What do you think of this bull? Need Opinions - Update

[BC]

So in picking a young bull should he look like a miniature of a grown bull? Am I going to have to pay lots of money to get a good one?We talked to a local breeder and he wanted $1800, can't do that.:

A good bull should be worth what your 5 best steer calves bring or 3 bred cows. If you are selling $360 calves then $1800 would be about right or if 3 of your best bred cows are only worth about $600 then $1800 would be about right.

Don't scimp on bull power!!

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

So, does the tailhead being too far forward have something to do with delivery and not fertility?

Tailhead too far forward has been linked to long term fertility problems, and it points to a general problem in the conformation of the animal, which may lead to lameness earlier in his life.

Its good to know you're not keeping replacements from that bull, however as a commercial cattleman, your first job is to make money. The more bull you have, the easier this is. Think of it this way: for a given weight of calf, there will be around a 15 cent spread between low end and high end (not including dinks and frozen eared calves that get discounted heavily). A good bull will help put that extra 15 cents into your pocket, so it doesn't take long to pay for him. For each 8 weight calf, thats an extra 120 bucks/calf. Even if you've only got 10 calves to sell, thats $1200 extra. Heck, even a 5 cent premium still nets you $400 more on 10 calves. 3 years later, the more expensive bull has paid for himself.

Around here, I expect a bull to breed a minimum of 50 animals. I'll spend $5 - 6000 on a good bull (if I have to, however some of my best bulls were $2000), because I know he's going to let my cows kick out the best calves that are going to sell into top pens. As an added bonus, when demand falls off, the top end steers usually fall last, and the least. That means that 15 cent spread I spoke of earlier may open up even more.

Of course I don't know what the rest of your cow herd looks like, but the bull you posted isn't going to help you get top end calves.

Rod

 

[SEC]

I got a lesson from a good bull and a common bull years ago.

Dad always thought $1500 was enough to spend on a bull, didn't know what the other guys were getting out of a bull that cost $2500. We had good commercial calves but they were always a nickel off the top of the market. I asked the buyers one year what we needed to do different. He said put some hair on them, they were slick haired calves.

Dad got out of cows and we bought a new bull and he cost us $3100. When we weaned our first set of calves we gained 70lbs in weaning weight with no difference in calving date. Plus we were then at the top of the market. That bull paid the difference on the first set of calves from him, we used him until he was 5 and then sold him for our original purchase price.

Dad was floored, I was very proud of the whole thing!

 

[bullpeddler]

The old saying "you get what you pay for" applies to most bull purchases at the sale barn unless it is a planned and promoted bull sale with superior genetics. Most bulls that end up at the sale barn do so because the have problems or couldn't be sold as breeding bulls to knowledgeable cattlemen. So, if your goal is not to make a profit and you are just playing around with a few cows and need to get 'em settled--go ahead and use this bull. If, on the other hand, you are serious about the cow business consider investing in a quality bull. The bull is (or will become) 50 percent of your cow herd so it doesn't make since to cut corners here.

 

[preston39]

Points to ponder;

""What Is A Bull Worth?
By Dr. Wayne Wagner, WVU Extension Livestock Specialist


A bull is very much the same, in terms of genetic input, to a beef herd as a bag of seed corn is to a farmer who raises corn. There is one large difference, which is that the seed corn producer provides both the male and female side of the equation ( the fertilized egg in cattle ) and therefore determines the genetic input from both parents instead of just the male side when a beef producer decides on a bull to breed cows to. A bag of seed corn may cost from $60-120 and a bushel of corn is worth $2.00. What is a bull worth?

Some say a bull is worth 4 to 5 weaned calves or 2.5 to 3 fed cattle.

500 lb calf
Price/lb 4 head 5 head
.90 $1800 $2250
$1.00 $2000 $2500
$1.10 $2200 $2750
$1.20 $2400 $3000
$1.20 $2400 $3000


600 lb calf
Price/lb 4 head 5 head
.90 $2160 $2700
$1.00 $2400 $3000
$1.10 $2640 $3300
$1.20 $2880 $3600
$1.30 $3120 $3900


1200 lb steer
Price/lb 2.5 head 3 head
.80 $2400 $2880
.85 $2550 $3060
.90 $2700 $3240
.95 $2850 $3420 "
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The above is interesting and corelates with an experience.

A local herdsman buys the cheapest bull he can find...with the stated attitude that..."he(the bull) produces nothing therefore isn't worth much". He plants 15-29 acres corn annually. He is known for takng a mag. glass to the co-op and examine the seed corn before purchase. 8)

For mini herds(5-20) ...find a neighbor(s) to join in on the investment so that all can have the use of a good bull with minimum investment. Remember a good bull requires no more maintenance than a bad bull from the sale barn.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

GO - I agree this is not the best phenotypical bull you could get, but, he has performed as far as his own weight gain, going on the fact that he weighed 1130/1235 sometime prior to 13 months of age. That's far from being great for a Char, but with his length & potential to gain, his offspring should gain well for you.
I have seen MUCH worse posted on these boards.
Now, I am a firm believer in the fact that you get what you pay for, and believe you should pay as much as you can for a bull. He is the one most important purchase you will make in the beef cow/calf industry.
For a Char, he appears to be smooth shouldered, which would be a major concern of mine for the breed - smooth shoulder = easier calving. Buying thru the sale barn - you bought blind - you don't know what his own birth weight was, so I would be concerned to use him on heifers - but it doesn't sound like you have any heifers, so that's good.
Again, he is not awful, but what little we can see of your cows, he does not look like an improver. Some herds, he may have been a great improvement. And he may be an improvement on SOME of your cows. But, you don't plan on keeping any replacements, so he should give you ## of meat to sell.

 

[Gate Opener]

Thanks everybody for the input. A lot of food for thought here. We will keep him for a while if his trich test comes back alright. I was trying to wait on that before I posted but it still hasn't come back. We'll be on the lookout for a better bull at a decent price so we can trade in our cow freshener. ;-)

 

[Brandonm2]

Gate Opener - When I read your post, I immediately copied the picture, grabbed a sheet of paper and itemized the points I wanted to comment about.

Before I answered the post, I decided to read some of the other posts first. THEN I came to Diamond S Cattle Company and his comments. I threw my comments in the trash, because Diamond S said almost EXACTLY the same things I had on my note pad, so there was no reason to duplicate it. He has it Absolutely correct! The cow standing behind him is a much better phenotype representative than the white bull. I would NOT use that bull - you will lose about three years of improvement in your replacements if you do, I don't care how bad your herd is now.

DOC HARRIS

I agree completely. I can't comment on the bull without plagiarizing Diamond S. He IS too shallow ribbed, isn't wide sprung enough, isn't thick enough, and I would be absolutely scared too death of a group of replacement heifers that looked like him. I THINK I would like him a little better IF you poured grain into him for the next six months; BUT there is not enough there too make me think he would be even an average Char bull even after doing all that too cover up his flaws. Buy a better bull.

 

[la4angus]

BUT there is not enough there too make me think he would be even an average Char bull even after doing all that too cover up his flaws. Buy a better bull.

Gate Opener has already told us that she isn't after quality. She only wants a cow freshener and if you buy any of the hfr calves at the sale barn, that is your problem.

 

[Brandonm2]

The title of the string is "what do you think of this bull?". ALL I did was answer her question.

 

[Gate Opener]

The title of the string is "what do you think of this bull?". ALL I did was answer her question.

You did good Brandonm2. I asked the question and you gave me your opinion. Thank you. La4 is just slamming me. La4 you should have read the last sentence in my last post. Besides that I sell our calves at weaning. I can't imagine someone buying a calf at that age at the sale barn for a replacement heifer.

SEC I'm curious, what breed of bull was it that you bought?

 

[SF]

...We talked to a local breeder and he wanted $1800, can't do that....

Know several breeders here that raise commerical cattle only. A bull that isn't worth more than $3,000 isn't allowed on their place. If you have a small herd of say less than 40 cows. Your bull is half your herd. Keep that in mind as you select bulls. JMO

 

[SF]

...We talked to a local breeder and he wanted $1800, can't do that....

Know several breeders here that raise commerical cattle only. A bull that isn't worth more than $3,000 isn't allowed on their place. If you have a small herd of say less than 40 cows. Your bull is half your herd. Keep that in mind as you select bulls. JMO

 

[Gate Opener]

I there full coverage insurance for a bull? Would that be too expensive?

Here's the deal. A few years ago we thought we would make a lot of money by getting into horse business-raising expensive horses. ha ha, I know. Bought a mare $$$, spent a lot of money getting her bred. Mare couldn't deliver foal (which had died) because it was in really bad position, vet had to cut it out. In the process of doing this vet accidently injured horse. Spent $$$$ trying to save horse. Horse died. Also had a colt get injured (freak accident) spent several thousand dollars on vet bills. Colt had to be put down.

So, I'm leary about having a lot of money in any one animal. What do you guys do? Do you carry insurance?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

So, I'm leary about having a lot of money in any one animal. What do you guys do? Do you carry insurance?

It'll depend. On the pricy bulls, past $5000, I'll carry breeders insurance. On the less expensive bulls, I don't worry about it as its too expensive (the last policy I had was $1800/yr). While bulls certainly can and do get hurt to the point that they can't breed, its not all that common. I've never bothered to keep track of it, but I can only recall one bull of mine in 30 years ever sustaining an injury that prevented breeding (he laid down in wet hay around the feeder and froze his testicles).

Rod

 

[SF]

In my opinion the insurance is too expensive. I get my bulls collected before I turn them out. This way if they get injured and can't breed it is not a complete loss. This is my insurance.

Bulls are expensive, but an essential part of all beef operations whether you are breeding for seedstock or raising beef. You should always be trying to produce calves that are better than your cows and your bulls (even if you are just taking them to the sale barn). You should always buy the best bull you can afford.

 

[Brandonm2]

The title of the string is "what do you think of this bull?". ALL I did was answer her question.

You did good Brandonm2. I asked the question and you gave me your opinion. Thank you. La4 is just slamming me. La4 you should have read the last sentence in my last post. Besides that I sell our calves at weaning. I can't imagine someone buying a calf at that age at the sale barn for a replacement heifer.

SEC I'm curious, what breed of bull was it that you bought?

People buy heifers at ALL ages for replacements.
I once worked for an outfit (Hogs were our focus) that actually went to the yard and bought 120 ~450-550 lb heifer calves thru the fall runs to be the herd beside a new hog farm. The order buyer avoided any ear calves, straight Herfs, dairy calves, straight Chars, straight Simms (that was when they were yellow or red white face), or else none ran thru the ring that day. They were not a BAD set of young cows when they calved two years later and the black calf crop was pretty uniform.

 

[la4angus]

I can't imagine someone buying a calf at that age at the sale barn for a replacement heifer.

I know people that do it all the time.

Weaning age is about 6 to 8 mo, sometimes as much as 9 mo. Take her home for a few mo. to see how her disposition is and let her get used to the place before breeding in 6 to 8 mo. See how she grows. Be sure that she has all her shots. Many reasons to buy replacements at weaning.


As far as slamming you, this is a quote from you:

We bought the bull at the sale barn for $875. His weight was 1130#.

We don't keep any replacements. Thought about it just recently but decided it would cost too much. I would rather buy a bred cow or pair when we need more cows. All of our calves go to the sale barn. Now that being said, does it matter if the bull is not perfect in this situation? Will the calves bring enough to justify the cost of the nicer bull?

 

[Gate Opener]

Yes I asked if it mattered if the bull was not perfect in this situation and I asked if the calves would bring enough to justify the cost of the nicer bull. Then after being supplied data which suggests that I can possibly recoup the added cost of a better bull I then said

We'll be on the lookout for a better bull at a decent price so we can trade in our cow freshener. ;-)

Thanks. Now I know that some people buy calves for potential replacements.

 

[dun]

Now I know that some people buy calves for potential replacements.

Some even by cows out of the kill pen to be used as breeders

dun