thanks for the input. i am basing my comments on what works/ed for me. i have been told this by people who have bought calves from me. its not theory just my expereince. i actually just put up a sign and sold cattle that way without a lot of hassle. I agree there are no absolutes but i also like the brainstorming these forums provide. everyone who asks a question i think is trying to learn a new way. thanks.
why background /vac/ or wean em at all...just load em??
- Thread starter dieselbeef
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ROCK-N-W
Well-known member
.
Sure no problem.
Next time you go to a ag class pay attention, they were giving you good advice.
Also read some of the previous comments from the other ranchers a lot of good advice has already been given.
As a rancher that provides a source of food for human consumption it should be in everyones best interest to supply healthy animals. Common Sense says If we did all the prices would be better for everyone. Because the feedlots would have to put less efforts into animals that some people have chosen to neglect because a little old fashion hard work is involved. That goes for taking care of your whole herd. It cost less than 5.00 to give meds & vac a calve.
& if you pick up .15Lb on A HDRW you not only recoupe your money but you show more of a profit.
OP
OP
dieselbeef
Well-known member
ROCK-N-W":p8083qms said:
who else is in myakka??
calm down there duke! the ag class was a waste if my time fer sure.
yall have seemed to overlook the possibility of double dosin yer calves. if the buyers dont know and they do it anyways then the store meat is even WORSE! for the public after you COWBOYS! et done fillin it full of vac and hormone implants.
yall are makin me think about this alright. and it isnt ina good way. keep shootin yer animals full of meds and growth hormones and ill keep eatin what i raise... healthy by nature...not by chemicals...sell that at the barn ..yall are pi**in me off now. what a load of crap yall spew.
Rock-N-W,
Right on the mark! We should all try to produce the best animals we can. If we don't do for the money we should be doing it because it is the right thing to do for the consumer. I had a Ribeye Sunday night for my 40th birthday and it was the best meat I had ever eaten!! I really appreciated then the work that producer put into that animal. Everything from genetics to healthcare to proper handling. There is no way to make inferior beef taste that good!
Right on the mark! We should all try to produce the best animals we can. If we don't do for the money we should be doing it because it is the right thing to do for the consumer. I had a Ribeye Sunday night for my 40th birthday and it was the best meat I had ever eaten!! I really appreciated then the work that producer put into that animal. Everything from genetics to healthcare to proper handling. There is no way to make inferior beef taste that good!
ROCK-N-W
Well-known member
Thats why you gotta pay attention to the 30 day withdrawel before you sell.
Hope those cows and calves of yours don't start dropping dead from liver flukes.
ROCK-N-W
Well-known member
Diesel,
When I beef my next steer, we will just have to have a BBQ
Compare one of my steaks with one of your grass feed only steaks. The proof will be on your plate.
When I beef my next steer, we will just have to have a BBQ
Compare one of my steaks with one of your grass feed only steaks. The proof will be on your plate.
dieselbeef":2vdo7y3o said:
Slow down there. FDA won't approve us using any vaccine or implant that is dosed at such a high level that accidentally double dosing it would lead to toxicity problems for either the animal or the consumers on down the line. Actually if Rock-N-W vaccinated all his calves on a monday, sold them on a tuesday and order buyer Bob dosed them with EXACTLY the same stuff on Wednesday there would likely be NO ill effects.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
dieselbeef":25l30i4g said:
I'd rather get my info from the people the extension agent calls. If he was making money in this business, why is he working for peanuts?
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
If you check out the Pfizer site and any other vaccine companies site that is reputable...or ask you vet... you would see they have done tests about double doseing. And even more doseing...no problem...ask the vet about it. They did these tests for people who had excuses like this as to why not vaccinate.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
How true 
Txwalt":4idc5t05 said:
So what you're telling me is that, in your local area, you have no clue who raises what, when they sell, or what type of health program they maintain? Somehow, I don't buy that - and where did I mention the records were acquired through the salebarn? ;-) Unless you truck your calves to another county, the feedlot owners are new to the county, they are just starting out, or they are just plain stupid - they know who raised what calves - it is part of the territory.
OP
OP
dieselbeef
Well-known member
i beg to differ...i think the biggest part of this may be how many you can sell at a time. selling 10 vs selling a pot at a time right off the ranch would make a difference to the feedlot owner but...if yer sellin them all yr only 10 at a time say then they make the salebarn and pretty much they go thru the chutes anonymously.....
maybe were just not up to speed here in fl...too far from the feedlots
actually im gonna ry private treaty to a local cattle co and see what happens next round
maybe were just not up to speed here in fl...too far from the feedlots
actually im gonna ry private treaty to a local cattle co and see what happens next round
OP
OP
dieselbeef
Well-known member
i have discovered since i began this thread that A LOT more people dont do all the conditioning than will come out here and admit it.
until now ive done all that im SUPPOSED to but....my point is im considering doing nothin myself and even if i make less i will have less invested....less chance of injury to me or the animal also. my animals are definitely healthy and at least avg when they make the barn. im confident of that.
this comin crop will be done differently and ill see what kind of performance difference i get at the barn. maybe ill make sure the barn announces it or maybe i wont do it...anyone else game to step up and see the differences
until now ive done all that im SUPPOSED to but....my point is im considering doing nothin myself and even if i make less i will have less invested....less chance of injury to me or the animal also. my animals are definitely healthy and at least avg when they make the barn. im confident of that.
this comin crop will be done differently and ill see what kind of performance difference i get at the barn. maybe ill make sure the barn announces it or maybe i wont do it...anyone else game to step up and see the differences
I'm really surprised at the response we've had this year from just word of mouth. The 4H/FFA auction for the kids to buy steers for the market steer class will be ultrasounding the calves this year, they;ll have first shot. I have 2 individuals that want steers, one that wants heifers and 2 of the marketing associations are interested. Don;t know how any of it will pan out for a couple of weeks but all of this is just from a reputation of having good calves/cows. It takes time to gain a good reputation but it sure opens up a whole new window of opportunity.
I guess that's part of the advantage of going back to be a small time producer, you get rid of the poorer stuff, or less good may be more accurate, and people start to notice that you may have fewer head but they're consistant.
The point being that smaller producers can get a good price and turn a profit if they have quality and jump through the necesarry hoops, i.e., castrate, vaccinate, precondition, EID. Start small with good stock, breed towards a goal, control costs and build a reputation.
I guess that's part of the advantage of going back to be a small time producer, you get rid of the poorer stuff, or less good may be more accurate, and people start to notice that you may have fewer head but they're consistant.
The point being that smaller producers can get a good price and turn a profit if they have quality and jump through the necesarry hoops, i.e., castrate, vaccinate, precondition, EID. Start small with good stock, breed towards a goal, control costs and build a reputation.
msscamp":ukpfpq61 said:
In this area if your calves grade they are comingled with others and sold in a group. So the buyer has no idea was cattle are in the ring. Once in a while you see a group sell and they are annouced as one man's cattle, the buyer can find out whose they are but not until after they sell.
There is one auction in this area that sells each person's cattle without grouping them, never been to it though.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
There are many routes. Direct sales to the consumer work best for me. Word of mouth to that end goes a long way.
Good steak and a sure thing are what consumers want.
In the end, it is all about the consumer, is it not?
Good steak and a sure thing are what consumers want.
In the end, it is all about the consumer, is it not?
dieselbeef":11pmp1lc said:
I do not believe it is a matter of not 'being up to speed', I believe it is a matter of the differences in the areas - Wyoming is pretty much strictly an agriculture state. We do not have big business, we do not have any type of industry (except for the coal mines) - we just have agriculture. Selling 10 at a time is usually not how it's done here - people have operating loans to pay off, and the calf crop does that. Owners wean, and they sell en masse - all of their steers (and sometimes their heifers, as well) go to the sale at once. Some feed over the winter, most do not. There are special calf sales held at the local salebarn a couple of times per week (in addition to the regular sales on Wednesday and Friday) from about the mid part of September through about the first part of November. Any heifer calves that don't make the cut are also sold at these special calf sales. It's the 8th of October, and I've been listening to the calves bawling at the feedlot just south of us for quite a few weeks now. As far as my comments about a feedlot knowing where their calves came from, have you ever noticed that a lot of herds have a distinctive look about them? Have you not noticed that people love to talk? All it takes is talking to enough people, and you'll find the one that can answer your questions. You lose your shirt on a pen of 30-50 calves - probably more - and it would be well worth the time. Maybe that is not true for Florida, but it is true here.
HAY MAKER
Well-known member
Range Cattle Research and Education Center
Certified Calf Preconditioning
Are There Financial Incentives for Weaning Calves
on the Ranch Prior to Shipping?
Dr. John Arthington
Seventeen years ago I was a student in the Animal Sciences Department at Purdue University. I can recall the first discussion that I participated in relative to the merits of calf preconditioning. Even at that time, I remembered how surprised I was of how little we understood of the financial advantages to this management procedure. Today, I continue to seek answers to this important concept. One of the major problems with the term "calf preconditioning" is that it means something different to everyone. Preconditioning is a generic term that refers to any of numerous management procedures that may be applied to a calf prior to shipping from the ranch or farm. These include, but are not limited to, castration, dehorning, creep feeding, weaning before shipping, and vaccination. Reasons that a cow/calf producer may wish to precondition their calves are numerous, but the underlying goal is to increase the value of the calf being sold or the productivity of the calf being retained. Unfortunately, the data supporting either of these goals is weak at best.
A recent publication from Colorado State University (JAVMA, Vol 229, No. 9, November 1, 2006) reviewed the impact of defined health programs on the sale price of beef calves marketed through a livestock video auction service. Their data includes 11 years of sales (1995 through 2005) and incorporates over 3 million feeder calves. To my knowledge this is the largest data set ever analyzed to evaluate the financial merits of calf preconditioning. Although the study analyzed several components relative to the value of preconditioned calves, I will review only two that are familiar management options among Florida cow/calf producers. These include the V34 program, which involves a pre-weaning administration at branding of a vaccine against 7 types of clostridia and at 2 to 4 weeks prior to shipping vaccines against IBR, PI3, BVDV, BRSV, and M haemolytica or P multocida (or both). The second program, V45, involves a very similar vaccination schedule (see report for specifics), but also involves booster vaccinations and the weaning of calves at the ranch for a minimum of 45 days before shipping. For many Florida cow/calf producers, these two preconditioning programs are commonly discussed, but the financial rewards for adopting one over the other has not been well understood.
The results of this study are revealing. The average weight of all calves in the study was 575 lb, a common weaning weight target for Florida cow/calf producers. Calves enrolled in these preconditioning programs were valued at approximately $14 and $38 more per head than calves with no Certified preconditioning program. The costs associated with the purchase of vaccines are an important, but highly variable factor. Among other things, this price variability is based upon the volume of product purchased and differences among specific brand types. A general cost of product between the two systems can be assessed at $3.25 and $4.75 per calf for V34 and V45 programs, respectively. As we examine these figures, it appears very likely that the V34 program (or other similar preconditioning programs) provides a positive financial return to the cow/calf producer. Less the costs of product, the average premium paid for V34 calves exceeds $10 per calf. The net return to the producer would be this premium less additional labor costs associated with working the calves and the variable costs associated with vaccination equipment.
Now, let's examine the value of the V45 program. On average, the sale price of the V45 calves was about $24 more than the V34 calves. Less the estimated costs of additional vaccine products needed to qualify for the V45 program, the average premium was about $19.25 over the V34 calves. The net return to the producer would be this premium less the labor costs associated with working the calves (at least one additional time to V34) and the variable costs associated with vaccination equipment and feed and management for the 45 days they will remain on the ranch prior to shipping. When these considerations are examined, the financial merit of the V45 program becomes troublesome. In our experiences, the V45 calves consume an average of 10 lb of feed daily when managed on good pastures for 45 days prior to shipping. Feed costs have typically averaged $40 to $60 per calf depending on annual prices of grain and delivery options (bulk or bagged). There is also death loss to consider. A load of calves (85 calves at 575 lb) ready to be shipped on the V34 program, but kept on the ranch for 45 days may experience some loss. Our annual average is 1.75% (1 to 2 calves per year). These costs must also be considered. Compared to the V34 program, V45 calves are costing the producer an additional $60 for feed, death loss, and additional vaccine. Averaged over 11 years on the sale of 3 million calves, this $60 investment has returned about $24. Even if a producer's feed and labor options are much less than average, the margin of loss represented here may be difficult to overcome.
The V34 / V45 comparison above is unique to cow/calf producers marketing truckload lots of calves. The ability to achieve this marketing threshold provides significant value and flexibility to the cow/calf producer. For producers unable to market truckload quantities, the V45 program, and other similar Certified Preconditioning programs, offers opportunities for producers to commingle groups of calves to achieve truckload lots. In these situations, the added value of weaning the calf on the ranch prior to marketing may be greater than the examples described above. Further, as the value of V34 calves has remained fairly steady, the value of V45 calves in this study increased in the later years of data collection. This response may indicate that feeder calf buyers may be beginning to place more value on calves weaned at the ranch prior to shipping.
Certified Calf Preconditioning
Are There Financial Incentives for Weaning Calves
on the Ranch Prior to Shipping?
Dr. John Arthington
Seventeen years ago I was a student in the Animal Sciences Department at Purdue University. I can recall the first discussion that I participated in relative to the merits of calf preconditioning. Even at that time, I remembered how surprised I was of how little we understood of the financial advantages to this management procedure. Today, I continue to seek answers to this important concept. One of the major problems with the term "calf preconditioning" is that it means something different to everyone. Preconditioning is a generic term that refers to any of numerous management procedures that may be applied to a calf prior to shipping from the ranch or farm. These include, but are not limited to, castration, dehorning, creep feeding, weaning before shipping, and vaccination. Reasons that a cow/calf producer may wish to precondition their calves are numerous, but the underlying goal is to increase the value of the calf being sold or the productivity of the calf being retained. Unfortunately, the data supporting either of these goals is weak at best.
A recent publication from Colorado State University (JAVMA, Vol 229, No. 9, November 1, 2006) reviewed the impact of defined health programs on the sale price of beef calves marketed through a livestock video auction service. Their data includes 11 years of sales (1995 through 2005) and incorporates over 3 million feeder calves. To my knowledge this is the largest data set ever analyzed to evaluate the financial merits of calf preconditioning. Although the study analyzed several components relative to the value of preconditioned calves, I will review only two that are familiar management options among Florida cow/calf producers. These include the V34 program, which involves a pre-weaning administration at branding of a vaccine against 7 types of clostridia and at 2 to 4 weeks prior to shipping vaccines against IBR, PI3, BVDV, BRSV, and M haemolytica or P multocida (or both). The second program, V45, involves a very similar vaccination schedule (see report for specifics), but also involves booster vaccinations and the weaning of calves at the ranch for a minimum of 45 days before shipping. For many Florida cow/calf producers, these two preconditioning programs are commonly discussed, but the financial rewards for adopting one over the other has not been well understood.
The results of this study are revealing. The average weight of all calves in the study was 575 lb, a common weaning weight target for Florida cow/calf producers. Calves enrolled in these preconditioning programs were valued at approximately $14 and $38 more per head than calves with no Certified preconditioning program. The costs associated with the purchase of vaccines are an important, but highly variable factor. Among other things, this price variability is based upon the volume of product purchased and differences among specific brand types. A general cost of product between the two systems can be assessed at $3.25 and $4.75 per calf for V34 and V45 programs, respectively. As we examine these figures, it appears very likely that the V34 program (or other similar preconditioning programs) provides a positive financial return to the cow/calf producer. Less the costs of product, the average premium paid for V34 calves exceeds $10 per calf. The net return to the producer would be this premium less additional labor costs associated with working the calves and the variable costs associated with vaccination equipment.
Now, let's examine the value of the V45 program. On average, the sale price of the V45 calves was about $24 more than the V34 calves. Less the estimated costs of additional vaccine products needed to qualify for the V45 program, the average premium was about $19.25 over the V34 calves. The net return to the producer would be this premium less the labor costs associated with working the calves (at least one additional time to V34) and the variable costs associated with vaccination equipment and feed and management for the 45 days they will remain on the ranch prior to shipping. When these considerations are examined, the financial merit of the V45 program becomes troublesome. In our experiences, the V45 calves consume an average of 10 lb of feed daily when managed on good pastures for 45 days prior to shipping. Feed costs have typically averaged $40 to $60 per calf depending on annual prices of grain and delivery options (bulk or bagged). There is also death loss to consider. A load of calves (85 calves at 575 lb) ready to be shipped on the V34 program, but kept on the ranch for 45 days may experience some loss. Our annual average is 1.75% (1 to 2 calves per year). These costs must also be considered. Compared to the V34 program, V45 calves are costing the producer an additional $60 for feed, death loss, and additional vaccine. Averaged over 11 years on the sale of 3 million calves, this $60 investment has returned about $24. Even if a producer's feed and labor options are much less than average, the margin of loss represented here may be difficult to overcome.
The V34 / V45 comparison above is unique to cow/calf producers marketing truckload lots of calves. The ability to achieve this marketing threshold provides significant value and flexibility to the cow/calf producer. For producers unable to market truckload quantities, the V45 program, and other similar Certified Preconditioning programs, offers opportunities for producers to commingle groups of calves to achieve truckload lots. In these situations, the added value of weaning the calf on the ranch prior to marketing may be greater than the examples described above. Further, as the value of V34 calves has remained fairly steady, the value of V45 calves in this study increased in the later years of data collection. This response may indicate that feeder calf buyers may be beginning to place more value on calves weaned at the ranch prior to shipping.
BC
Well-known member
Things are changing. There used to be more yearling operators that would take in calves from all over, straighten them out and graze them until big enough to send to feed yard. They realized they were dealing with a high risk commodity (sale barn calves) and were willing to gamble that they could keep the calves alive and puton some cheap gain. When it worked and the market was good the stocker man makes good money, when death loses are higher or cattle don't perform as well as expected he looses his shirt. That breed of operator is dying off.
Their sons and daughters are like everyone else - they want an easier job with more security. They don't have the time, knowledge or want to to work like dad did. They will run yearlings on the land they have, but want to take the risk out of straightening the cattle out. That is why I think over time that backgrounding will become the normal way calves are sold with no premiums for doing it. Those that do not do it will be docked by some entrepenuer that is willing to castrate, tip horns, give shots and dodctor sick calves.
Their sons and daughters are like everyone else - they want an easier job with more security. They don't have the time, knowledge or want to to work like dad did. They will run yearlings on the land they have, but want to take the risk out of straightening the cattle out. That is why I think over time that backgrounding will become the normal way calves are sold with no premiums for doing it. Those that do not do it will be docked by some entrepenuer that is willing to castrate, tip horns, give shots and dodctor sick calves.
OP
OP
dieselbeef
Well-known member
haymaker..
unless im reading it wrong...you have made my point.
thank you.
also not included in the study is my trucking costs. diesel was quite a bit cheaper in 06 than now. i dont mind doin the labor as i always have in the past cuz i enjoy the work. even at free labor the vac costs are higher than quoted and at 10 xtra per head profit...can the chance of injury to me and my calfs as well as the free labor really worth the effort
im still on the fence about this as the gain is so minimal that it almost cannot be justified...ill be callin my local broker here to see what they have to say about it and i will let yall know what they say...
unless im reading it wrong...you have made my point.
thank you.
also not included in the study is my trucking costs. diesel was quite a bit cheaper in 06 than now. i dont mind doin the labor as i always have in the past cuz i enjoy the work. even at free labor the vac costs are higher than quoted and at 10 xtra per head profit...can the chance of injury to me and my calfs as well as the free labor really worth the effort
im still on the fence about this as the gain is so minimal that it almost cannot be justified...ill be callin my local broker here to see what they have to say about it and i will let yall know what they say...
