can simply find it for your own satisfaction or simply accept it. We do have "free will".

Shoot. Sorry I missed that in your earlier post. Never thought to do any research of my own. Good point. I'll look into it.

;-) ;-)

 

[Karin]

So what would you do if you live in an area where a soil test, a couple of forage tests and half a dozen blood samples will set you back the value of a cow?

I know what I do. Just curious. I can't say if I'm doing it right or if the vet advice is right, but one thing for sure, the cost of testing is astronomical compared to the benefit you might get from it.
I see these trace mineral blocks (crystalix) advertised quite heavily to dairy farmers in the newspapers/magazines here in NZ.

Do coastal farms usually supplement salt? I've got bags of salt sitting in the shed, and the vets tell me my cows don't need it, so they just stay sitting there.

This link might interest you, rego: http://www.grassland.org.nz/publication ... n_2194.pdf

Despite what your vet says, soils and their salinity (where soil tests can be important, just saying) differs between coastal and inland areas.

It's at this point where it's not worth having all three done, but choosing which is most ideal to have done that would most likely get you the best results, regardless if it's an ephemeral test or not.

 

[Karin]

This thread brings back memories from a long time ago, re this thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29660

I remember when I got Dad to switch blocks from the standard blue blocks to the trace blocks (minus Se) and our steers went nuts over them, and improved their health even by a small margin. We could've went with loose but I think it was down to $$$ (and old habits die hard) that blocks were still used.

Thanks Nesi for helping me remember that.

 

[TexasBred]

This thread brings back memories from a long time ago, re this thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29660

I remember when I got Dad to switch blocks from the standard blue blocks to the trace blocks (minus Se) and our steers went nuts over them, and improved their health even by a small margin. We could've went with loose but I think it was down to $$$ (and old habits die hard) that blocks were still used.

Thanks Nesi for helping me remember that.

Sounds like they simply didn't need the selenium.

 

[Karin]

It does, doesn't it? But since we didn't feed the Se blocks that's something I won't know. Maybe they did, but due to $$$$ constraints the Se-free blocks were chosen over the brown, any-trace-mineral-but-Se ones. I think Dad figured that since we didn't have breeding stock that the Se wasn't needed, even though we're in a Se-deficient area.

 

[regolith]

Thanks Karin. I did actually farm in that area for a while; it was deficient in a few minerals.

These days I just keep a mix at base rates going into the cows (either by water treatment or direct drenching) for most of the year. Most blood test results I've done the vet says 'keep doing whatever you're doing' so it seems a fairly safe bet. Also, I was on a farm with the cows not cycling well and the vet there said that cows that blood tested well could still be helped by added minerals... so again, I think what I'm doing is pretty much the safe option. If I moved to a different area I might do more blood screening but at this point I think I'm not getting much help from it, relative to what it costs.
We do soil tests every second year (I don't pay for it, but I know from having paid for tests on the other farms its probably over $400 each time). Over time fluctuations are usually shown to be aberrations, and it's not greatly helpful I think in relation to what mineral the cows need. As for forage samples, the charge for one sample and never being given the printed result just blew me away last time I did it; have had trouble a few times getting lab results off the vet as some of them feel the farmer might misunderstand direct results (or the vet is just disorganised). I don't keep results I've been told over the phone in memory for more than a few seconds, so that just doesn't work for me, I need the printed results.

Interesting - that report you linked was from 2000. When I was on that farm it was really difficult trying to find the information I needed regarding salt supplementation, and that report actually differs considerably from advice I was given by the farm owners, their consultant and my vets. I wish I'd read that several years ago, it would have cleared things up nicely.

 

[Karin]

Thanks Karin. I did actually farm in that area for a while; it was deficient in a few minerals.

These days I just keep a mix at base rates going into the cows (either by water treatment or direct drenching) for most of the year. Most blood test results I've done the vet says 'keep doing whatever you're doing' so it seems a fairly safe bet. Also, I was on a farm with the cows not cycling well and the vet there said that cows that blood tested well could still be helped by added minerals... so again, I think what I'm doing is pretty much the safe option. If I moved to a different area I might do more blood screening but at this point I think I'm not getting much help from it, relative to what it costs.
We do soil tests every second year (I don't pay for it, but I know from having paid for tests on the other farms its probably over $400 each time). Over time fluctuations are usually shown to be aberrations, and it's not greatly helpful I think in relation to what mineral the cows need. As for forage samples, the charge for one sample and never being given the printed result just blew me away last time I did it; have had trouble a few times getting lab results off the vet as some of them feel the farmer might misunderstand direct results (or the vet is just disorganised). I don't keep results I've been told over the phone in memory for more than a few seconds, so that just doesn't work for me, I need the printed results.

Interesting - that report you linked was from 2000. When I was on that farm it was really difficult trying to find the information I needed regarding salt supplementation, and that report actually differs considerably from advice I was given by the farm owners, their consultant and my vets. I wish I'd read that several years ago, it would have cleared things up nicely.

Not a problem. It goes to show you how small the world gets and how much we learn over time. That's a lot of money for a blood test, is it mainly in shipping and handling or labour for doing the actual test? It's a bummer too because those tests can come in handy when needed.